Rotation bots have killed off the end game in FF

[Osmeric]

Thankfully, Ashes of Creation doesn't seem to have too many buttons.

Interesting. Thanks for the heads up.

[Grinning Serpent]

Assize, Aquaveil, Divine Bension, Lucid Dream, Swiftcast, Temperance, Liturgy, POM Thin Air, Benediction, Tetra, Asylum, Plenary Indulgence, Surecast can all be woven between gcds, and shouldn't be used instead of a gcd. I'd try weaving on a target dummy. You can get a feeling for it, for both windows - which sometimes is important (e.g.: one of the monk buffs is only used in the second ogcd windows, otherwise you get only 10 instead of 11 gcds into the buff).

When playing healer i always prefer using healing ogcds before using healing gcds (unless i want to save them for specific occasion) and use gcds for damage as long as possible. Though to be honest, double weaving happens seldom (apart from opener and if i fuck up).

Oh and don't try to triple weave, it is not worth it - even for drk - just a theoretical discussion.

For WHM specifically you will typically use Regen if a lily is not available and you want a weave slot. Or just tack it onto the end of a Glare cast, since with 1.5s DPS casts, every healer has infinite weave slots now.

[Pannonian]

For WHM specifically you will typically use Regen if a lily is not available and you want a weave slot. Or just tack it onto the end of a Glare cast, since with 1.5s DPS casts, every healer has infinite weave slots now.

yeah, still too much in the old playstyle where glare had longer cd so you had to wait for an instant for ogcd ...

[Echo of Soul]

that is the main problem with FFXIV. That it actively encourages toxic entitlement.

I'm curious, why do you play it if it's so horrible? You'd have a lot more fun where the toxicity is elitist instead.

[Yarathir]

You should rather seek people who share your value of fun, whether that is based on your values or your abilities (handicaps).
Expecting that people that are higher skilled than you should carry you is the definition of toxic entitlement.

that is the main problem with FFXIV. That it actively encourages toxic entitlement.

No it isn't, lmao. You're literally free to structure your Extreme, Savage and Ultimate statics or pugs around any factor you wish without repercussion. If you don't like a character's socks? You're free to kick the player. Those groups are completely free to regulate themselves.

What you can't do, however, is enter easy content like a Heavensward story dungeon or a Stormblood trial via the Duty Finder and harass a guy for not doing enough damage for your liking. Which makes sense because that's content for everyone; hell, it's mandatory content to progress and doesn't present any real hurdles to remotely warrant any tryhardiness.

[Cthulhu 2020]

As people began to optimize the 60/90/120 second rotations together, the divide between sweaty parsers and casual raiders started to widen. They began to design fights more around optimization of damage than mechanic optimization. The entire fact that P8S was nigh unkillable by most groups until it was nerfed is evidence enough of how much fights are being designed around optimization. But as of Endwalker, they've standardized pretty much every class to align with this new 2 minute meta, making it easier for people who wouldn't normally align buff windows with their party to just hit a button every 2 minutes and align with everyone.

It's honestly displeasing to watch happen, and word is that rather than moving away from this 2 minute meta so that "sustained" DPS classes like paladins can retain that class identity, they're just changing the paladin rotation to have higher burst during that 2 minute window, giving more hills and valleys to their rotation and completely getting rid of sustained classes.


The more you standardize job rotations, the easier it is for bots to line up their rotations perfectly, giving people inventive to use said bots.

Also, I LOL at the statements that the parsing community isn't bad at all or responsible for any of this. The communities have HEAVY gatekeeping and parsing has become the focus for even normal party finders, and people will often run into the wall if they get a damage down because they don't want to ruin their parse average. In simple reclear parties.

[Grinning Serpent]

I don't understand why people get so angry about content that isn't current savage/ultimates having people being a bit behind? Even now Abyssos is pretty cruisy, we took a bard that was p7 fresh to p8 p1 enrage in 2 hours. They were a competent player and their damage wasn't awful, so it wasn't the worst experience, but they had fun, we did too and we lost nothing out of it.

What's clearing sohm al 2 minutes slower? Why is that a problem to some of these lug nuts?

It has nothing to do with the actual speed, it has everything to do with people not putting in equal effort. Just circle back to the numerous examples given some pages ago, of analogues in real life where this kind of "I'm going to do minimal effort and get the same rewards" mentality is vilified and despised.

[T-34]

I'm curious, why do you play it if it's so horrible? You'd have a lot more fun where the toxicity is elitist instead.

I don't. I tried it out.

[Ghost of Cow]

It has nothing to do with the actual speed, it has everything to do with people not putting in equal effort. Just circle back to the numerous examples given some pages ago, of analogues in real life where this kind of "I'm going to do minimal effort and get the same rewards" mentality is vilified and despised.

Sure, but people are often simply too dramatic about it.

The BLM having a bad day in your Smileton run isn't a bad human being or something. You don't need to call their boss up and try to get it put on their annual review.

[Pannonian]

You don't know that person is doing the bare minimum due to laziness, they could be just learning that job, only just dinged, leveling, doing the story, a 12 year old who is still struggling to learn to use keyboard and mouse. I have played with some wonderful people who could barely manage to clear the first or second floor of savage, but they are playing the best they can, they just aren't that good, getting upset over that is more upon the person upset than those perceived as burdens.

Just yesterday i took my time to explain a new whitemage (first job at lvl 65ish) each boss in one instance (forgot the name, second boss has 3 element towers, and if you dont know getting pushed back all the time can be super annoying), and spent some time after the last boss explaining some things he might want to know - e.g.: how towers work (both he and his friend went onto me, leaving one tower empty), why freecure is a trap, not to panic if a tank drops below 50%, and not start panic-bene, you know - basic stuff i was very glad someone explained to me. Of course i asked beforehand if he wanted to have a knowledgedump, because i would never tell people how to play in leveling dungeon if they dont want to.

But i despise entitlement - Tanks with mentor crown pulling a YPYT? - I will get very bitchy. If i run SGe, yeah, in an expert dungeon i pull first group if the tank sports his mentor crown to get that sweet sweet shield pop - if its annoying tell me to stop, i will - but turning off tank stance, letting dps tank and explaining in chat that if i want to pull i should queue as tank? Yeah fuck that - random dps gets kardia and the tank gets shown how necessary they are.

[Ghost of Cow]

There are definitely a few times that I'll do a "You pulled it, you tank it", mostly when part of the group is watching cutscenes. (Especially if it's the healer!)

We wait for cutscene watchers in my groups, dammit. >

[Pannonian]

There are definitely a few times that I'll do a "You pulled it, you tank it", mostly when part of the group is watching cutscenes. (Especially if it's the healer!)

We wait for cutscene watchers in my groups, dammit. >

Well, that's a bit different i'd argue. Talking about everyone is running and one person is jumping ahead - and sadly this happens.

Just to be clear: i always wait for cutscenes.

[Grinning Serpent]

You don't know that person is doing the bare minimum due to laziness, they could be just learning that job, only just dinged, leveling, doing the story, a 12 year old who is still struggling to learn to use keyboard and mouse. I have played with some wonderful people who could barely manage to clear the first or second floor of savage, but they are playing the best they can, they just aren't that good, getting upset over that is more upon the person upset than those perceived as burdens.

The key word here is *EFFORT.* If someone is doing the best they can and they still suck, that's fine - they're putting in equal effort to everyone else. Equal effort is not the same as equal results.

But someone that's lazily two-buttoning it while watching TV or something? They can get bent. That's demanding that other players put in more effort than you're willing to put forth, because if everyone was that lazy, it would likely take literally twice as long than it normally would. Or might even be unclearable, if it's one of those very rare normals that actually has an enrage timer.

If someone asks, hey can I chill and watch TV while I do this dungeon? I don't have a problem with it - because they *asked.* Assuming the rest of the group goes along with it (and they probably will, XIV is chill and people are usually friendly), I don't have any issue with it. It's when you effectively *demand* that others compensate for your laziness is when there's a problem.

[Granyala]

But i despise entitlement - Tanks with mentor crown pulling a YPYT? - I will get very bitchy. If i run SGe, yeah, in an expert dungeon i pull first group if the tank sports his mentor crown to get that sweet sweet shield pop - if its annoying tell me to stop, i will - but turning off tank stance, letting dps tank and explaining in chat that if i want to pull i should queue as tank? Yeah fuck that - random dps gets kardia and the tank gets shown how necessary they are.

Depends on my mood.
I too find it annoying if some derpy DPS thinks hat he gets to dictate when to pull what.
If I do not pull a certain group/mob (which is rare but it does happen), I have my reasons not do to so and it's not your place to go against that.
If you want to pull freely, go queue as a tank.

[Jinpachi]

No, people aren't leaving in large numbers. It's the exact opposite. And why do YOU care what a guild does in their own instanced raid/trial/whatever? Unless it's used in pvp to give an unfair advantage, then find something else to criticize. Seriously, if no money is involved, no esports bullshit or people going for world firsts, there's no reason to complain.

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There are definitely a few times that I'll do a "You pulled it, you tank it", mostly when part of the group is watching cutscenes. (Especially if it's the healer!)

We wait for cutscene watchers in my groups, dammit. >

You pull it you tank it is the gold standard. That's group combat 101, day 1.

[Doodledabble]

Depends on my mood.
I too find it annoying if some derpy DPS thinks hat he gets to dictate when to pull what.
If I do not pull a certain group/mob (which is rare but it does happen), I have my reasons not do to so and it's not your place to go against that.
If you want to pull freely, go queue as a tank.

I can agree with this. During my good moods I couldn't care, but sometimes I don't pull something for a reason. Maybe I realized the healer is undergeared and healing like a wet noodle, or the dps is so low that I'm cycling through all my cds in a single double pull. If a dps pulls more after I stop and I die due to that, my reply will always be "There is a reason I stopped, don't assume you know my situation and my cds"

[Grinning Serpent]

Depends on my mood.
I too find it annoying if some derpy DPS thinks hat he gets to dictate when to pull what.
If I do not pull a certain group/mob (which is rare but it does happen), I have my reasons not do to so and it's not your place to go against that.
If you want to pull freely, go queue as a tank.

Pointless. Dungeons are a joke and, especially at level cap, tanks can very easily solo entire dungeons. Healers are *entirely* unnecessary. At lower levels, you may want to pull extra depending on your group composition, some groups have massively overpowered AOE for the level sync they're at and it makes sense to pull a lot even if you normally wouldn't.

Pulling is not specific to any one person or role. Anyone can pull. The tank's job is to hold aggro. The DPS's job is to kill what the tank is holding. The healer's job is to keep everyone alive. There is no "puller," no one dedicated or specialized into that role. It does not exist. The person that pulls is whoever pulls.

Similarly, the tank is not automatically the leader. The most experienced player is the leader, regardless of their role. A huge part of "tanxiety" is the perception that the tank is always the leader - that by clicking the blue button, you're going to be expected to put on a performance. When in reality, tanking is a joke and is far and away the most brainless and easiest role in casual content (also hard content, but to an even greater extent.)

I mean, it doesn't matter for casual content. Anything goes, there. But that's why getting upset about people doing "your" job seems so silly. Maybe if you were doing criterion and a bad pull *will* kill everyone. But when you're talking about content so easy that you don't even need a full group to easily clear it, it seems pointless.

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No, people aren't leaving in large numbers. It's the exact opposite. And why do YOU care what a guild does in their own instanced raid/trial/whatever? Unless it's used in pvp to give an unfair advantage, then find something else to criticize. Seriously, if no money is involved, no esports bullshit or people going for world firsts, there's no reason to complain.

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You pull it you tank it is the gold standard. That's group combat 101, day 1.

That's just making the healer have to do extra work because you're getting your knickers in a twist. Grow up.

This ain't Everquest or FF11 or other games where there's actual thought and skill involved in aggro management. Aggro is more free in XIV than in any MMO I've ever played before, it's quite literally just pushing one button, and I ain't talking about your taunt button. If someone pulls extra mobs just adjust your position so that your AOE spam will catch the mobs as they chase the guy that pulled them, or just tab and tap your taunt button at them or something.

No reason to make your healer's day worse because you're upset that someone did "your" job for you.

[Narzok]

not sure it the current discussion is still only about expert dungeons, but in levelling i have gotten so many people who pull extra and almost wiped us that i made a macro reminding people that i don't have all my CDs and that some dps don't have much/any meaningful AoE skills.

"yeah, let's wall-to-wall pull Haukke Manor with a DRG and a MCH, what could go wrong?"

[Pannonian]

not sure it the current discussion is still only about expert dungeons, but in levelling i have gotten so many people who pull extra and almost wiped us that i made a macro reminding people that i don't have all my CDs and that some dps don't have much/any meaningful AoE skills.

"yeah, let's wall-to-wall pull Haukke Manor with a DRG and a MCH, what could go wrong?"

I always pull Haukke wall to wall, as i'm confident enough in my own playstyle. Would i force that on anyone? No, because its a leveling dungeon, and people are often still learning the game

I'm taking about maxlelvel/endgame dungeons. Especially given how newer dungeons are designed, there is NEVER a reason to not pull 2 groups. And yeah, if you let people die because of YPYT and also type that in chat: enjoy your timeout.

[Yarathir]

not sure it the current discussion is still only about expert dungeons, but in levelling i have gotten so many people who pull extra and almost wiped us that i made a macro reminding people that i don't have all my CDs and that some dps don't have much/any meaningful AoE skills.

"yeah, let's wall-to-wall pull Haukke Manor with a DRG and a MCH, what could go wrong?"

Had this in Toto-Rak when I was healing on my Sage.

Like, okay dude.. most of you don't have AoE and I am at a level where I need to hardcast my heals. Don't be mad when you sprint ahead of me, pull several packs and bite it because of that.