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  1. #61
    The Lightbringer Jazzhands's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imnotadentist View Post



    How so? I leveled my toon to max level, i did all the quests to unlock the race. Its not going to affect any sort of combat, it just makes production faster.
    You seem to be completely ignoring Crafting Orders and the effects that faster production can have on them. Combat isn't the only end game activity, so I'm still not sure why it matters that a crafting racial has no effect on combat and why it can remain a big advantage over others because of that.

    And again, you'll be able to get back all that speed and more when the actual expansion launches. I don't see why this is such a big deal.
    Last edited by Jazzhands; 2022-11-12 at 07:48 PM.

  2. #62
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocksteady 87 View Post
    Since it's inconsequential, as they said, why bother nerfing it?
    Because we're not talking about what Blizzard thinks? It's the poster who called the skill inconsequential. So if they-- as in, the poster-- thinks the skill is inconsequential, why would they care if it got nerfed or not? It's about the poster's opinion, not Blizzard's.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  3. #63
    Field Marshal Imnotadentist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzhands View Post
    You seem to be completely ignoring Crafting Orders and the effects that faster production can have on them. Combat isn't the only end game activity, so I'm still not sure why it matters that a crafting racial has no effect on combat and why it can remain a big advantage over others because of that.

    And again, you'll be able to get back all that speed and more when the actual expansion launches. I don't see why this is such a big deal.
    It doesnt increase the crafting ORDER speed, just the crafting of my toon. How in the heck do you not understand that? It wouldnt buff any npcs crafting speed at all; so my crafting orders would still be the exact same speed as anyone elses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Because we're not talking about what Blizzard thinks? It's the poster who called the skill inconsequential. So if they-- as in, the poster-- thinks the skill is inconsequential, why would they care if it got nerfed or not? It's about the poster's opinion, not Blizzard's.
    I meant to say that it was inconsequecial to the gameplay, as in it didnt affect pvp or pve, it was just quality of life.

  4. #64
    The Lightbringer Jazzhands's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imnotadentist View Post
    It doesnt increase the crafting ORDER speed, just the crafting of my toon. How in the heck do you not understand that? It wouldnt buff any npcs crafting speed at all; so my crafting orders would still be the exact same speed as anyone elses.
    What? A crafting order is literally a player completing the craft. You claim the order, craft the item, then turn it in. When you can craft faster, you complete orders faster. NPCs don't complete craft orders, players do.

    Having higher base stats on things like craft speed also allow you to gear more towards things that increase item quality. I don't think you really understand this system.
    Last edited by Jazzhands; 2022-11-12 at 08:49 PM.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Brenz View Post
    But why is it such a bad thing for some races to have benefits over others, so long as each race has a specific benefit.
    Why must they try and make everyone equal.
    That's a bit of a strawman, given nobody is suggesting we make every race the same. Just that racials which are over-performing, or could over-perform in the new expansion, get nerfed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Addiena
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  6. #66
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imnotadentist View Post
    I meant to say that it was inconsequecial to the gameplay, as in it didnt affect pvp or pve, it was just quality of life.
    Fair enough.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Brenz View Post
    But a racial will always out perform other races in that specific area, that's the point of a racial, to give you a strength another race doesn't have. And I'm return, the other race will have a benefit you don't, in their respective area.
    Yes, clearly, but the benefit was obviously too strong, otherwise they wouldn't have nerfed it. They clearly aren't trying to make everyone the same, or they would have removed the racial entirely, they're just bringing down it's power to ensure you don't gain too much of a benefit from being able to gear for other stats because your racial covers all your crafting speed needs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenz View Post
    So no its not a strawman, it's very simple logic
    The strawman was you stating:
    Quote Originally Posted by Brenz View Post
    But why is it such a bad thing for some races to have benefits over others, so long as each race has a specific benefit.
    Why must they try and make everyone equal.
    When nobody argued for the stance of "We should make all races equal"
    Quote Originally Posted by Addiena
    Whats the saying .. You have two brain cells and they are both fighting for third place !

  8. #68
    The Lightbringer Jazzhands's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brenz View Post
    But a racial will always out perform other races in that specific area, that's the point of a racial, to give you a strength another race doesn't have. And I'm return, the other race will have a benefit you don't, in their respective area.

    So no its not a strawman, it's very simple logic
    It's not a matter of out-performing, Racials should give you a benefit, that's the point. But in the scope of the new crafting system, this particular racial would have been incredibly strong. Unless it's changed drastically, in the videos I've watched of Beta people usually have anywhere from 30-50% crafting speed without racials. 25% crafting speed as a racial would be huge, it would allow you to still craft faster than everyone else while also pumping other stats higher. It was simply too strong, and 10% is still really solid for a racial passive.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Imnotadentist View Post
    Mass Production. The Dark Iron Dwarf racial that made them craft Blacksmithing things 25% faster as well as giving a small boost to the Skill level.
    That is until the last patch...
    They nerfed this racial down to 10%, which may not seem like a huge deal to anyone, but it is somewhat to me.
    I usually Craft 10-20k Sharpenening stones to sell on the AH, and a Full inventory of 2940 would take 73.5 minutes. (1.5 s a stone x 2940)/ 60
    Now a full inventory takes 88.2 minutes.
    I dont get why they nerfed this rather inconsequencial racial, much less why they would do it sneaky like, but like what the heck yo.
    So another 15 mins of AFK time.... hmmm
    “Be the change you want to see in the world.” ~ Mahatma Gandhi

  10. #70
    Field Marshal Imnotadentist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mechagnome View Post
    So another 15 mins of AFK time.... hmmm
    Well i typically set my crafting before I start working, and only have to alt tab twice to prevent being logged out for being afk.
    the extra time makes a 3rd alt tab necessary,which isnt a huge deal or anything.
    The point of the post was more to point out the stealth nerf and bring attention to it. Never a good time when Blizzard nerfs anything without telling us that they nerfed it, especially when it is something like a crafting speed buff that most wouldn't notice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stickiler View Post
    Yes, clearly, but the benefit was obviously too strong, otherwise they wouldn't have nerfed it. They clearly aren't trying to make everyone the same, or they would have removed the racial entirely, they're just bringing down it's power to ensure you don't gain too much of a benefit from being able to gear for other stats because your racial covers all your crafting speed needs.


    The strawman was you stating:


    When nobody argued for the stance of "We should make all races equal"
    my dude if you think having faster crafting speed is somehow "too strong" thats kinda weird. I mean again, its not like me crafting that slight bit faster is gamebreaking, nor does it give me some huge advantage, it was purely quality of life.
    The bigger reason I posted about it was that it was done without blizzard telling us it was done, which never makes me happy. Makes me think they were hoping no one would really notice and those who did wouldn't mention it.

  11. #71
    Why are people making fun of this person for not wanting how he plays the game to be stealth nerfed. It 99% has something to do with the profession rework I'm sure, but they should probably explain it at least.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Imnotadentist View Post
    Well i typically set my crafting before I start working, and only have to alt tab twice to prevent being logged out for being afk.
    the extra time makes a 3rd alt tab necessary,which isnt a huge deal or anything.
    The point of the post was more to point out the stealth nerf and bring attention to it. Never a good time when Blizzard nerfs anything without telling us that they nerfed it, especially when it is something like a crafting speed buff that most wouldn't notice.
    I won't insult you with the "you must be new to WoW" comment. Stealth nerfs have existed since 2004. People log in almost daily to find something missing, or nerfed. It's like they want to give it a try, and then when they see how broken or OP it is, they whittle it back down. There was a time when 25 Blood DKs raiding Icecrown as current content and ripped the place apart in 90 minutes. Needless to say, DKs got whacked without warning. Goblin Gliders were once usable in Dungeons and Raids, til people found the exploit, and then it got removed for everyone including those of us who used them as intended. Crafting is no different. Just a part of the Blizzard experience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by planetofjunk View Post
    Why are people making fun of this person for not wanting how he plays the game to be stealth nerfed. It 99% has something to do with the profession rework I'm sure, but they should probably explain it at least.
    Because Internet + Anonymity - Accountability = the behavior you are seeing. Been this way since the days of chatrooms and BBS in 1997.
    “Be the change you want to see in the world.” ~ Mahatma Gandhi

  13. #73
    Titan Al Gorefiend's Avatar
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    Is it even up for debate that Dark Irons and Zandalari have way over the top racials?

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Imnotadentist View Post
    my dude if you think having faster crafting speed is somehow "too strong" thats kinda weird. I mean again, its not like me crafting that slight bit faster is gamebreaking, nor does it give me some huge advantage, it was purely quality of life.
    The bigger reason I posted about it was that it was done without blizzard telling us it was done, which never makes me happy. Makes me think they were hoping no one would really notice and those who did wouldn't mention it.
    It's not giving you an advantage RIGHT NOW, but as a bunch of people have told you, in DF they're changing how professions work, and Crafting Speed is something you'll be able to gear for, and thus giving a large amount of crafting speed as a racial would allow you to gear for increased quality instead, and that gives an out-sized advantage compared to other racials.
    Quote Originally Posted by Addiena
    Whats the saying .. You have two brain cells and they are both fighting for third place !

  15. #75
    The Lightbringer Jazzhands's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imnotadentist View Post
    my dude if you think having faster crafting speed is somehow "too strong" thats kinda weird. I mean again, its not like me crafting that slight bit faster is gamebreaking, nor does it give me some huge advantage, it was purely quality of life.
    The bigger reason I posted about it was that it was done without blizzard telling us it was done, which never makes me happy. Makes me think they were hoping no one would really notice and those who did wouldn't mention it.
    You're once again ignoring Crafting Orders and Crafting gear. 25% Crafting speed from a racial in the new system would be insanely strong.

    As for the "shadow nerf", welcome to WoW. It's been happening since the beginning, and it's always found out. They aren't doing it on purpose because they know how finely the community picks over this game, anything not reported on the patch notes will get found out. Blizzard is a huge company, and when a new expansion is coming and there's a massive list of changes, some things slip through the cracks. If you want to assume it's malicious, then that's on you, but I can pretty much guarantee you it's not.
    Last edited by Jazzhands; 2022-11-13 at 10:15 PM.

  16. #76
    Field Marshal Imnotadentist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzhands View Post
    You're once again ignoring Crafting Orders and Crafting gear. 25% Crafting speed from a racial in the new system would be insanely strong.

    As for the "shadow nerf", welcome to WoW. It's been happening since the beginning, and it's always found out. They aren't doing it on purpose because they know how finely the community picks over this game, anything not reported on the patch notes will get found out. Blizzard is a huge company, and when a new expansion is coming and there's a massive list of changes, some things slip through the cracks. If you want to assume it's malicious, then that's on you, but I can pretty much guarantee you it's not.
    okay ill say it a third time for you. CRAFTING ORDERS ARE DONE BY NPCS, NOT THE CHARACTERS THEMSELVES SO THE RACIAL WOULD NOT EFFECT THE SPEED OF WHICH YOU GET ORDERS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stickiler View Post
    It's not giving you an advantage RIGHT NOW, but as a bunch of people have told you, in DF they're changing how professions work, and Crafting Speed is something you'll be able to gear for, and thus giving a large amount of crafting speed as a racial would allow you to gear for increased quality instead, and that gives an out-sized advantage compared to other racials.
    If that is the case, then cool! but why didn't they announce the nerf? why didnt they come out and say "yeah with the new profession system, we think the 25% is a little too much."
    It wouldn't be an issue I gave a second thought to if they didn't do it sneaky beaky.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mechagnome View Post
    I won't insult you with the "you must be new to WoW" comment. Stealth nerfs have existed since 2004. People log in almost daily to find something missing, or nerfed. It's like they want to give it a try, and then when they see how broken or OP it is, they whittle it back down. There was a time when 25 Blood DKs raiding Icecrown as current content and ripped the place apart in 90 minutes. Needless to say, DKs got whacked without warning. Goblin Gliders were once usable in Dungeons and Raids, til people found the exploit, and then it got removed for everyone including those of us who used them as intended. Crafting is no different. Just a part of the Blizzard experience.

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    Because Internet + Anonymity - Accountability = the behavior you are seeing. Been this way since the days of chatrooms and BBS in 1997.
    Okay firstly ive been playing this game for most of the past 15 years. Secondly, I am well aware they have done nerfs like this in the past and know they have done stealth nerfs all the same. I do not understand why so many keyboard warriors like yourself are up in arms over me posting about an UNANNOUNCED NERF. Its almost like i wanted to... ANNOUNCE IT!
    You compare class stealth nerfs to what boils down to a crafting speed nerf. they are not the same in the slightest bit. Class nerfs affect pvp and pve, crafting speed does not in anyway give you an advantage in pvp or pve.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechagnome View Post
    I won't insult you with the "you must be new to WoW" comment. Stealth nerfs have existed since 2004. People log in almost daily to find something missing, or nerfed. It's like they want to give it a try, and then when they see how broken or OP it is, they whittle it back down. There was a time when 25 Blood DKs raiding Icecrown as current content and ripped the place apart in 90 minutes. Needless to say, DKs got whacked without warning. Goblin Gliders were once usable in Dungeons and Raids, til people found the exploit, and then it got removed for everyone including those of us who used them as intended. Crafting is no different. Just a part of the Blizzard experience.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Because Internet + Anonymity - Accountability = the behavior you are seeing. Been this way since the days of chatrooms and BBS in 1997.
    ^ god you sound like a 4 year old. Accountability for what?? telling people about a stealth nerf? Go shower.

  17. #77
    The Lightbringer Jazzhands's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imnotadentist View Post
    okay ill say it a third time for you. CRAFTING ORDERS ARE DONE BY NPCS, NOT THE CHARACTERS THEMSELVES SO THE RACIAL WOULD NOT EFFECT THE SPEED OF WHICH YOU GET ORDERS.
    Crafting Orders are placed and fulfilled by players. The only time an NPC is involved is when you accept or turn in the order. It would take you less than 60 seconds to verify this.

    Wanting to announce a shadow nerf is fine and all, but you've continuously pushed back against people who have been trying to explain to you why it was nerfed, you literally said in your first post "I dont get why they nerfed this rather inconsequencial racial, much less why they would do it sneaky like, but like what the heck yo." and people have been telling you why, you just refuse to accept it, and it's seemingly because you're very misinformed about how Crafting Orders work. I already made it pretty simple, 25% more crafting speed is 25% more orders. That's not exact, because not all the time you spend doing orders is on the actual crafting, but you can essentially get 15-20% more gold per hour just by having 25% more crafting speed, and that as a racial is incredibly strong, especially when you realize that crafting orders are finite because they're placed by players, so the more orders you accept, the less there are for other players.

    We get it, shadow nerfs suck, Blizzard bad, but you're making a mountain out of not even an ant hill then getting aggressive with people when they try to explain to you why the nerf was justified and that you'll be crafting much, much faster with crafting gear and you'll still have a racial advantage. Shadow nerfs have never been a malicious thing, they weren't trying to sneak something under the radar, that's impossible in a game like this with millions of players. You're only harming yourself by keeping this negative mind set.
    Last edited by Jazzhands; 2022-11-14 at 09:15 PM.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Imnotadentist View Post
    okay ill say it a third time for you. CRAFTING ORDERS ARE DONE BY NPCS, NOT THE CHARACTERS THEMSELVES SO THE RACIAL WOULD NOT EFFECT THE SPEED OF WHICH YOU GET ORDERS.
    Crafting Orders aren't completed by NPCs, you're just wrong on that point. Crafting Orders are completed by other players.


    Quote Originally Posted by Imnotadentist View Post
    If that is the case, then cool! but why didn't they announce the nerf? why didnt they come out and say "yeah with the new profession system, we think the 25% is a little too much."
    It wouldn't be an issue I gave a second thought to if they didn't do it sneaky beaky.
    Probably one of two reasons:
    1. It slipped through the cracks, things happen sometimes, changes get missed.
    2. They didn't consider it significant enough to warrant adding the to patch notes.

    Hanlon's Razor is a pretty decent adage to keep in mind, "never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." Sometimes shit just happens.
    Quote Originally Posted by Addiena
    Whats the saying .. You have two brain cells and they are both fighting for third place !

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Imnotadentist View Post
    I do not understand why so many keyboard warriors like yourself are up in arms over me posting about an UNANNOUNCED NERF. Its almost like i wanted to... ANNOUNCE IT!
    First off, not a keyboard warrior. I just can't stand whining, or posts that resemble it. Second, you and about 12 other blacksmiths in the game are actually upset enough to run to a forum to bitch about it. Third, if you have the right to bitch about nerfs, and exercise that right, prepare for people to "respond" to you the way people tend to do. Ultimately, this is a first world problem that did not require you to play the part of the Blue Tracker and come out shouting about it to "Announce" jack shit. Pretty sure the adjustment was announced and buried in some patch notes from a hot fix, or another upload, and no one bothered to read it then either. But, if you really feel like this is a heated subject, and you want to announce it and warn folks about it, the most helpful spot would be here: https://www.mmo-champion.com/forums/279-Professions

    But don't be shocked that you made a thread here and people expressed their own view on the matter. We all knew it was coming since crafting is finally being made useful again in DragonFlight. Racials were bound to play a part in it. If you're right, there will be more threads like this one in the coming weeks complaining about that extra 13 minutes of crafting.
    “Be the change you want to see in the world.” ~ Mahatma Gandhi

  20. #80
    The Lightbringer Jazzhands's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mechagnome View Post
    First off, not a keyboard warrior. I just can't stand whining, or posts that resemble it. Second, you and about 12 other blacksmiths in the game are actually upset enough to run to a forum to bitch about it. Third, if you have the right to bitch about nerfs, and exercise that right, prepare for people to "respond" to you the way people tend to do. Ultimately, this is a first world problem that did not require you to play the part of the Blue Tracker and come out shouting about it to "Announce" jack shit. Pretty sure the adjustment was announced and buried in some patch notes from a hot fix, or another upload, and no one bothered to read it then either. But, if you really feel like this is a heated subject, and you want to announce it and warn folks about it, the most helpful spot would be here: https://www.mmo-champion.com/forums/279-Professions

    But don't be shocked that you made a thread here and people expressed their own view on the matter. We all knew it was coming since crafting is finally being made useful again in DragonFlight. Racials were bound to play a part in it. If you're right, there will be more threads like this one in the coming weeks complaining about that extra 13 minutes of crafting.
    The funny part about this is that when DF drops he'll be able to get significantly more crafting speed then ever before, which will drastically cut down his crafting time for bulk crafts, on top of multicrafting and saving mats. Crafting is insane now, but nah sky is falling because of a small nerf that wasn't announced out of the hundreds of changes.

    They only recently did testing for Crafting Orders, I don't think they've even put out a comprehensive change list for crafting yet, all the notes I've seen don't mention crafting at all. Wouldn't surprise me if they drop a post about it soon that'll likely mention racial being shifted a bit.

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