Nathanos is proof players only want to be idolized in the story

[Soon-TM]

I think Nathanos was a great character.

People always say "In WoW we used to be adventurers not these main characters that saved the world multiple times. It felt more realistic.".

However, in BfA we had Nathanos treating us like nobodies. He constantly treated us as common soilders. Not some world saving heroes. But people hated him.

Then they (blizz devs) just killed him without any lore thought at all as a pre-expansion event to Shadowlands. Vanished like he never existed.

Now we get these "Dragonflight Legacies" videos where yet again, this Drakthyr that is YOU, THE GREAT HERO AND SAVIOR OF AZEROTH, again being the main focus of all the 3 videos so far.

Enjoy being called a god amongst men for the entire expansion. Fun story telling. Hero of Azeroth. Planeswalker. What else can we call you? "Savior of the Dragon Isles"?

Personally I don't like this kind of storytelling, but please don't be surprised that this is the way the game will keep pushing for the forseeable future, Planeswalker.

Not sucking on the player's genitalia for collecting your daily ration of bear asses is OK, even great. Being a twat for literally no reason at all (hey, we have saved the world several times by now, aside from the fact that we are elite soldiers of your beloved banshee, you idiot)... Not so much.

Taran Zhu in MoP was pretty similar, but at least 1) he acted on his own, not as Sylvanas' #1 bootlicker and 2) he had no reason to know who we were, all he saw were invaders whom he probably didn't like (which made sense), but had to be dealt with anyway.

[VladlTutushkin]

I think Nathanos was a great character.

People always say "In WoW we used to be adventurers not these main characters that saved the world multiple times. It felt more realistic.".

However, in BfA we had Nathanos treating us like nobodies. He constantly treated us as common soilders. Not some world saving heroes. But people hated him.

Then they (blizz devs) just killed him without any lore thought at all as a pre-expansion event to Shadowlands. Vanished like he never existed.

Now we get these "Dragonflight Legacies" videos where yet again, this Drakthyr that is YOU, THE GREAT HERO AND SAVIOR OF AZEROTH, again being the main focus of all the 3 videos so far.

Enjoy being called a god amongst men for the entire expansion. Fun story telling. Hero of Azeroth. Planeswalker. What else can we call you? "Savior of the Dragon Isles"?

Personally I don't like this kind of storytelling, but please don't be surprised that this is the way the game will keep pushing for the forseeable future, Planeswalker.

And in theoretical scenario that people WANT to be idolized, whats then?

What if people enjoy being that Big Bad Hero who smacks gods and monsters around?

Then what?

[chrisisvacant]

And in theoretical scenario that people WANT to be idolized, whats then?

What if people enjoy being that Big Bad Hero who smacks gods and monsters around?

Then what?

Well if they aren't psychologically unwell, they'll be able to suffer through half an expansion where they aren't fellated

[mickybrighteyes]

Never mind the fact that that guy tried to blame the Alliance Humans for the internment camps, when the actual human kingdom that created said camps was Lordaeron... you know, the kingdom that is mostly Horde-affiliated nowadays via the Forsaken.

It's quite hilarious how some of these Horde players keep blaming the Alliance for the internment camps... how do they not understand that Lordaeron, the kingdom that actually built those camps, is currently in the Horde?

This is a simple fact that should be easily understood via basic reading comprehension of the story. Blaming the Alliance for the internment camps is quite hypocritical, given how it was Lordaeron's, and thus the Forsaken's, idea.

You'd think you'd remember how lordaeron's people also came to reside within the current human nations and nevermind the plot points I know you've brought up about the forsaken and some of their more recent "expansions" that included decided not "lordaeron" living (as they had vacated the territories)...

This post comes across more hypocritical given how you like to trash talk orcs.


edit:
As for Nathanos. At one point I thought people liked him BECAUSE he wasn't fawning over the main crew and was a sour undead figure and badass of some sort.... but after he became the voice of the warchief and the face of the faction for an expansion everyone was over that trash.

I don't think he's ever had a positive interaction with a player and despite how some old classic interactions might be a bit similar to old hermit master and 'dumb trainee' out of a bad action movie... we weren't ever meant to 'like' him post legion.

[Kehego]

Yeah.. absolutely not.

People didn't hate him because he treated us like common soldiers. People hated him because he was a horrible, unlikeable git with no redeeming qualities.

so a mmo-c poster?

I can see that

[VladlTutushkin]

You'd think you'd remember how lordaeron's people also came to reside within the current human nations and nevermind the plot points I know you've brought up about the forsaken and some of their more recent "expansions" that included decided not "lordaeron" living (as they had vacated the territories)...

This post comes across more hypocritical given how you like to trash talk orcs.


edit:
As for Nathanos. At one point I thought people liked him BECAUSE he wasn't fawning over the main crew and was a sour undead figure and badass of some sort.... but after he became the voice of the warchief and the face of the faction for an expansion everyone was over that trash.

I don't think he's ever had a positive interaction with a player and despite how some old classic interactions might be a bit similar to old hermit master and 'dumb trainee' out of a bad action movie... we weren't ever meant to 'like' him post legion.

Forsaken whole point is that THEY are "true lordaernians" and those who fled during the plague basically self-exiled themselves and no longer have a right to history, legacy or land of Lordaeron. Basically an extreme case of "no true Scotsman" clause.

And based on that Alliance players often say that if Forsaken want Lordaeron and its legacy they also shall take on all the bullshit Lordaeron committed and not cherry pick or deflect.

[mickybrighteyes]

Forsaken whole point is that THEY are "true lordaernians" and those who fled during the plague basically self-exiled themselves and no longer have a right to history, legacy or land of Lordaeron. Basically an extreme case of "no true Scotsman" clause.

And based on that Alliance players often say that if Forsaken want Lordaeron and its legacy they also shall take on all the bullshit Lordaeron committed and not cherry pick or deflect.

At the same time.... this logic shouldn't be sued to try and absolve one group that was still party to such activities because they see another group as also part of it... Lordaeron didn't entirely turn forsaken... and it's living survivors aren't limited to a unique regent lord of Stormwind going forward into DF.

[Aresk]

Forsaken whole point is that THEY are "true lordaernians" and those who fled during the plague basically self-exiled themselves and no longer have a right to history, legacy or land of Lordaeron. Basically an extreme case of "no true Scotsman" clause.

And based on that Alliance players often say that if Forsaken want Lordaeron and its legacy they also shall take on all the bullshit Lordaeron committed and not cherry pick or deflect.

I think it's fair to say that Forsaken should acknowledge the part that they played in imprisoning the orcs, though how much say they had in those decisions is likely very little (while they still have connection to the monarch who made those decisions through Calia, she had very little political influence at the time as well). It's not unreasonable to expect an apology from them, though it's similarly not surprising if the common person feels no guilt over it (particularly given some Forsakens' diminished capacity for compassion).

Regardless, it wasn't a decision that was Lordaeron's alone. While I wouldn't blame Gilneas for the camps, for instance (given their strict opposition and eventual abandonment of the Alliance over the issue), their solution of genocide was ethically far worse. Both Stormwind and Dalaran, to some extent, supported the imprisonment of the camps, so to shuck blame solely on Lordaeron seems to be ignoring the impact that a lot of other nations had, particularly since life imprisonment was a compromise made by the Alliance over Terenas' shorter imprisonment proposal. With the man responsible for rounding up the orcs now sitting as regent of Stormwind, it definitely is still a very Alliance-oriented historical event.

[Varodoc]

You'd think you'd remember how lordaeron's people also came to reside within the current human nations and nevermind the plot points I know you've brought up about the forsaken and some of their more recent "expansions" that included decided not "lordaeron" living (as they had vacated the territories)...

As a side note for anyone else reading: "Expansions" is an euphemism, what this poster is referring to is the senseless slaughter of innocent civilians and farmers and their resurrections into monstrosities against their own will, all crimes committed by the Forsaken since Cataclysm.

With the euphemism out of the way, if your argument is that the Alliance has more surviving Lordaeronian than the Horde, then you concede that the Alliance has more rights to Lordaeron than the Forsaken.

This post comes across more hypocritical given how you like to trash talk orcs.

Orcs are trash though? They are an indefensible race, especially after WoD, where the "omgg they were corrupted by fel!!!" excuse is thrown out the window. I am one of the most impartial players you will ever find, I only care about the facts of the story, I observe the story from a higher perspective without getting particularly attached to anything in particular. And the story (especially since WoD) has unambiguously portrayed the orcs as trash.

[Triceron]

I'm going to humor the absurdity and say yes, OP, you are right that players only want to be idolized.

And since you are also a WoW player you are suggesting you only want to be idolized.

[Exeris]

You would think after D3 they would of learned people get irritated with dialogue spam.

They learned with Lich king in Wrath and even stated so, but then kinda forgot again I guess.

[Myradin]

No he really didn't. I remember many people talking about how he was right and praising him for being above the faction conflict and seeing the faction war for what it was regarding Pandaria.

He became even more and more popular as the expansion went along.

I don't think he was as hated as Nathanos, but I definitely recall there being people who strongly didn't like him for judging the horde and alliance.

I do think he worked this way out of it as the expansion went along though.

[mickybrighteyes]

Orcs are trash though? They are a pretty indefensible race, especially after WoD, where the "omgg they were corrupted by fel!!!" excuse is thrown out the window. I am one of the most impartial players you will ever find, I only care about the facts of the story, and the story (especially since WoD) has unambiguously portrayed the orcs as trash.

lmao the bold is hilarious.

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I don't think he was as hated as Nathanos, but I definitely recall there being people who strongly didn't like him for judging the horde and alliance.

I do think he worked this way out of it as the expansion went along though.

Zhu was disliked for standing against the players' actions but really wasn't hated or despised anymore than a lot of other characters. I don't recall him getting much hate personally but he was a far less intrusive character in the story told during MoP

[Aucald]

Orcs are trash though? They are an indefensible race, especially after WoD, where the "omgg they were corrupted by fel!!!" excuse is thrown out the window. I am one of the most impartial players you will ever find, I only care about the facts of the story, and the story (especially since WoD) has unambiguously portrayed the orcs as trash.

It's difficult to reconcile someone saying "I am one of the most impartial players you will ever find" following up the statement "orcs are trash." Also questionable is justifying that take using an example of orcs from an alternate universe/timeline that is essentially a fractured fairytale version of the main timeline. One where so many variances to overall history occurred that the characters in question diverge entirely from their primary universe counterparts even *before* someone from said primary universe arrives to throw further spanners into that timeline's intended progression.

To paint an inverse of the situation, it'd be like plucking a serial killer's alternate self out of another universe, seeing that the alternate person didn't turn out to be a serial killer, then saying "hey, this guy turned out alright in this other timeline, so that must mean the serial killer is actually okay." Essentially, you're comparing apples to lampshades.

[Rexosaurus]

I think Nathanos was a great character.

However, in BfA we had Nathanos treating us like nobodies. He constantly treated us as common soilders. Not some world saving heroes. But people hated him.

That's not how you treat "common soldiers" unless you're a total cunt that wants to paint a target on your own back. Which is one of the actual major reasons that a lot of people didn't like Nathanos.

Then they (blizz devs) just killed him without any lore thought at all as a pre-expansion event to Shadowlands. Vanished like he never existed.

Well that's fitting since he was introduced basically with same level of forethought. Which was one of the other big issues that people seemed to train on. He was just a random Vanilla NPC that became a meme until he suddenly popped into the game during Legion.

[VladlTutushkin]

I think it's fair to say that Forsaken should acknowledge the part that they played in imprisoning the orcs, though how much say they had in those decisions is likely very little (while they still have connection to the monarch who made those decisions through Calia, she had very little political influence at the time as well). It's not unreasonable to expect an apology from them, though it's similarly not surprising if the common person feels no guilt over it (particularly given some Forsakens' diminished capacity for compassion).

Regardless, it wasn't a decision that was Lordaeron's alone. While I wouldn't blame Gilneas for the camps, for instance (given their strict opposition and eventual abandonment of the Alliance over the issue), their solution of genocide was ethically far worse. Both Stormwind and Dalaran, to some extent, supported the imprisonment of the camps, so to shuck blame solely on Lordaeron seems to be ignoring the impact that a lot of other nations had, particularly since life imprisonment was a compromise made by the Alliance over Terenas' shorter imprisonment proposal. With the man responsible for rounding up the orcs now sitting as regent of Stormwind, it definitely is still a very Alliance-oriented historical event.

Stomrwind was a smoking ruin back then , with its population more then 50% dead and we do not know if they did anything other then handwaved the decision to Lordaeron. Gilneas fucked off from the whole deal due to being broke and Dalaran was basically neutral and didnt cared. No, dance around it all you want but it was ultimately Lordaeron who taken the big decision. Same as with US and NATO really, but even more pronounced.

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At the same time.... this logic shouldn't be sued to try and absolve one group that was still party to such activities because they see another group as also part of it... Lordaeron didn't entirely turn forsaken... and it's living survivors aren't limited to a unique regent lord of Stormwind going forward into DF.

Well and even according to recent WoW lore Forsaken would rather eat their own legs than let him call himself Lordaeronian. So, by their own rampant prejudice and exclusion they squarely point on themselves as SOLE AND ONLY inheritors of Lordaeron.

Basically, THIS would be a good story about racism or whatever, if Blizz cared to notice that glaring plot gold mine.

[AcidicSyn]

Oh look the thread turned into another HvA circle jerk.


OT: I thought Nathanos was funny.

[Varodoc]

It's difficult to reconcile someone saying "I am one of the most impartial players you will ever find" following up the statement "orcs are trash." Also questionable is justifying that take using an example of orcs from an alternate universe/timeline that is essentially a fractured fairytale version of the main timeline. One where so many variances to overall history occurred that the characters in question diverge entirely from their primary universe counterparts even *before* someone from said primary universe arrives to throw further spanners into that timeline's intended progression.

I don't know why some nowadays always feel the need to defend and justify the supposed downtrodden.

Me saying that the orcs are trash is not me being biased. It's just me reporting you what the story said and showed. Is it not a fact that Thrall felt the need to settle in a desolate wasteland as atonement for his people's sins? Is it not a fact that only a trash person (or a trash race, in this case) would feel the need to atone to such an extent (literally dooming themselves to live in an ugly wasteland)? Is it not a fact that the orcs of the MU followed two genocidal warmongers willingly?

The entire race felt like they needed to "atone" and you still want to defend them and act like they were just poor and oppressed, but this is not what the story shows at all. The story is clear. The orcs committed unambiguously evil crimes and were a terrible people, and as atonement they would be doomed to build their civilization in a desolate wasteland, with all the risks and difficulties of doing this.

Like, I don't know what more evidence you require to understand that the orcs are a trash race. Their young leader literally looked at his race's past, was appalled, and decreed that the current and all future generations should have to live in a wretched wasteland as atonement. He literally decreed that their crimes were so severe, that even their newborn would have to pay for the sins of their fathers, by living in a wasteland. It really doesn't get any clearer than that.

[mickybrighteyes]

Well and even according to recent WoW lore Forsaken would rather eat their own legs than let him call himself Lordaeronian. So, by their own rampant prejudice and exclusion they squarely point on themselves as SOLE AND ONLY inheritors of Lordaeron.

Basically, THIS would be a good story about racism or whatever, if Blizz cared to notice that glaring plot gold mine.

According to recent wow lore.... Cartel distinction doesn't really matter. being brought back from the dead is teh only standard to discuss undeath. total random third party people have more say in certain political groups than people who have been running them for years and certain people seem to want to jump on bandwagons to try and crucify groups for past deeds while carrying on because they have a certain bias to tally attrocities and blame everyone except their favorite groups for what is morally wrong in the lore (and hilariously call themselves impartial )

Now while you might want to act like the forsaken are calling themselves the "sole and only inheritors" of lordaeron... you kind of gloss over the fact that... well they still held the land and actually existed in a city on it they used as a capitol. You might want to also link that to the baggage and history of what the living people of the "Alliance of Lordaeron" may or amy not have been party to when they were the mortal and living residents of the area as well but that's an entirely different discussion than the BS that is trying to link one party or group to the sole moral baggage of the wrong side of history lesson.

[Aucald]

I don't know why some nowadays always feel the need to defend and justify the supposed downtrodden.

I'm not calling out the "supposed downtrodden," I'm demonstrating why your analogy is fundamentally flawed.

Me saying that the orcs are trash is not me being biased. It's just me reporting you what the story said and showed. Is it not a fact that Thrall felt the need to settle in a desolate wasteland as atonement for his people's sins? Is it not a fact that only a trash person (or a trash race, in this case) would feel the need to atone to such an extent (literally dooming themselves to live in an ugly wasteland)? Is it not a fact that the orcs of the MU followed two genocidal warmongers willingly?

That's your subjective takeaway from the story, sure; and that's pretty much yours to have. And if you said "I think the orcs are trash" without a justification I wouldn't have responded, since that's just an opinion. It's only when you attempted to prop up said opinion as objective and based on a flawed premise that I felt the desire to point out both the inconsistency of the logic and the lack of objectivity.

The entire race felt like they needed to "atone" and you still want to defend them and act like they were just poor and oppressed, but this is not what the story shows at all. The story is clear. The orcs committed unambiguously evil crimes and were a terrible people, and as atonement they would be doomed to build their civilization in a desolate wasteland, with all the risks and difficulties of doing this.

My feelings are irrelevant in terms of the narrative, as are yours. Again, this isn't a defense of the orcs or their history, as it doesn't require one. It's casting a spotlight on fallacious argumentation.

Like, I don't know what more evidence you require to understand that the orcs are a trash race. Their young leader literally looked at his race's past, was appalled, and decreed that the current and all future generations should have to live in a wretched wasteland as atonement. He literally decreed that their crimes were so severe, that even their newborn would have to pay for the sins of their fathers, by living in a wasteland. It really doesn't get any clearer than that.

To that I'd say that the desire to atone, even trying and failing to do so multiple times, is still better than failing to recognize it at all and proceeding to do terrible things out of entirely externalized malice. Whether or not that makes a people "a trash race" is an individual judgment - but that's all it is, at the end of the day. You have an opinion, one you've made based entirely on your emotions, and others may well have differing opinions. That's a lot less objective, and much less defined by the narrative, than your attempt to relate here.