Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Kumorii]

The show can be considered successful and the execs can still be scrambling because the show may not have met their expectations against the competition. If all you're boiling things down to are failure and success, then you're being anal retentive here.

You don't sound like you even know what rumor I'm talking about. Perhaps you should look into correcting that before commenting about the House of the Dragon and Rings of Power metrics. You know, for contexts sake.

Doesn't even have to be that.
It can be successful but they can also see the reactions and the reception to try and foresee the future and what they need to take the show next. It's quite common to look at the market and try and see what the future holds rather than focus on what happened now.

We recently had the Morbius incident where they thought the higher numbers in engagement meant they should do a re-release... only for it to flop again.
High numbers isn't everything when you ignore context of those numbers. It's why there are fields of expertise in number crunching because it's not "NUMBERS HIGH, NUMBERS GOOD".

Hell, Amazon even have conflated numbers with their prime. So there's an even higher expertise in research required since a lot of people who watch will watch "just because" there's nothing else and they already pay for it. It's the same with any streaming service really. There's lots of things people watch just because and it's a factor any researcher have to take into account to gauge the popularity and success of a show.

[rogoth]

That's me - I mean, I'm not sure it's unhealthy, but I'm obsessed with and furious at how terrible and cynical a production it is. Here's my backstory:

I read LOTR for the first time in middle school - it was my favorite book ever. My dad had a policy that he wouldn't let me reread books I had already read, and this was prior to the internet, so I got it from the library, read it, returned it, and that was it, except for two things -

1. I used to go to the library in high school during my study hall and read the copy they had there.
2. I got a gift certificate to buy a book, and my dad let me buy the Silmarillion because I hadn't read it yet. So I read that book obsessively for years, just open it up and read a section occasionally. I've probably read it 15 times.

As an adult I obviously bought the series, watched the Peter Jackson movies and loved them. I remember being mildly annoyed at the changes in The Two Towers, and I understand the Tolkien family's critique that they made some of the characters a bit too "heroic" compared to who they were in the books, but I generally loved the movies. I watched Return of the King at a midnight showing and went to work the next day totally exhausted.

From the first moments it was obvious that this was going to be bad - Amazon paid some influencers and called them "superfans" and had them do a review of the show, and it was fawning and sycophantic and also, painfully obvious that these people were not actually fans of Tolkien (one of them was later asked on her twitch stream what she thought of it and she said that she hadn't watched it yet because she was watching House of the Dragon). One of the other "Superfans" was a big Percy Jackson fan but his entire youtube channel didn't have a single mention of Tolkien, and his website where he reviewed fantasy books didn't mention it either. This was repeated worldwide, as there were complaints about the videos in other countries and languages.

Just think about that - Tolkien and Lord of the Rings, one of the most beloved series anywhere, and they couldn't even be bothered to find actual fans of the show to do the review!

This series comes out, and sure it looks nice, and it has a fairly generic fantasy plot, but from the first episode it's an absolute mockery of Tolkien's work. So yes, the actual fans are angry - a megabillionaire thought he could just write a big check to buy the big IP, then ignore that IP's fanbase completely in order write a 2022 fantasy plot (ELVES WILL TAKE OUR JOBS!!), and it would somehow still be successful. This is a fight against these kind of dumb manipulative things pulled by big corporations, where they are ruining something that is great.

And while we are the underdogs - Amazon gets a lot of lukewarm reviews from various reviewers, many of whom have some financial incentive to say that it's good (like The Ringer, which gives seemingly warm reviews just before Payne and McKay to show up as guests), and the show has an 85% positive ranking from critics - we are making progress. That 39% rotten rating on Rotten Tomatoes hasn't budged, thank god. They deleted a bunch of reviews from Amazon early on (including mine) to try to keep the score higher, but hopefully they know internally that their show sucks balls. Hopefully the next shoe to fall is the Emmys, where House of the Dragon cleans their clock.

At this point we have to win. We have to beat them, and make it clear that bullshit like this is not how you handle content that is beloved by fans.

except they did find 'fans' to review the show, they found the perfect set of 'progressive', 'brave', 'diverse', to push the woke agenda that this show was built upon, the very foundation of this story was allegory for modern world politics and economics, it's a bastardisation of epic proportions, but don't think for one second they didn't bother spending any effort on these kinds of things, if anything i would bet they spent THE MOST effort on making sure they had the 'right' mouthpieces in place to parrot 'the message', and would refer back to that marketing as a shield against whatever criticism they face like they did with that laughable and pathetic twitter bullshit where they paid some of the actors of the PJ films to wear a t-shirt that was all about 'inclusivity' or whatever bullshit narrative they tried to push.

these showrunners and the overall management in charge all signed off on this kind of sycophantic, pandering behaviour, and endorsed it as much as possible not only throughout the entire marketing campaign, but also throughout the entire 'plot' of the show, everything is crafted to sell you 'the message', and in so doing they have pissed on the grave of Tolkien.

[rhorle]

It is deafening to me, and you choosing to believe otherwise doesn't change that.

Right. We are discussing your comment. It still shows that the silence isn't deafening because they've addressed stuff a little bit after the show finale. They addressed stuff a lot during the course of the show. Why do they have to repeat similar things after the finale? Why do they need to address any rumor at all? Why does the lack of addressing a rumor make that rumor true?

[Triceron]

Right. We are discussing your comment. It still shows that the silence isn't deafening because they've addressed stuff a little bit after the show finale. They addressed stuff a lot during the course of the show. Why do they have to repeat similar things after the finale? Why do they need to address any rumor at all? Why does the lack of addressing a rumor make that rumor true?

And there are articles covering exactly your questions.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/startef...emmys_a119/amp

"I heard from someone who has a connect at Amazon that – if you wanna know – that effectively, they're going to be retooling," he explained (via). "And [Payne and McKay] are more than likely…they're not gonna be publicly fired, but their role will be reduced."

"Potentially just remaining in the writers room," Chris Gore clarified, "but my understanding is they're looking for more experienced showrunners."

And

Allegedly, Amazon wants to avoid overwhelmingly negative buzz, associated with such a decision, which will sink any hopes of The Rings of Power winning at least some award categories (via).


Like I said, you keep talking about things you have clearly zero understanding of. You keep talking without knowing any of the context. You keep accusing and asking questions that would easily be answered if you bothered to look, and make excuses that you are clearly wrong about like saying Amazon doesn't report on performance after a series is fully released. Like, you're so full of shit because you're not actually interested in discussing the topic of the conversation. I gave you fair advice to look into the runors before you reply, and you ignored that both times. You just argue the fuck out of anything I say here for the sake of arguing, trying to prove anything I say to be wrong.

Dishonest as fuck.



Again, I have not said any of these rumors are true, only that the silence and lack of addressing any rumor makes it possible for it to be true, namely because these rumors already outline this reasoning. There are plenty media covering these rumors, multiple rumors floating around. The ones i listed above are two differently sourced rumors.

The fact that you disagree with my opinion that the silence is deafening does not give you precedent to 'call me out' on somehow being wrong about said opinion. If you have a different opinion I can live with that, but I won't stand for the blatant gaslighting you're attempting here. I call that out for the dishonesty that it is.

- - - Updated - - -

Hell, Amazon even have conflated numbers with their prime. So there's an even higher expertise in research required since a lot of people who watch will watch "just because" there's nothing else and they already pay for it. It's the same with any streaming service really. There's lots of things people watch just because and it's a factor any researcher have to take into account to gauge the popularity and success of a show.

Yeah, there has been plenty of manipulation on Amazon's part. I wouldn't be surprised since they literally have the money to do this.

[rhorle]

And there are articles covering exactly your questions.

That only explains the rumor. Not why you think every rumor has to be answered. Or why a show is seen as bad by the studio when not answering those rumors. If lack of addressing a rumor only makes it possibly true then silence is not deafening. Every rumor is potentially true. So it not being refuted doesn't mean anything. Seeing as how you are saying Amazon manipulated numbers and stuff wouldn't you just say they are lying if they said that rumor isn't true?

The best line from your article: Of course, this rumor comes from an "anonymous insider source", and it is published by people who are openly vitriolic towards The Rings of Power

[Triceron]

That only explains the rumor. Not why you think every rumor has to be answered.

Why does it matter to you what I think about rumors being answered? Why do you need an explanation at all? Surely I don't owe you one, considering my personal opinion does not concern you in the slightest.

Why are you gatekeeping, Rhorle? Why are you being so dishonest against anything and everything I say? I didn't poop in your cheerios, you picked it up and put it there yourself.

[rhorle]

Why does it matter to you what I think about rumors being answered?

That is what the topic of the discussion has been. It isn't gate keeping to ask you to explain yourself.

[Triceron]

I mean that rather compounds the point that your the one being dishonest because of last experience with Rhorle.

Just to follow up on this, I find it funny that after I've addressed this you've fallen quite silent. Like you only came out to point out my supposed dishonesty, but not address Rhorle at all.

I wonder what this says about you, Lorgar.

- - - Updated - - -

That is what the topic of the discussion has been. It isn't gate keeping to ask you to explain yourself.

You aren't owed an explanation. All you did was accuse me of expressing an opinion you happen to not agree with, for pages, and failed a gaslighting attempt. All you were looking to do was argue for the sake of arguing, something I've pointed out from the start.

[rhorle]

You aren't owed an explanation, and that has never been the topic considering you've accused me for pages before now asking something you could have easily asked at the start, instead of asking one after a failed gaslighting attempt in trying to tell me my opinion was wrong.

The topic has been about your comment that Amazon's silence is deafening from the start. Things weren't asked at the start because discussions evolve as participants contribute. If you don't wish to discuss then stop responding. This is why I said to put me back on ignore because you always start out with civil discourse but rarely stay there.

[Triceron]

The topic has been about your comment that Amazon's silence is deafening from the start. Things weren't asked at the start because discussions evolve as participants contribute. If you don't wish to discuss then stop responding. This is why I said to put me back on ignore because you always start out with civil discourse but rarely stay there.

It's not civil when your line of argument is "the silence is not deafening" and trying to gaslight an opinion that I've expressed. One that I've clearly explained to you that I am completely fine with mutual disagreement, and that your gaslighting attempts are pointless and trivial.

I don't need to ignore you, I'm fine with breaking down your bullshit right here in front of you. I mean, why would I give up the chance to throw the bullshit coming out of your mouth back in your face? That's half the reason I come to these forums.


Let's see what you've said so far. You made claims that Amazon doesn't say anything about their shows after the series release. After I pointed it out multiple times and you failing to put any effort into looking into something that was easily googled up, you admitted you were wrong.

So how did you come about to make the claim in the first place? Well I can tell you how. You bullshitted it, out of clear ignorance. If you simply weren't aware, then I gave you the benefit of the doubt and provided the example of the Boys. The fact you kept pushing it shows that you chose to double down on your bullshit.

You never confirmed your own claims. You didn't bother looking into it even after I told you about the Boys. You weren't regarding the conversation civilly at all. You were merely doubling down on your blatantly wrong excuse, and using it to perpetuate a pointless argument. At no point did you relent and consider that your own claims may be unconfirmed, you doubled down on it as if it were true. Now, what would happen if I didn't know about the Boys? If I didn't know about Amazon's own actions prior to Rings of Power? What you would be presenting in this argument would effectively be gaslighting with bullshit. Trying to pass off your bullshit as fact. This is dishonest as fuck.

You see? I don't need to put you on ignore at all. I can put stuff up like this right here in front of you. For everyone to acknowledge the bullshit that you're already full of. I already expose your attempts at twisting facts, pushing bullshit as fact, and gaslighting. Simply said, this was never a civil discussion because you came at this in bad faith from the start. You may have fooled Rageonit and Lorgar, but they seem suspiciously silent now and don't seem to be running to your defense.

[rhorle]

It's not civil when your line of argument is "the silence is not deafening" and trying to gaslight an opinion that I've expressed.

Having an opposite opinion is not gaslighting. Why is it that discussion can only happen when everyone agrees with you? If you are fine with mutual disagreement then stop attacking because we disagree on something. Lmao.

[InfiniteCharger]

It does not. Again, look at the date the article about his resignation was posted. You do know how to tell date and time, right? I'm not guessing about him being involved with the deal. I used another source, a person that was invited to Amazon events and got information first-hand, as evidence of him still being in charge when the deal was signed.

Again, the point was the same site you referenced contradicted themselves and you are basing your statement on an article from an unnamed and unverified "source". Whereas the article contradicting this has an actual verified source showing the date of resignation. You seem not to be able to grasp the fact that his being involved was unlikely if he "officially" resigned long before the deal was announced. He may have still had some role at the estate but no longer in authority to affect any plans or activities taking place.

[Triceron]

Having an opposite opinion is not gaslighting. Why is it that discussion can only happen when everyone agrees with you? If you are fine with mutual disagreement then stop attacking because we disagree on something. Lmao.

You literally said this didn't you?

"So then the silence, and lack of addressing them, is not deafening."

That would be gaslighting, because you're trying to establish this as a standard fact, rather than expressing any opinion. You certainly aren't phrasing this in any way that I would consider to be an expression of your opinion. Because if you did, my previous reply should have easily sufficed to prevent your above attempt at gaslighting.


If you don't think it is defeaning then that is your opinion. I'm not quite sure you need to address this as though 'silence is defeaning' is something that has to apply to you.

What exactly are you arguing here, that you don't think the silence is defeaning? Well I am fine you have that opinion. What more do you need here?



There's not much for you to salvage here because you literally dug the hole that you're in right now. I know the way you argue, and I can bait you into falling into your own traps. The fact you even bothered to continue is literally a product of your own ignorance, since I gave you ample room to edge out of the conversation. You have a difference opinion and I already agreed that I'm fine with that. The fact you kept going on clearly shows this isn't just about your opinion, it's about my opinion, and how you literally are attempting to gaslight me into changing it.


You can't hide behind an 'opposite opinion' because you literally didn't express your opinion at all here. At no point in this have you even given your opinion. Let's look through every post you've replied to me; is there any point where you even mention disagreement? No. All you've been doing is trying to prove that every statement I've made is somehow wrong. You actually have no opinion here, since you choose to interrogate rather than discuss opinions. See all the things I would miss out on here if I put you on ignore? lol.

Dishonest as fuck. Assholery abound. Gaslighting, lying, willing ignorance, bad faith. I can call you out on all of this because you literally did all these things, and there are pages of record to put this all into context.

[rhorle]

Again, the point was the same site you referenced contradicted themselves and you are basing your statement on an article from an unnamed and unverified "source".

They did not contradict themselves. Date of resignation doesn't actually contradict when the deal was signed. You have no source but "I say so" for him not being involved. I have at least a source that gives more weight to it. Deals are not required to be announced on the same day they are made. Why is it so hard for you to entertain the idea that he made the Amazon deal as his last act?

- - - Updated - - -

That would be gaslighting, because you're trying to establish this as a standard fact, rather than expressing your own opinion. You certainly aren't phrasing this in any way that I would consider to be an expression of your opinion.

So I can't have an opinion that is counter to yours? That it can't be opinion unless it meets your arbitrary and unstated rules for opinions? Lmao.

[Triceron]

So I can't have an opinion that is counter to yours? That it can't be opinion unless it meets your arbitrary and unstated rules for opinions? Lmao.

You never expressed any opinion.

You never made a disagreement. You only quoted my own statements and tried to prove them to be wrong. So no, it has nothing to do with stifling your ability to express your opinion, because you never provided one to begin with.

You were just being a troll and choosing to harass me for saying something you happen to not agree with. And for whatever reason, you tried to gaslight to get your way.

Who the fuck does that? Well, you apparently.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Just to follow up on this, I find it funny that after I've addressed this you've fallen quite silent. Like you only came out to point out my supposed dishonesty, but not address Rhorle at all.

I wonder what this says about you, Lorgar.

it says that I haven’t checked the media forum since yesterday and your post to other people don’t show up in my notifications, though I see your self important enough to think that they should.

But feel free to link your addressing and rhole being dishonest and I’ll happily say your not the only dishonest poster in the thread.

[rhorle]

You never expressed any opinion.

Not agreeing with your assessment is an opinion.

[Triceron]

Bounding Into Comics also mentions a rumor that Amazon is considering totally rebooting The Rings of Power, attempting a total do-over in season two that may see an entirely different storyline or even characters. Given the hundreds of millions Amazon has committed here, that rumor is either complete nonsense or a desperation move to save the series, and sadly, both seem plausible at this point.[/i]

The full reboot rumor doesn't really have a lot of legs. The Showrunners have come out to talk about S2 and said it's pretty much locked in place with only room for slight changes. Even if they're planning on a 2024 release, there isn't much time in place for a full reboot, nor would it even necessarily make sense from a production standpoint to do so. If they're already committed to the 5 season thing, it's not by dropping everything entirely. This kind of rumor is on the level of fans expecting the Star Wars sequel trilogy to get rebooted after the poor reception of the Last Jedi.

- - - Updated - - -

Not agreeing with your assessment is an opinion.

Yeah but you never disagreed.

You came at this saying it wasn't silence at all because they had podcasts and pre-recorded Mipcom interviews released after the finale. Is this opinion? Nope. This is you trying to argue how I was wrong.

I clarified I was talking in context to them talking about the success of the show. You then provided Variety articles talking about the success of the first two weeks. Is this an expression of your opinion? Again, no it is not. All you did was try to point out how my statement was wrong, still out of context.

If you expressed any opinion, I'd be fine with discussing with you and mutually disagreeing respectfully. At no point did you ever express an actual opinion. Just a spattering of accusations and implications on how I could be wrong.

[rhorle]

Yeah but you never disagreed. You came at this saying it wasn't silence at all

So I didn't disagree but I stated something that didn't agree with your assessment?

[Triceron]

So I didn't disagree but I stated something that didn't agree with your assessment?

You tried to correct a statement I made. That isn't a disagreement. Like if someone said Trump shouldn't be back in office because he caused COVID, I could correct them in saying he didn't actually cause COVID, without disagreeing with the opinion that he shouldn't be back in office.

At no point did you state that you disagreed with anything I said. Right now you still haven't actually confirmed it, just arguing in the possibility that you may have been disagreeing.

And I'm not even sure why, since it's obvious you've never been interested in sharing opinions in the first place.

This wasn't about your opinions. Nothing I said would have stifled your ability to express your own opinion. This was all about your inability to accept my opinion being expressed.