Looking to the Future: FFXIV v7.x and Beyond

[Wrecktangle]

The Extreme won't be finished in a day.

If you don't like it? Then by all means, Shoo. Go away. We don't care to hear your complaining.

Setting your toxic behavior aside, extremes are usually finished in a day. Sure you can farm them over multiple days, but I usually pug them day 1, clear and get whatever item I need out of it. Not a complaint from me as I actually consider day 1 extremes to be some of the most fun content the game has ever produced, but they're not durable content by ANY measure.

Given i know 2 people that are really looking forward to the deep dungeon and will probably get lost there for a few weeks, i'm glad for them they don't have to try to get their favourite new glam form the alliance raid (which again, is YOUR preception that it'll be done in one day - on the other hand the smn of my static went 27 time aglaia in the first week until he got the chest piece) at the same time.

I don't know what sounds worse lol. Claiming that someone ran the alliance raid 27 times in one week for a piece of glamour as some kind of evidence that it's durable content or actually running the alliance raid 27 times.

Some of you recurring posters: do you even like the game? Looks like you trot out literally every excuse to shit on it. "Only ONE dungeon per patch! I'M OUTRAGED! I'll go to one of those other MMOs that don't introduce any new dungeons in patches at all!"

Most people who complain or offer criticism (no matter how short sighted or even questionable) don't do it because they hate the game, they do it because they actually like it, but can't stand certain things about it. With that said the quality at which some of these people can actually discuss their POVs varies wildly and can create a lot of friction.

I frequently criticize the game and i've been accused countless times of "why do you even play, you hate the game, etc., but it's because I actually like the game I just strongly dislike some of their design decisions.

"If it doesn't personally appeal to me, it's not actual content."

Great mindset. Now what if I were to tell you that.... for a grand majority of the player population,Ultimates aren't real content? Because they're unlikely to ever set a foot in it or care about it?

To be fair though, when Ultimates are released FF14 frequently goes near the top viewership on Twitch so clearly players do care. Just because they can't do it doesn't mean they don't like watching others attempt it. The same is rarely true when other content pieces are added.

[Osmeric]

Some of you recurring posters: do you even like the game?

Not enough to keep playing it, no. It was ok while I did.

[Yarathir]

Most people who complain or offer criticism (no matter how short sighted or even questionable) don't do it because they hate the game, they do it because they actually like it, but can't stand certain things about it. With that said the quality at which some of these people can actually discuss their POVs varies wildly and can create a lot of friction.

I frequently criticize the game and i've been accused countless times of "why do you even play, you hate the game, etc., but it's because I actually like the game I just strongly dislike some of their design decisions.

There is such a thing as invalid criticism and bad faith actors, though. I've no idea how anyone is even remotely supposed to take someone who goes "all of this? This is non-content. Because I say so! Therefore XIV bad" seriously and humor it as if it's actual critique made by someone in earnest.

Additionally, if your viewpoint is "it should cater more to raiders and treadmill enthusiasts," that is fine to have, but it's not out of a lack of ability that CBUIII doesn't embrace that; they simply don't want to. So when you keep flecking the same "why don't we have a gear treadmill! Why don't we get more raids and more ultimates!" complaint at them, you're really not saying something they haven't heard.

It's not that they don't know (especially after people like Xenos and Arthars bellyaching about it for the zillionth time this patch)-- it's that they deliberately choose to abstain from that kind of development path where raiders are prioritized and the rest can sit around twiddling their thumbs with the scraps, and can I just say: "thank god for that"?

To be fair though, when Ultimates are released FF14 frequently goes near the top viewership on Twitch so clearly players do care. Just because they can't do it doesn't mean they don't like watching others attempt it. The same is rarely true when other content pieces are added.

Twitch viewership =/= the actual game. Especially since XIV isn't a twitch-driven game to begin with. (thank god for that) I know Twitch viewership for FFXIV also rose sharply when Asmongold streamed it. Meanwhile, I've dealt with plenty of people in and out of game whose most vocal reply to "streamer man plays XIV now" was "Ok, neat, I guess" or "I hope his fanboys don't ruin the atmosphere."

All taht said, I'm not to discounting Ultimates; merely putting the shoe on the other foot. They are cool and good content, but you don't see the vast majority of the playerbase that doesn't enter them calling them "non-content" just because it's content that doesn't personally cater to them.

[Wrecktangle]

There is such a thing as invalid criticism and bad faith actors, though. I've no idea how anyone is even remotely supposed to take someone who goes "all of this? This is non-content. Because I say so! Therefore XIV bad" seriously and humor it as if it's actual critique made by someone in earnest.

For sure, and we've seen it here before, but I don't think discussing the durability of patch content qualifies especially when I agree with some of their points. It's absolutely a challenge to parse through the hyperbole, subjectiveness, misinformation, and good arguments though, but that's what makes it meaningful to discuss and not outright dismiss.

Now with that said, has Grinning been the most eloquent conversationalist? Absolutely not, but I do think some of their arguments have merit.

Additionally, if your viewpoint is "it should cater more to raiders and treadmill enthusiasts," that is fine to have, but it's not out of a lack of ability that CBUIII doesn't embrace that; they simply don't want to. So when you keep flecking the same "why don't we have a gear treadmill! Why don't we get more raids and more ultimates!" complaint at them, you're really not saying something they haven't heard.

It's not that they don't know (especially after people like Xenos and Arthars bellyaching about it for the zillionth time this patch)-- it's that they deliberately choose to abstain from that kind of development path where raiders are prioritized and the rest can sit around twiddling their thumbs with the scraps, and can I just say: "thank god for that"?

Eh, I'd not assume it's "not because they don't want to". It could be any number of variables. They could genuinely want to, but not have found a solution they like yet. They could be waiting for some other prioritization to take place first, etc. They may need to wait for a more seasoned developer to be free, etc.

I don't think going full steam ahead on raiding prioritization is the right call either, and frankly the assumption of someone wanting that is a bit hyperbolic and reductive to discussion.

Twitch viewership =/= the actual game. Especially since XIV isn't a twitch-driven game to begin with. (thank god for that) I know Twitch viewership for FFXIV also rose sharply when Asmongold streamed it. Meanwhile, I've dealt with plenty of people in and out of game whose most vocal reply to "streamer man plays XIV now" was "Ok, neat, I guess" or "I hope his fanboys don't ruin the atmosphere."

Are you suggesting that the huge increase in views during this time are people who have never subscribed to FF14? That's what it sounds like and that's a dishonest take. It's absolutely players tuning in to watch, both former and current alike, which is irrefutable evidence that they do indeed care.

Did hundreds of thousands of players tune in to watch Ishgard restoration?

All taht said, I'm not to discounting Ultimates; merely putting the shoe on the other foot. They are cool and good content, but you don't see the vast majority of the playerbase that doesn't enter them calling them "non-content" just because it's content that doesn't personally cater to them.

I'd argue that Grinning isn't calling them non-content because they don't cater to him, but rather because they're just not durable or all that interesting, which can be fair takes depending on the context. I could be wrong though as I may be misremembering

[Yarathir]

For sure, and we've seen it here before, but I don't think discussing the durability of patch content qualifies especially when I agree with some of their points. It's absolutely a challenge to parse through the hyperbole, subjectiveness, misinformation, and good arguments though, but that's what makes it meaningful to discuss and not outright dismiss.

Now with that said, has Grinning been the most eloquent conversationalist? Absolutely not, but I do think some of their arguments have merit.

It's fine to not have "durable" content. Durable just translates to: "can it artificially extend my playtime?" Which is funny considering Grinning is in the very same post decrying "paper thin content being stretched out."

Eh, I'd not assume it's "not because they don't want to". It could be any number of variables. They could genuinely want to, but not have found a solution they like yet. They could be waiting for some other prioritization to take place first, etc. They may need to wait for a more seasoned developer to be free, etc.

I don't think going full steam ahead on raiding prioritization is the right call either, and frankly the assumption of someone wanting that is a bit hyperbolic and reductive to discussion.

I would assume exactly that. It's not exactly difficult to grab their current systems and artificially gate and stretch them out. Why not put 3 weeks of wait between every 5 quests of MSQ? Why not have the trial be locked behind an extra long quest chain? Why not remove the Tribal mounts and just lock them behind some time wasting achievement? These are all easy ways they could draw stuff out if they simply wished to. Just as they could've made like 3 meager mount reskins, plopped them on the Savage Criterion Dungeon vendor and made them require an absolutely absurd amount of currency from Savage Criterions. To make it "durable."

Making the game raid-centric would take more time because it would require them to switch their entire developing mentality, but if they wanted to do so, they could have done that an expansion ago. The fact of the matter is that if anything, they're more so getting away from that and making more content more accessible, while leaving a few choice pieces of harder PvE content for those who like it. I'm not sure why this is supposed to be a bad thing other than "I want more. Cater to me MORE."

Are you suggesting that the huge increase in views during this time are people who have never subscribed to FF14? That's what it sounds like and that's a dishonest take. It's absolutely players tuning in to watch, both former and current alike, which is irrefutable evidence that they do indeed care.

Did hundreds of thousands of players tune in to watch Ishgard restoration?

Not so much as a hint of that insinuation. I'm saying there's FFXIV players and FFXIV players that are also big twitch viewers. FFXIV is not a twitch-driven game, as I mentioned before--unless you want to make the argument that FFXIV's regular twitch viewer numbers are an indicator of the amount of players. In which case the game would be in truly dire straits.

There are a lot of XIV players that either don't care about Twitch or outright dislike it. There's not the same Twitch-and e-celeb centric culture as there is in a certain other MMO. And in that limited scope, most people mainly watch others progressing MSQ or, like you said, Ultimates.

I'd argue that Grinning isn't calling them non-content because they don't cater to him, but rather because they're just not durable or all that interesting, which can be fair takes depending on the context. I could be wrong though as I may be misremembering

That list sure seems like a lot of "that don't apply to me therefore it's not valid." Also, I have no acknowledgment to offer towards "durable" as a catchphrase in the first place. See: my first response to that terminology.

[NineSpine]

Most of that stuff gets completed in a day. Also, "duty support for heavensward dungeons"? That isn't content for people that have been playing since then. This game has the width of an ocean, but the depth of a lake.

I mean, if you just don't care to live in the real world, there isn't much else to discuss. The idea that most of that is done in a day is beyond delusional.

- - - Updated - - -

Continuation of Main Scenario Quest - This is normal per patch?

Continuation of Tataru’s Grand Endeavor - ok and how is this tied to meaningful content that doesnt die on day 1?

Continuation of Tales of Newfound Adventure - This is normal per patch?

Continuation of Somehow Further Hildibrand Adventures (patch 6.35) - Should of been in earlier in the expansion so yes paper thin to stretch out the expansion.

New Tribal quests for Loporrits (patch 6.35) - yes because dailies is meaningful content, this is designed to stretch out paper thin content.

New MSQ dungeon, Lapis Manalis - mean we use to get 3 dungeons per patch then 2 now 1, so yes still paper thin.

New trials, ??? and ??? (extreme) – boss identity kept secret - This is normal per patch?

New unreal trial, Containment Bay P1T6 (Unreal) - mean, who is this meaningful for? vets? new players, if you are a Vet its useless content, paper thin here.

Continuation of alliance raid, Myths of the Realm part two - Mean its that specific patch for this, its expected and will is done on day 1.

Ultimate duty five (two weeks after 6.3 release) - The only meaningful content in this patch.

New deep dungeon, Eureka Orthos (patch 6.35) - See, this is being released some time after the main patch in order to stretch out the paper thin content, not because its not ready yet.

New Treasure Dungeon, The Shifting Gymnasion Agonon - these are fine I guess, but not meaningful in any way, good for downtime, the only content here that actually has decent replay values.

Duty Support added for remaining Heavensward dungeons – The Great Gubal Library, Sohr Khai, The Aetherochemical Research Facility, Xelphatol, The Antitower, and Baelsar’s Wall - this is not content, this is padding patch notes lol.

New Crystalline Conflict arena in Kugane.

Tool enhancement quests (patch 6.35) - presume crafting related and content for crafters depending how good it is.

New custom deliveries - not content.

New spearfishing location will be added to Upper La Noscea, making it the first area from A Realm Reborn to allow diving, not really content as oppose to expanding something that currently exists because its already paper thin?

New sanctuary ranks and visions mean its not much in the way of content.

New item rewards, materials, crops, animals, isleworks handicrafts, and structures - not content.

Gold Saucer – new course added for Leap of Faith - not really content much is it.



Issue is, it is still paper thin, it looks a lot with the many lines but go over each one, its not much at all.

This list is only meant to impress new players, but people whove played long enough sees right through it.

Most of that is done in day 1, some of it isnt content at all.

I could not possibly care less if someone else finishes a piece of content day 1. You could literally introduce 50 dungeons in one patch and they would all be completed day one. This is a meaningless criticism.

Do you know what 80 paper-thin things are? A big fucking stack of paper, a lot of content. Furthermore, criticizing the content because they always deliver it is just weird. Every patch could be the size of Endwalker and you could say "WELL EVERY PATCH HAS THAT!" These are the weakest attempts at criticism I've seen in this thread so far.

[Yarathir]

If only everything could be artificially timegated and extended more. That way it would be real content....

[Ghost of Cow]

Not so much as a hint of that insinuation. I'm saying there's FFXIV players and FFXIV players that are also big twitch viewers. FFXIV is not a twitch-driven game, as I mentioned before--unless you want to make the argument that FFXIV's regular twitch viewer numbers are an indicator of the amount of players. In which case the game would be in truly dire straits.

There are a lot of XIV players that either don't care about Twitch or outright dislike it. There's not the same Twitch-and e-celeb centric culture as there is in a certain other MMO. And in that limited scope, most people mainly watch others progressing MSQ or, like you said, Ultimates.

I never really understood this viewpoint, and I hear it a lot. "Viewer numbers don't matter" and "everyone who likes the game is playing it, not watching it" and all this other weirdness.

I know it's mostly just because some people really hate the "content creator" community, but claiming that viewership just "doesn't count" really doesn't make any sense.

[Yarathir]

I never really understood this viewpoint, and I hear it a lot. "Viewer numbers don't matter" and "everyone who likes the game is playing it, not watching it" and all this other weirdness.

I know it's mostly just because some people really hate the "content creator" community, but claiming that viewership just "doesn't count" really doesn't make any sense.

Because not every game is a Twitch game. Some games do really well on Twitch, but their overall player numbers aren't amazing. Some games don't do well at all on Twitch but are actually highly popular games. It's not a valid metric for what game does and doesn't do well.

And basing your opinion on the quality or wellbeing of a game off how it does on Twitch seems really misguided. The fact that a lot of avid Twitch watchers seem to conflate Twitch popularity (because they can't conceive of something being well-liked or good without their or their favorite streamer's input/involvement) with the popularity of the game doesn't help.

[Grinning Serpent]

There is no "just leave the game" post there. But admittedly, if you think everything is bad and the game is never adding real content except for Ultimates, I do wonder, unironically, why you stick around?

If you have critique to offer, fine. But just going "uhm sweaty that's not ackchually real content because i say so," then what do you expect people to say? Applaud you for your profound insight? Sympathize with you? It's all a bit comical, really.

I have a lot of problems with the game, but that just means I take breaks. Like, I took a few months off and skipped this tier entirely. I'm playing a new character on a new data center now and just enjoying the chill leveling experience. I may never raid or do "real" content with this character. I might get bored and stop playing for a few months before ever reaching level cap.

But I can offer these issues and areas for improvement *because* I like the game, because the better any given product is, the more its flaws stand out. If a floor is filthy, you're not going to notice dust on the baseboards. But if the floor is nice and clean and well-maintained, the fact that there's dust gathering on the baseboards is going to be *very* noticeable, and it's pretty reasonable to ask, why hasn't anyone dusted the baseboards?

[Yarathir]

I have a lot of problems with the game, but that just means I take breaks. Like, I took a few months off and skipped this tier entirely. I'm playing a new character on a new data center now and just enjoying the chill leveling experience. I may never raid or do "real" content with this character. I might get bored and stop playing for a few months before ever reaching level cap.

But I can offer these issues and areas for improvement *because* I like the game, because the better any given product is, the more its flaws stand out. If a floor is filthy, you're not going to notice dust on the baseboards. But if the floor is nice and clean and well-maintained, the fact that there's dust gathering on the baseboards is going to be *very* noticeable, and it's pretty reasonable to ask, why hasn't anyone dusted the baseboards?

Disliking just about 90% of the content a game has to offer and dismissing just about everything new that's added as "not real content" is not exactly equivalent to "well, I just want this game to improve a bit, it could be so much better" or "wanting them to dust the baseboards", though.

[Grinning Serpent]

Because not every game is a Twitch game. Some games do really well on Twitch, but their overall player numbers aren't amazing. Some games don't do well at all on Twitch but are actually highly popular games. It's not a valid metric for what game does and doesn't do well.

And basing your opinion on the quality or wellbeing of a game off how it does on Twitch seems really misguided. The fact that a lot of avid Twitch watchers seem to conflate Twitch popularity (because they can't conceive of something being well-liked or good without their or their favorite streamer's input/involvement) with the popularity of the game doesn't help.

Twitch viewership is definitely a large part of why Square-Enix is continuing to produce Ultimates instead of content that the other ~90% of players would participate in. It gets the game's name out there and keeps it active for some weeks while guilds and statics are slowly progging the content.

That, and I think like PvP it's one of Yoshida's pet projects. Something developed out of ego more than any desire or need from the playerbase. I don't think that Ultimates are a good investment of work-hours given the very small amount of players who even enter Ultimate, let alone clear it. Same with ranked PvP, or a "competitive PvP" system in general. I don't think most players are interested in laddering or really care about a PvP experience that's fair and balanced, they just want to fuck around and have fun once or twice a day for the XP and tomes and stuff. The PvP Series idea was a good one, but I don't think that many people were clamoring for a massive rework of the PvP system like we got.

But they put all that effort in, and I think it was because *Yoshida* likes MMO-PvP games more than anything. It's what it is.

- - - Updated - - -

Disliking just about 90% of the content a game has to offer and dismissing just about everything new that's added as "not real content" is not exactly equivalent to "well, I just want this game to improve a bit, it could be so much better" or "wanting them to dust the baseboards", though.

I mean, I've said numerous times that I'd be doing tons of Duty Finder if they just made the game more fun to play. Designing classes around rigid, sweaty savage raid balance results in them being very homogeneous and often very separate from their previous iterations in FF games. And the godawful way they have ability progression structured means that it's often lvl 60+ before a class has a smooth flow in its gameplay without major elements missing, so when you get stuck with Halatali or something, it's miserable.

They don't need to rework the content, they need to rework the foundations. Stop caring so much about sweaty parsebrains that aren't even supposed to exist because DPS meters are verboten and focus on being a *Final Fantasy* game. Blue Mage is some of the most fun in the game *because* it doesn't care about sweaty parsing and balancing. See also: Eureka and Bozja with their gimmicks and actions that tell sweaty balance to go pound sand.

Hell, why not just have a non-savage/ultimate it and a savage/ultimate kit, sort of like how you have separate kits for PvE and PvP? That would let you have your cake and eat it, too. Your savage and ultimate experience is carefully tuned and refined so it's perfectly balanced, while in dungeons and normals we get to cut loose and have fun doing stuff that really sells the class fantasy of each class. DRK sacrificing HP for damage or other effects, WAR being a proper berserker (taking and dealing huge amounts of damage), WHM absolutely obliterating anything undead, and so on.

[Wrecktangle]

It's fine to not have "durable" content. Durable just translates to: "can it artificially extend my playtime?" Which is funny considering Grinning is in the very same post decrying "paper thin content being stretched out."

That's not at all what durable content means. Durable content is a content form that is scalable and repeatable. It's not about "artificially" extending playtime.

I would assume exactly that. It's not exactly difficult to grab their current systems and artificially gate and stretch them out. Why not put 3 weeks of wait between every 5 quests of MSQ? Why not have the trial be locked behind an extra long quest chain? Why not remove the Tribal mounts and just lock them behind some time wasting achievement? These are all easy ways they could draw stuff out if they simply wished to. Just as they could've made like 3 meager mount reskins, plopped them on the Savage Criterion Dungeon vendor and made them require an absolutely absurd amount of currency from Savage Criterions. To make it "durable."

I literally have no idea what your point is with this comment. This wasn't what we were talking about at all, is this just a tangent? Attempt to move goalposts? Or a misunderstanding of the topic? My comment was about your matter of fact statement about why they haven't done something.

Making the game raid-centric would take more time because it would require them to switch their entire developing mentality, but if they wanted to do so, they could have done that an expansion ago. The fact of the matter is that if anything, they're more so getting away from that and making more content more accessible, while leaving a few choice pieces of harder PvE content for those who like it. I'm not sure why this is supposed to be a bad thing other than "I want more. Cater to me MORE."

I mean I would argue they're actually spending more time on balance and creating challenging content than ever before; so it definitely seems like they aren't getting away from it. Don't get me wrong, I don't want a raid centric game here, but I'll gladly take more raid centric content. Raid being defined as meaningfully challenging content since that's the context here, but if we're being completely honest I don't think FF14 needs MORE content really, but rather better designed systems that enable deeper content.

Not so much as a hint of that insinuation. I'm saying there's FFXIV players and FFXIV players that are also big twitch viewers. FFXIV is not a twitch-driven game, as I mentioned before--unless you want to make the argument that FFXIV's regular twitch viewer numbers are an indicator of the amount of players. In which case the game would be in truly dire straits.

Let's not move the goal posts. You said and I quote "for a grand majority of the player population, Ultimates aren't real content? Because they're unlikely to ever set a foot in it or care about it?".

I refuted that statement by explaining that Twitch Viewership clearly contradicts your statement. If players didn't care it wouldn't be at its highest viewpoint during progression so it's clear evidence that players do in fact care. To which you tried to declare that they aren't correlated and I asked you to clarify "Are you suggesting that the huge increase in views during this time are people who have never subscribed to FF14?" It's either a yes or no.

There are a lot of XIV players that either don't care about Twitch or outright dislike it. There's not the same Twitch-and e-celeb centric culture as there is in a certain other MMO. And in that limited scope, most people mainly watch others progressing MSQ or, like you said, Ultimates.

You won't find a single person who hates streamer/influencer/content creator culture more than me. I hate the idea of monetizing our opinions and integrity and then muddying it up with ad money.

That list sure seems like a lot of "that don't apply to me therefore it's not valid." Also, I have no acknowledgment to offer towards "durable" as a catchphrase in the first place. See: my first response to that terminology.

I mean looking at the list, a lot of it isn't anything special. I love new dungeons, MSQ, raids, trials, etc. as much as the next person, but those things are all content that I would likely complete day 1. MSQ takes maybe 2 hours tops (not skipping cutscenes), I clear the EX in another 2 hours, farm it another 1-2 after depending on luck. I'll do the alliance raid once, and then I'll only ever see it if it pops in roulette.

I don't do Beast Tribes unless the mount is mind blowing. Half of the list is more menu content, i.e just turning stuff in. A lot of this doesn't apply to me, but I'm not saying it's invalid content, but I'll sure say it's not particularly interesting IMO.

[ONCHEhap]

It's so disingenuous to complain about only getting one dungeon during a patch. As someone who's played the game since day one on average those dungeons are some of the worst in the game as they focused more on quantity than quality back then. Dungeons today are of much higher quality and they're there to serve a gameplay segment to a story that otherwise doesn't really have any.

I've gotta disagree with higher quality in dungeons. Dungeons in modern FFXIV are abysmal, they weren't especially awesome in ARR, but since HW we've been essentially the same dungeon 56 times in a row. Always a corridor with 2*2 trash packs->boss->2*2 trash packs->boss->2*2 trash packs->boss.

FFXIV is very good at boss design and their 8 man content rarely disappoints because of that, but it has the worst dungeon design I've seen in a MMO, and I've played quite a few dogshit MMOs in the last two decades.
They're only worth doing once and only because they're tied to the story, anything past that is pure tedium.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Val's nonsense aside, I didn't see you post a source up for the 71% statement earlier? Was curious if it was just some clickbaiting YTer or actual insider info, etc. I looked at their actual financial statements and didn't see that correlation. You're not usually one to peddle misinformation blindly, so you may have just been duped and wanted to help clarify the air on it.

I never said the entire or even majority of the 71% was due to FFXIV. A lot of SE's overall profits are DOWN, but their ongoing subscription and "operating" profits in the online sector are up, with comments SPECIFICALLY picking out FFXIV for growing subscription base. That was the point. The game continues to grow, such that they're continuing to add new servers.

Dynamis was a wildly popular new data center, seeing a lot of people transfer to the new data center. Likely for housing, as people still raid almost exclusively on Aether. Funny enough, I found a semi-static PF group that meets many nights on aether. Most of the time it's 5-7 people from crystal DC.

[Soikona]

I never really understood this viewpoint, and I hear it a lot. "Viewer numbers don't matter" and "everyone who likes the game is playing it, not watching it" and all this other weirdness.

I know it's mostly just because some people really hate the "content creator" community, but claiming that viewership just "doesn't count" really doesn't make any sense.

It does make sense tho. I don’t even have a twitch account, never mind watching twitch. Dictating the population of a game based on a third party website (that has a community split between love or hate streamers on that note) is the part that doesn’t make any senses.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Continuation of Main Scenario Quest - This is normal per patch?

Continuation of Tataru’s Grand Endeavor - ok and how is this tied to meaningful content that doesnt die on day 1?

Continuation of Tales of Newfound Adventure - This is normal per patch?

Continuation of Somehow Further Hildibrand Adventures (patch 6.35) - Should of been in earlier in the expansion so yes paper thin to stretch out the expansion.

New Tribal quests for Loporrits (patch 6.35) - yes because dailies is meaningful content, this is designed to stretch out paper thin content.

New MSQ dungeon, Lapis Manalis - mean we use to get 3 dungeons per patch then 2 now 1, so yes still paper thin.

New trials, ??? and ??? (extreme) – boss identity kept secret - This is normal per patch?

New unreal trial, Containment Bay P1T6 (Unreal) - mean, who is this meaningful for? vets? new players, if you are a Vet its useless content, paper thin here.

Continuation of alliance raid, Myths of the Realm part two - Mean its that specific patch for this, its expected and will is done on day 1.

Ultimate duty five (two weeks after 6.3 release) - The only meaningful content in this patch.

New deep dungeon, Eureka Orthos (patch 6.35) - See, this is being released some time after the main patch in order to stretch out the paper thin content, not because its not ready yet.

New Treasure Dungeon, The Shifting Gymnasion Agonon - these are fine I guess, but not meaningful in any way, good for downtime, the only content here that actually has decent replay values.

Duty Support added for remaining Heavensward dungeons – The Great Gubal Library, Sohr Khai, The Aetherochemical Research Facility, Xelphatol, The Antitower, and Baelsar’s Wall - this is not content, this is padding patch notes lol.

New Crystalline Conflict arena in Kugane.

Tool enhancement quests (patch 6.35) - presume crafting related and content for crafters depending how good it is.

New custom deliveries - not content.

New spearfishing location will be added to Upper La Noscea, making it the first area from A Realm Reborn to allow diving, not really content as oppose to expanding something that currently exists because its already paper thin?

New sanctuary ranks and visions mean its not much in the way of content.

New item rewards, materials, crops, animals, isleworks handicrafts, and structures - not content.

Gold Saucer – new course added for Leap of Faith - not really content much is it.
/

Translation: Numerous deep and highly anticipated content pieces is "Expected" so you can't count it as deep! Anything I can complete in a few hours isn't content!

As for people wondering about "The RPers", pretty much every piece of new content expands the lore of the world. While most of it might not be important to multitudes of people (Well, aside from ascians) that's because everyone creates very niche characters. But when the "lore" for your character is touched on, it's great. People who had some degree of Ul'dahn background for their characters were ecstatic about variant dungeons because of the lore dump. It's actually rather amazing that FFXIV continues to develop the "old" parts of the world rather than just utterly forgetting about them and pretending they don't exist once their expansion is done.

That we keep hearing about the city states, Ishgarde, Doma, Ala Mhigo and the first is frankly amazing when set beside pretty much every other MMO that utterly neglects previous expansion content.

[Yarathir]

That's not at all what durable content means. Durable content is a content form that is scalable and repeatable. It's not about "artificially" extending playtime.

So yes, that's exactly what it is. You balk at new content that doesn't artificially drag out its purpose. It's basically an extended moan about how Savage Criterion Dungeons didn't have a vendor of goodies or item upgrades to keep people playing it over and over again.

I literally have no idea what your point is with this comment. This wasn't what we were talking about at all, is this just a tangent? Attempt to move goalposts? Or a misunderstanding of the topic? My comment was about your matter of fact statement about why they haven't done something.

Yeah, sorry, I don't do the wishy-washy weasel-words devil's advocate "maybe this or maybe that but we don't know for sure." My point is that it's quite clear that Square could definitely make content more "durable", as that's not exactly some high and lofty art that only some select few game development companies have mastered. Their game design just happens to deliberately stray away from it. You think they couldn't have?

I mean I would argue they're actually spending more time on balance and creating challenging content than ever before; so it definitely seems like they aren't getting away from it. Don't get me wrong, I don't want a raid centric game here, but I'll gladly take more raid centric content. Raid being defined as meaningfully challenging content since that's the context here, but if we're being completely honest I don't think FF14 needs MORE content really, but rather better designed systems that enable deeper content.

And you would be right, they are spending more time on honing their craft and delivering better content than before (which is funny, because that exactly contradicts all the whinging from the usual suspects), but that doesn't mean they're focusing more on catering to raiders. They're just catering to everyone as they did before, but better. Which is good, you know? I'm not saying I don't want there to be no high end content, I'm just saying I don't want it to dominate everything else, which the usual loud voices in these threads made it clear they do wish for.

Let's not move the goal posts. You said and I quote "for a grand majority of the player population, Ultimates aren't real content? Because they're unlikely to ever set a foot in it or care about it?".

I refuted that statement by explaining that Twitch Viewership clearly contradicts your statement. If players didn't care it wouldn't be at its highest viewpoint during progression so it's clear evidence that players do in fact care. To which you tried to declare that they aren't correlated and I asked you to clarify "Are you suggesting that the huge increase in views during this time are people who have never subscribed to FF14?" It's either a yes or no.

I didn't move any goalposts. You set an imaginary goalpost and then expected me to abide by it. I said that for most people, Ultimates aren't real content or relevant because they will never get to do that themselves. That is a fact. People watching races on Twitch doesn't change that, because content relevance isn't decided upon by Twitch viewership. People who are bored and want to see others tackle what they will never even attempt is pretty common, but that doesn't in itself justify its existence. I don't get why you're so upset to the point of hopping to Twitch views pedantry, anyway.

My point is clear: Ultimates have a place and so does more casual side content. I've no problem with either existing, but for the many players who have chosen to never set foot in an Ultimate because they know their limits, Ultimate content is less relevant than a dungeon is to an Ultimate raider. Yet both deserve to exist and neither are non-content just because it doesn't cater to one group or the other. By getting defensive over it, you're basically proving my point that you don't like the notion of the shoe being on the other foot and content you like being trivialized just because it doesn't appeal to another group.

You won't find a single person who hates streamer/influencer/content creator culture more than me. I hate the idea of monetizing our opinions and integrity and then muddying it up with ad money.

I'm happy for you, or sad. Whichever you prefer. Playfully flippant remarks aside--I mean, I could say "you have a funny way of showing it," but it isn't really my business how you choose to conduct yourself and express any potential disdain you may or may not have for a phenomenon or activity.

I mean looking at the list, a lot of it isn't anything special.

To you.

I love new dungeons, MSQ, raids, trials, etc. as much as the next person, but those things are all content that I would likely complete day 1. MSQ takes maybe 2 hours tops (not skipping cutscenes), I clear the EX in another 2 hours, farm it another 1-2 after depending on luck. I'll do the alliance raid once, and then I'll only ever see it if it pops in roulette.

I'm waiting to hear the "but," here, because so far I see no real negative, or point being made for or against this content.

I don't do Beast Tribes unless the mount is mind blowing. Half of the list is more menu content, i.e just turning stuff in. A lot of this doesn't apply to me, but I'm not saying it's invalid content, but I'll sure say it's not particularly interesting IMO.

Again: to you.

For someone who likes to play devil's advocate for Grinning Serpent a lot, you sure seem to struggle to accept that other people might enjoy or get value out of things you might not find personally appealing, which I find a little curious.

[Ghost of Cow]

It does make sense tho. I don’t even have a twitch account, never mind watching twitch. Dictating the population of a game based on a third party website (that has a community split between love or hate streamers on that note) is the part that doesn’t make any senses.

No one said anything about "dictating population" or anything. Naturally you can't draw any direct comparisons.

But it's also silly to claim that highly popular games and/or forms of content are just magically at that level of viewership and that it has nothing to do with anything.

[Yarathir]

No one said anything about "dictating population" or anything. Naturally you can't draw any direct comparisons.

But it's also silly to claim that highly popular games and/or forms of content are just magically at that level of viewership and that it has nothing to do with anything.

Roblox is a pretty popular game, isn't it?

Isn't its Twitch presence minuscule?