After playing Wrath I’m reminded why they pruned abilities

[Lordofbelbol]

if u don't want to use them, don't put them on keybind or on ur bar in first place
half of those abilities were situational that can be ignored (they didn't exist for years in first place...), don't remove my ability so u can enjoy it, u can and will 100% play perfectly fine pve without them
those abilities made massive change in pvp land
Some abilities i still buffled why remove them, like warlock instant cast that increase duration of dots, it does shit dmg, it was drop of dps, but it was amazing perfect 'oh shit' button that u use if u MUST move and still want to keep ur dots, which surprising happens a lot more than u think, this ability was perfect design: sacrifice dmg for movement to use
What we have to replace it? nothing, if u want to move but deal lower dmg, go fuck urself, no more KJ cunning, no more refresh dots, most ur dots need cast and warlock affliction old status of mobility is dead (u can cast agony and corruption instant.. yay -.-)

tldr: never prun, many ppl played in panda without half their buttons, heck even now u still don't use all ur buttons for pve dps, the difference is now u ignore 2 buttons while MoP u ignored 5, and in pvp using all ur 20 buttons was what differentiate average pvp player to top one, heck u can beat ppl outgearing u with ur skill

exactly

retail biggest problem for me, is lore...
what made me stop play wow in general was wow story, if it goes Zooval was behind all way i just got fed ty unistall
retail current state of lore is disgusting, DF i have NO idea at all about it and find it weird that it is ignored since biggest problem of SL was shit story, i'm worried that DF isn't improvement and i'll just go find sh8t

u probably one of those dps who make dps that use all utilities seems aliens
we had a combo in our guild back then of a mage who does more dmg than any mage of same gear, we had a warlock that did so much dmg that was impossible (he even deals dmg higher than sims, hi slenissh), neither were only one of their class, but for some reason they know how to dps, and i doubt it was by right click 1 or 2 abilities

honestly i never understood the whole zooval behind everything xD seems weird

[plz delete account]

Try some of these macros. I still use them today. They are ones I create for all healers so that I can solo and heal easily, and also dps easily when I’m in a group. Used them for many years.

For other classes, just switch the spell names.

<riest:792769066283827232> __**Holy Priest**__
(1) __Renew/Holy Fire__
#showtooltip
/cast [mod:shift, @Player] Renew; [help, nodead] Renew; [harm, nodead] Holy Fire; Holy Fire

(2) __Flash Heal/Smite__
#showtooltip
/cast [mod:shift, @Player] Flash Heal; [help, nodead] Flash Heal; [harm, nodead] Smite; Smite

(3) __Heal/Shadow Word: Pain__
#showtooltip
/cast [mod:shift, @Player] Heal; [help, nodead] Heal; [harm, nodead] Shadow Word: Pain; Shadow Word: Pain

(4) __Prayer of Mending/Shadow Word: Death__
#showtooltip
/cast [mod:shift, @Player] Prayer of Mending; [help, nodead] Prayer of Mending; [harm, nodead] Shadow Word: Death; Shadow Word: Death

instructions unclear, gift of naaru bound to left click

[Bigbazz]

The reason Classic is so popular is because its simpler than retail, not the other way around...To say the class is ''dumbed down'' now is just silliness when you consider that to play fury war correctly in classic wrath is to just auto attack and occasionally hit one or two buttons lol

Classic Warrior is not more simple than Retail, it's drastically the opposite. Maximising gameplay with Arms/Fury in WOTLK (current classic, and my above example) is far more complex than it is in retail right now, and on top of that you have far more niche use abilities. Fury Warrior in retail is extremely simplistic, now it had some layers of complexity in Shadowlands but that has reduced in DF. Arms is in the same boat, it's a lot more simple than Classic if you compare it with either WOTLK or even TBC with the Slam timing.

To maximise dps in Classic you had to use a swing timer, even while dual wielding and it was optimal to weapon desync manually if you went into sync so you could queue/cancel heroic strike to maintain offhand hits. That remains in WOTLK but now you also have Slam to weave in, Sunder to maintain (because rogues are exposing less) and at the high end of play Rend weaving in battle stance too.. Warrior in dragonflight is a lot more simple, there are very few keybinds required in core PVE gameplay.

The only exception really is Prot because you have to manage your rage between Shield Block, Revenge and Ignore Pain. There is more potential with Prot to plan ahead or to make mistakes that cost, tho the base rotation is fairly simple and a little less active than Prot in WOTLK, Prot in WOTLK is mostly fool-proof with all rage spent on threat. Even still, WOTLK Prot more enjoyable to play in my opinion, because it feels more like an active DPS spec.

[Sorrior]

WotLK is the prime reason mouses with buttons were designed for MMOs

But, to be honest, is pretty fine. In average, you will have 10/15 keys tops that you actually use often in any given spec.
I remember my holy priest consistently using 14 spells on every fight. Fun times!

That is pretty fine.

I know it got me to get the old steelseries wow mouse. I loved that OG one just the right size and button selections. Also what got me to start keybibding stuff more.

That said keep the skills i loved enh back then.

[Mahcake]

Personally, I love and always loved having so many abilities in games. Even if I used one of the skills just once per day, it's still awesome.

1) It makes you feel like your character is really making/has made some progress.
2) It makes you feel powerful having so many abilities and utilities. It's badass having 3-5 full bars with different tools.
3) It makes the game kinda harder and more complex.
4) It feels like a RPG.

I hated that they made WoW almost as a some kind of DotA or action game like Diablo with just 5 skills rotations. DF with it's talent tree brought back having many different abilities and made the game more RPG again. I really have no idea why they thought removing skills like Eye of the Beast, buffs or some Aspects was a good idea (I still hate that Aspects are still CDs and not like auras). It didn't help anything and just removed some fun options out of the game.
It's awesome using EotB in Classic with my pet, who can stealth and scout some buildings, caves etc. I couldn't do that a few years ago in retail. Just why?

[Bigbazz]

I literally just gave you the #1 parser who 3 ou of this dmg done is from auto attacks and passive damage...Compare that to retail warriors who are using many more abilities normally as well as in their proper rotation/priority..on top of them using all those abilities in an inherent more complex environment as well and it's just not really a comparison imho.

Classic is fun and amazing and I honestly prefer it over retail at times, but to call it more complex is just flat wrong imo.

But you're not even understanding what is taking place in the screenshot.

1. Heroic Strike is off GCD so it's in addition to your main rotation. You also wanna cancel it if rage is too low, after the OH has hit. That means you have to track your swing timer on both hands at all times.
2. BT/WW - Use on cooldown, simple enough
3. Slam - It's a proc, you want to weave it between BT/WW, but it has high DPR so you prio it during lower rage.
4. Execute - Has very high DPR at minimum rage, very low at high rage. Optimal use is a puzzle, generally lower prio.
5. Weave sunder, without delaying BT/WW or wasting a slam
6. Shatter throw (required by most raids) - Battle > Shatter > Berserker > Bloodrage to replace rage (Shatter resets swing to 0)
7. Rend - Is only used when BT/WW will not get delayed, no slam proc and no Sunder to refresh, and low rage (between 10-30) because it requires 2 stance swaps and when the auto-attack on the switch back to Berserker Stance will land to replace the rage without causing a delay/starvation, with ideally enough time to queue a HS to ensure the offhand lands, even if you have to cancel it later.


Retail fury has been "mash keyboard, dump rage with rampage" for so long. Like any build there is some level of mastery to it but it's laughably less complex, it has been turned into a simple build/burn class where you can mash keys with a nice margin for error. Looking at the damage breakdown and using that as some sort of evidence is nonsensical because you're not even considering what it involves.

The pinnacle of dps optimisation for Fury in recent years has been to press your cooldowns at the right time, and with anger management it was generally just "ASAP". Because the base rotation was just a prio of Execute > RB 2stacks > BT > RB 1 stack > Whirlwind. Rampage to maintain enrage/dump rage. In M+ You Bladestorm and then spam whirlwind for a few seconds aimlessly. All the rage management is gone, you just build rage and then dump it with rampage because all spells cost no rage.

On multi-target there was some gaming to it, on single target just bleh. And don't get me started on Arms in DF, as it is in prepatch it's just a giant execute button, the only complexity is building around your cooldowns which is basic level stuff.



Old screenshot from when I briefly did Castle Nathria Mythic prog, this is Xymox first kill. The fight itself was obviously on another planet compared to any Classic boss, which is where the difficulty lies. But you can't tell anything from this breakdown much like you cant with your WOTLK SS. I was using spell reflect and Bladestorm to clear traps, leap/charge for mobility to survive, all the complexity is in how you use what you have to beat the fight mechanics.

The dps tho was just amounting to pressing something every GCD, maintaining enrage by dumping rage with rampage. The whole success of the spec really revolved around just getting big burst windows, and logging well really just meant having a guild that did overall high dps so you could maximise bloodlust uptime, no different to Classic WOTLK in that sense.

Retail classes are 4 button wonders with big CD's while retail content is an olympic event. Classic classes have degenerate levels of optimisation, way more niche use abilities while doing content that is braindead easy.

[ZazuuPriest]

-you dont have to bind 20 totems
-you basically set the 3 options of 4 and never adjust them
-picking the right weapon buff takes zero intelligence or effort
-picking the right shock takes zero intelligence or effort
-if youre dpsing you do not have to bind all the heals, if youre healing you dont even need your spells on your bars you can just mouseover
-there are what like 2-4 talents that actually go on your bars for any spec
-you can macro many abilities together into a single bind
-choosing glyphs is basically a 1 time thing

-you do not need to bind any healing abilities in shadow
-the description of an ability is inconsequential

-you do not need to bind every aura
-you do not need to bind every hand (learn to use mouse overs)
-you do not need to bind every blessing or any (use pally power)
-you do not need to bind any heal except flash heal so you dont waste art of war procs waiting for a cd of exorcism
-raid cds lol
-there are 2 personal cds

theres a difference between "needing pruning" and people being idiots

[Bigbazz]

If you want to dive into anything you can try and make it look complicated enough if you want to spell out every single detail about it, sure that's all this post is. I mean go look at the diff in icy-veins guides as well for Fury warrior, retail vs classic. The same page "Rotation" of the guild is almost twice as long for retail lol, and it would be a lot more if the classic version didn't chew up so much space to just explain what an ability is/does...

Classic: https://www.icy-veins.com/wow-classi...owns-abilities

Retail: https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/fury-w...owns-abilities

Retail is just more complex than classic lol. I'm not saying that's a good thing either one way or the other, but to say differently, again, is just flat out wrong. It sounds like you don't really play retail much and are just assuming with a lot of things due to prior experiences at some point years past.

That classic guide you've linked is for Vanilla, and we're talking about WOTLK. You're 2 expansions removed from what we're talking about. As well as that, the retail guide you've linked has 2 covenants at the same time selected.



Not so complex is it. And besides, most of the difficulty with WOTLK Warrior comes from the need to manage rage, using on-next attacks to maximise offhand hit chance and maintaining debuffs (sunder) around the rotation. Modern retail doesn't have any chores associated, no real rage management, you're not adding multiple layers of complexity for small dps gains (which the top ranks in Fury absolutely are, and you're not seeing that in the damage breakdown, but you can see it if you look at the log in detail).

[casecase89]

this is actual World of Warcraft

I kek'd so hard i my face hit my desk harder than a facerolling wotlk paladin lol.

1 button macros say more than enough about wotlk and it being "real" wow lol.

[Mahcake]

I kek'd so hard i my face hit my desk harder than a facerolling wotlk paladin lol.

1 button macros say more than enough about wotlk and it being "real" wow lol.

In 15+ years I've played this game, I never met someone who has or had 1 button macro for anything.

And if people want to use it, that's their decision but ultimately it says nothing about the game. Just about the player.

[Kehego]

Classic kiddies be huffing copium tbh but such is the nature of man

also lol at the guy saying "manage" rage when you L I T E R A L L Y just hit whatever lights up and queue heroic strike

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Lets agree to disagree.

I mean you have no counter-argument so i'ma have to pass.

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After playing Dragonflight Warrior, I was reminded why I didn't like pruned characters. It's like the class is so dumbed down and while much of the utility is still available in talents, you're talking about a tradeoff for abilities that used to be baseline. Even with all the old baseline abilities talented the class feels barebones compared to playing in WOTLK where you have so many more niche uses.

Feel really underwhelmed with Arms in Dragonflight, playing WOTLK just makes that so much more obvious. The talent tree shouldn't have taken old baseline stuff and then made them a trade off, which is really what is. Classes needed pruning after MOP perhaps, but WOD overdid the pruning and Blizzard have been pruning since, Dragonflight includes a lot of pruning by way of the talent tree.

Edit : Context - My bars/bindings in WOTLK in my Fury build



Heres Fury in Dragonflight Prepatch with the remnants of Shadowlands abilities left on the bars.



And here it is now with what is left, with active abilities in my current Dragonflight build



They have pruned it via the talent trees by providing often more attractive options for those points, particularly for PVE.

nice, you put darkmoon card greatness as a bind, along with weapon sets. What's that? saronite bombs from your bag AND the belt at the same time? whatttttt??? crazy


lmao 2 heroic strike binds

((you're full of shit btw))

[Bigbazz]

Classic kiddies be huffing copium tbh but such is the nature of man

also lol at the guy saying "manage" rage when you L I T E R A L L Y just hit whatever lights up and queue heroic strike

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I mean you have no counter-argument so i'ma have to pass.

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nice, you put darkmoon card greatness as a bind, along with weapon sets. What's that? saronite bombs from your bag AND the belt at the same time? whatttttt??? crazy

1. Greatness isn't a bind, it's a trinket macro that shows whatever trinket is equipped in that slot, actually used for PVP trinket. Seems like should be obvious.
2. Bombs are swapped depending on if I'm spending gold or using free ones, keybinds get swapped a lot. Seems like should be obvious.
3. "Literally just hit whatever and queue heroic strike" - How does it feel to parse 50% mate, lol?
4. Manage rage - Yes, manage rage, something not required in retail, imagine that.
5. Yes mate, you need a heroic strike cancel macro. So one is HS, one is HS + HS cancel, I explained that already
6. Yes weapon sets, because Shield Block equips a shield and weapon + defensive stance, the other set swaps it back... Imagine that!!


Nobody needs to counter argument you when you just point at things and go "look at this random meaningless thing I have seen!!!" I'm surprised you didn't notice I had 2x keybinds for Whirlwind, multiple keybinds for Recklessness in retail etc. In legion I had maybe 4-5 separate cooldown macros, I had a few in SL too, for the period I played it.

Stop being a cunt, and stop being clueless.

[Kehego]

1. Greatness isn't a bind, it's a trinket macro that shows whatever trinket is equipped in that slot, actually used for PVP trinket. Seems like should be obvious.
2. Bombs are swapped depending on if I'm spending gold or using free ones, keybinds get swapped a lot. Seems like should be obvious.
3. "Literally just hit whatever and queue heroic strike" - How does it feel to parse 50% mate, lol?
4. Manage rage - Yes, manage rage, something not required in retail, imagine that.
5. Yes mate, you need a heroic strike cancel macro. So one is HS, one is HS + HS cancel, I explained that already
6. Yes weapon sets, because Shield Block equips a shield and weapon + defensive stance, the other set swaps it back... Imagine that!!


Nobody needs to counter argument you when you just point at things and go "look at this random meaningless thing I have seen!!!" I'm surprised you didn't notice I had 2x keybinds for Whirlwind, multiple keybinds for Recklessness in retail etc. In legion I had maybe 4-5 separate cooldown macros, I had a few in SL too, for the period I played it.

Stop being a cunt, and stop being clueless.

my point is you could 90% of the shit you're calling as "binds" in retail if you so chose... I mean its not like engineering disappeared off the face of the earth
You don't have your healing pot bound in your retail screenshot. Interesting stuff. No invis potion or invis engineering tinker? peculiar.

also you didn't spec for intervene or intim shout or stormbolt. abso-fucking-lutely hilarious


GUYS IF YOU SPEC FOR ALL PASSIVES YOU DON'T HAVE MANY THINGS TO BIND

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1. Greatness isn't a bind, it's a trinket macro that shows whatever trinket is equipped in that slot, actually used for PVP trinket. Seems like should be obvious.
2. Bombs are swapped depending on if I'm spending gold or using free ones, keybinds get swapped a lot. Seems like should be obvious.
3. "Literally just hit whatever and queue heroic strike" - How does it feel to parse 50% mate, lol?
4. Manage rage - Yes, manage rage, something not required in retail, imagine that.
5. Yes mate, you need a heroic strike cancel macro. So one is HS, one is HS + HS cancel, I explained that already
6. Yes weapon sets, because Shield Block equips a shield and weapon + defensive stance, the other set swaps it back... Imagine that!!


Nobody needs to counter argument you when you just point at things and go "look at this random meaningless thing I have seen!!!" I'm surprised you didn't notice I had 2x keybinds for Whirlwind, multiple keybinds for Recklessness in retail etc. In legion I had maybe 4-5 separate cooldown macros, I had a few in SL too, for the period I played it.

Stop being a cunt, and stop being clueless.

Tryhard boomer trying to manufacture outrage.

[Bigbazz]

my point is you could 90% of the shit you're calling as "binds" in retail if you so chose... I mean its not like engineering disappeared off the face of the earth
You don't have your healing pot bound in your retail screenshot. Interesting stuff. No invis potion or invis engineering tinker? peculiar.

Well look at my retail macros, you can see multiple macros for the same abilities, this isn't something that I only do on Classic. I've for years had an excessive amount of keybinds/macros. I don't have an invis potion keybind on my bars because I've not really done any M+ since S1 of Shadowlands, I'm not actively playing the game anymore, I just came back to test Dragonflight and was amazed by how dumbed down everything had become. Like literally what point is there in pointing out I don't have a keybind for invis pot?

The only spec that is really clearly more skill than WOTLK is Prot, because in WOTLK Prot just plays like a dps spec with a 40s cooldown on shield block, while in SL and Dragonflight there is a lot of rage management and choice to be made between maintaining shield block, using ignore pain or spending rage on non-free Revenges.

I hate when people come into these discussions with strawmen too, Retail content is harder so you assume that the classes must also be complex or have a skill requirement when Blizzard have clearly literally designed DF dps Warrior specs to be braindead.

Tryhard boomer trying to manufacture outrage.

Oh wow, what a clever response. People are definitely going to think you're smart with this one mate. Lmao, it was definitely worth you editing your post to add that at the end, especially nice with the full re-quote included.

[Kehego]

Well look at my retail macros, you can see multiple macros for the same abilities, this isn't something that I only do on Classic. I've for years had an excessive amount of keybinds/macros. I don't have an invis potion keybind on my bars because I've not really done any M+ since S1 of Shadowlands, I'm not actively playing the game anymore, I just came back to test Dragonflight and was amazed by how dumbed down everything had become. Like literally what point is there in pointing out I don't have a keybind for invis pot?

The only spec that is really clearly more skill than WOTLK is Prot, because in WOTLK Prot just plays like a dps spec with a 40s cooldown on shield block, while in SL and Dragonflight there is a lot of rage management and choice to be made between maintaining shield block, using ignore pain or spending rage on non-free Revenges.

I hate when people come into these discussions with strawmen too, Retail content is harder so you assume that the classes must also be complex or have a skill requirement when Blizzard have clearly literally designed DF dps Warrior specs to be braindead.

that's not what anyone is saying at all
we're saying that 90% of the buttons you press don't do shit and you're swimming in useless abilities

"i don't play the game but I'm here to comment on how dumbed down it is"

yeah buddy okay.

[Bigbazz]

that's not what anyone is saying at all
we're saying that 90% of the buttons you press don't do shit and you're swimming in useless abilities

"i don't play the game but I'm here to comment on how dumbed down it is"

yeah buddy okay.

I do play the game, I came to the thread after playing the game during prepatch after a long break. I don't do M+ since S1, don't plan to either. Why'd you entirely ignore all the context and meaning in the thread to just come and insult me? Like what exactly is your point here, why did you come in the thread, where have I hurt you?

You going to tell me that Dragonflight Warrior is a high skill class in DPS now? I'd have to question your sanity, go look around and people agree with me, Fury in DF is considered one of the easiest specs in the game, rightly so. You gonna call me a tryhard for playing the game properly in WOTLK just because what I'm supposed to do is roll my face on the keyboard and grey parse just because the content is easy.

Look at this thread title mate, people complaining they have too many keybinds in WOTLK... I think the number of keybinds in WOTLK are fine and I'd prefer if all my utility in DF wasn't turned into a talent that I have better options for. I want all that utility back to baseline, do you disagree? These 4button wonder specs with no niche utility in DF are just shite.

[Bigbazz]

lol if only you had to try as hard in wotlk classic as you are here on these forums

I'm not having to try hard when we're talking about WOTLK and somebody (who would that be mate? I wonder who would do that?) links a vanilla guide. Nobody said WOTLK was hard, I said that WOTLK dps Warrior was more complex than DF dps Warrior, which really isn't saying a lot is it. Still, that was enough to trigger all the people in the thread who don't even play dps Warrior but are upset because "classic".

[Kehego]

I'm not having to try hard when we're talking about WOTLK and somebody (who would that be mate? I wonder who would do that?) links a vanilla guide. Nobody said WOTLK was hard, I said that WOTLK dps Warrior was more complex than DF dps Warrior, which really isn't saying a lot is it. Still, that was enough to trigger all the people in the thread who don't even play dps Warrior but are upset because "classic".

I mean I do, and I'm telling you that you're wrong because you're trying to 1) min/max on classic and 2) do not play retail

But go off pal.

also min/maxing in classic where it literally do not matter.

[Bigbazz]

do not play retail

I've been playing retail in prepatch. Why else would I be here talking about it?

also min/maxing in classic where it literally do not matt

You should maybe just skip ahead and make a blog post to tell everyone who plays Classic that they are playing the game wrong too. Rather than addressing people one at a time like this. I didn't realise that I was playing the game wrong.

[Dalinos]

I've been playing retail in prepatch. Why else would I be here talking about it?



You should maybe just skip ahead and make a blog post to tell everyone who plays Classic that they are playing the game wrong too. Rather than addressing people one at a time like this. I didn't realise that I was playing the game wrong.

You're the one here trying to make a case that WOTLK is more complex than retail. It's not. That's just fact. You've had an argument with the truth it seems, and you cannot accept that.