8,000,000,000 people!

[BeepBoo]

So why haven't you done that, then? Laziness?

First off, we're like 1 year out from being millionaires. Second, yes. Laziness and complacency. That doesn't mean I wouldn't gladly live lavish wasteful excessive life if it was handed to me. Something tells me you wouldn't because you'd feel guilty, though.

You saying it doesn't mean it's backed up by evidence, lol.

75th percentile income in the us is ~90k usd.
75th percentile income in the eu is ~70k usd.

With the exceptional concern of someone who needs a lot of health care and has bad/no health insurance, everything is more expensive in the EU. That 70k gets more tax. Other goods (like a GPU, sports car, etc) are vastly more expensive in the EU. So, not only do they make less money, but the things they're buying with that money cost more.

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Then it's not "truly free", is it? Because it were "truly free" it would entail giving all involved parties a seat at the table, and that includes the people who are bearing the costs written off as externalities.

True freedom isn't actually fair.

Example:

In a truly free world, you're on a hike. You decide to go walking along a cliff side, because you can and you think it's fun. You slip and are now hanging off the edge. I come by. I get to exercise my freedom and more valuable position to negotiate with you if I want. "Hey bud, looks like you're in some trouble. I can pull you up, but you have to agree to be my slave."

Or I could do the decent thing and just save you, but I'm not obligated to. I'm free to choose which way I want to approach the situation, because I'm the one with all the power and you have none of the power.

And it would be even better if the industry norm was producing durable goods (and thus less waste) as a baseline. QED.

You act like just because the industry would make only quality goods that they'd somehow be cheaper? Or are you saying there should just be a bunch of people running around without any shoes at all because they still can't afford that minimum shoe price? Or are you going further and saying we should all be willing to chip in to get less fortunate people a pair of those quality boots if they can't get it themselves (no fukkin way lol).

[Elegiac]

First off, we're like 1 year out from being millionaires. Second, yes. Laziness and complacency. That doesn't mean I wouldn't gladly live lavish wasteful excessive life if it was handed to me. Something tells me you wouldn't because you'd feel guilty, though.

Like I said, the implicit self-own is hilarious.

And for my part it's less guilt and more understanding that excessive levels of privilege has a tendency to, as Frank Herbert put it, disfigure the soul.

75th percentile income in the us is ~90k usd.
75th percentile income in the eu is ~70k usd.

With the exceptional concern of someone who needs a lot of health care and has bad/no health insurance, everything is more expensive in the EU. That 70k gets more tax. Other goods (like a GPU, sports car, etc) are vastly more expensive in the EU. So, not only do they make less money, but the things they're buying with that money cost more.

You do realise that your price comparison isn't accurate because EU prices include VAT and 2+ year warranties as a baseline whereas US prices don't, right?

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True freedom isn't actually fair.

Then it isn't "true freedom", because unfairness necessarily involves coercive elements. Fairly simple concept.

You act like just because the industry would make only quality goods that they'd somehow be cheaper?

You having to buy fewer sets of boots over the course of your life would in fact involve a reduction of cost, yes.

Or are you saying there should just be a bunch of people running around without any shoes at all because they still can't afford that minimum shoe price? Or are you going further and saying we should all be willing to chip in to get less fortunate people a pair of those quality boots if they can't get it themselves (no fukkin way lol).

Thanks for demonstrating my point about privilege disfiguring the soul.

[BeepBoo]

You do realise that your price comparison isn't accurate because EU prices include VAT and 2+ year warranties as a baseline whereas US prices don't, right?

You do realize that VAT is just even more tax getting taken out of my income, right? At the end of the day, the only thing I care about is how much take home I get and the cost of goods on the shelves. Also, just because the US doesn't mandate baseline warranties on things (I highly doubt you have 2 year warranties on anything like shoes) doesn't mean we don't have them on our products. Look at any BMW. Even without VAT included, it's still vastly more expensive to own and operate, and the US DEFINITELY still has warranties on them.

[Elegiac]

You do realize that VAT is just even more tax getting taken out of my income, right?

This is irrelevant to your claim that Europeans are worse off, because many places in the US also have things like sales tax; they just aren't included in standard price calculations when comparing the two markets.

Also, just because the US doesn't mandate baseline warranties on things (I highly doubt you have 2 year warranties on anything like shoes) doesn't mean we don't have them on our products.

It does mean that it isn't typically included in a baseline calculation of price as with sales tax, which distorts the comparison.

Look at any BMW. Even without VAT included, it's still vastly more expensive to own and operate, and the US DEFINITELY still has warranties on them.

It's almost as if luxury cars are veblen goods which aren't particularly relevant to discussions of price relating to quality of life.

[Endus]

The US has vastly more millionaires than anywhere else in the world. The only conclusion I can draw from that is that it's easier here than anywhere else.

"Millionaire" isn't a marker for wealth, and hasn't been for decades. Most farmers are "millionaires"; the property value of the farm and the equipment adds up pretty quick. They're also so tight, financially, that most of them are struggling, and a bad year can potentially wipe them out. When I was touching base with local farmers when working up some agri-business policy measures for a local county (as part of a team), it wasn't remotely unusual to meet with a Mennonite farmer with a $4 million workshop on-site that they used as their side business for auto parts manufacturing.

Also, if we're talking as a percentage of the population, you're not even right about that stat.

True freedom isn't actually fair.

Example:

In a truly free world, you're on a hike. You decide to go walking along a cliff side, because you can and you think it's fun. You slip and are now hanging off the edge. I come by. I get to exercise my freedom and more valuable position to negotiate with you if I want. "Hey bud, looks like you're in some trouble. I can pull you up, but you have to agree to be my slave."

Or I could do the decent thing and just save you, but I'm not obligated to. I'm free to choose which way I want to approach the situation, because I'm the one with all the power and you have none of the power.

It's always fascinating when pro-capitalists make arguments that are predicated on "I can be as shit a person as I want to, and the concepts of altruism and compassion baffle me", and expect to be taken seriously.

You're right; "maximum freedom for some individuals" is not a tenable platform on which to build a society, though. That's the trick with "freedom" as an ideal; you're either maximizing it for those in power, or sharing it among everyone, and the latter necessarily requires limits on those freedoms where they run up against other people's freedoms. And that's the better option. The alternative is just wanting to be in the top echelon so you get to predate on and abuse those beneath you, who don't get to be free.

You act like just because the industry would make only quality goods that they'd somehow be cheaper? Or are you saying there should just be a bunch of people running around without any shoes at all because they still can't afford that minimum shoe price? Or are you going further and saying we should all be willing to chip in to get less fortunate people a pair of those quality boots if they can't get it themselves (no fukkin way lol).

If you suppress profit motives, yes, prices will drop. And paying 2x as much for a product that lasts 5-10x as long is "cheaper", over the long run.

And if your societal baseline involves forcing people to go shoeless because "fuck poor people", you're a villain and nothing you're arguing should be taking seriously as anything but a villain monologue from a silly Disney animated film.

[BeepBoo]

This is irrelevant to your claim that Europeans are worse off, because many places in the US also have things like sales tax; they just aren't included in standard price calculations when comparing the two markets.

Again, with everything included, goods are still cheaper here than in EU.

It does mean that it isn't typically included in a baseline calculation of price as with sales tax, which distorts the comparison.

You're assuming I'm not equating out the door prices for things when I, in fact, am.

It's almost as if luxury cars are veblen goods which aren't particularly relevant to discussions of price relating to quality of life.

"This nicer car that definitely impacts quality of life isn't relevant to the discussion because I say so!" k.

Pick nearly any good. I don't care what it is. We can do a price comparison.

[Elegiac]

Again, with everything included, goods are still cheaper here than in EU.

You're assuming I'm not equating out the door prices for things when I, in fact, am.

Considering you've not shown any of your sources or work for "everything being cheaper in the US", I'm free to make any assumptions I like.

Especially when your positions are consistently sociopathic and merit not one iota of benefit of the doubt.

"This nicer car that definitely impacts quality of life isn't relevant to the discussion because I say so!" k.

If you can discount healthcare because reasons then I can absolutely discount owning a BMW.

[Endus]

Considering you've not shown any of your sources or work for "everything being cheaper in the US", I'm free to make any assumptions I like.

Especially when your positions are consistently sociopathic and merit not one iota of benefit of the doubt.

I mean, I haven't been to Europe since before the EU (2001ish), but I backpacked for a month from London to Santorini and back, and other than London, stuff was priced pretty comparably to Canadian prices in some places (France), or largely cheaper (Spain, Italy outside of Rome, Greece). That's anecdotal, obviously, but I have little reason to take his claim that seriously.

[Elegiac]

And if your societal baseline involves forcing people to go shoeless because "fuck poor people", you're a villain and nothing you're arguing should be taking seriously as anything but a villain monologue from a silly Disney animated film.

I don't know what's funnier: the fact that we shouldn't take his opinions on how to build wealth seriously because he's self-admittedly too lazy to actually build it himself, or the demonstration that living in privilege has a tendency to make you crueler and less empathetic.

"I may be a selfish asshole in a loveless marriage whose funeral will be more sparsely attended than Jay Gatsby's but at least I lived a life wherein my own lack of effort which prevented me from obtaining the riches I so dearly coveted entitled me to look down on the poor and people with chronic health issues."

[ParanoiD84]

We where only 600 million people in the 1700's and 1.6 billion in the 1900's so it have escalated pretty wild last hundred years.

[Shadowferal]

Again, with everything included, goods are still cheaper here than in EU.

Your beliefs and attitude would quickly change were you to live permanently in the US.

[Elegiac]

I mean, I haven't been to Europe since before the EU (2001ish), but I backpacked for a month from London to Santorini and back, and other than London, stuff was priced pretty comparably to Canadian prices in some places (France), or largely cheaper (Spain, Italy outside of Rome, Greece). That's anecdotal, obviously, but I have little reason to take his claim that seriously.

That's also been my experience.

The only real comparison where things in the US are legitimately cheaper is when you factor in the shit quality goods from Wal-Mart and the like that wouldn't be sold elsewhere for health and safety reasons.

We where only 600 million people in the 1700's and 1.6 billion in the 1900's so it have escalated pretty wild last hundred years.

Reduced infant mortality is a hell of a drug.

[BeepBoo]

Considering you've not shown any of your sources or work for "everything being cheaper in the US", I'm free to make any assumptions I like.

I'm giving you an opportunity to pick whatever good you want so we can compare.

If you can discount healthcare because reasons then I can absolutely discount owning a BMW.

I'm not discounting it. I'm flat out GIVING it to you as something you have that's cheaper and better. I'm skipping it because there's no point in discussing it. The thought is "is cheaper healthcare enough to offset the other higher costs of everything else"? For me especially, since it accounts for near 0% of my expenses outside of the monthly premium of $80, it definitely isn't.

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Your beliefs and attitude would quickly change were you to live permanently in the US.

I am born and raised living in the US now... and I love it?

The only real comparison where things in the US are legitimately cheaper is when you factor in the shit quality goods from Wal-Mart and the like that wouldn't be sold elsewhere for health and safety reasons.

Gas? Food? Most construction materials?

[XDurionX]

Eh most articles I've seen on the issue suggest that we peaked and are heading to an irreversible population decline.

We've reached peak child in the past, population will still grow to 10-11ish billions because people will get older.

[Elegiac]

I'm giving you an opportunity to pick whatever good you want so we can compare.

I'm not discounting it. I'm flat out GIVING it to you as something you have that's cheaper and better. I'm skipping it because there's no point in discussing it. The thought is "is cheaper healthcare enough to offset the other higher costs of everything else"? For me especially, since it accounts for near 0% of my expenses outside of the monthly premium of $80

You're also discounting education, transportation, and a myriad of other public services that more than make up for the ostensible 20,000 dollar gap.

I'll also point out that if your only healthcare expense is an $80 premium you're likely going to have worse health outcomes in later life due to a lack of access to preventative medicine. Here's hoping your insurance company doesn't decide those conditions are preexisting.

Gas? Food? Most construction materials?

Outside of this recent nonsense with Russia, higher gas prices aren't as impactful to most people's quality of life because Europe is far less car reliant.

Food prices are, again, comparable when you break down the EU by region and compare it to regional US costs (i.e. high COL areas like Ille-de-France will be on par with places like NYC).

Construction costs are higher upfront, but even out when you take into account higher energy efficiency and longer lifetime due to more stringent building codes.

[BeepBoo]

You're also discounting education, transportation, and a myriad of other public services that more than make up for the ostensible 20,000 dollar gap.

Public transit isn't something I'd ever utilize willingly. Education is hard because while a lot of EU colleges are "free", you also can't buy your way into them and have to be a good student to get access. I'm trying to stick to cost of goods and quality of life from a materialistic standpoint 1) because that's easier 2) because that's the "quality of life" I'm personally interested in.

I'll also point out that if your only healthcare expense is an $80 premium you're likely going to have worse health outcomes in later life due to a lack of access to preventative medicine. Here's hoping your insurance company doesn't decide those conditions are preexisting.

I'm confused as to why you think that, but k. I'm free to go in and utilize the hospital whenever I want or need. I just don't because I don't need to. I don't have any health conditions and every year I get a physical and blood work that shows I'm in excellent shape (because I am). What preventative medicine do I need, exactly?

[Shadowferal]

I am born and raised living in the US now... and I love it?

And yet you've been posting as if you're one of those "thatcherites."

[Elegiac]

Public transit isn't something I'd ever utilize willingly. Education is hard because while a lot of EU colleges are "free", you also can't buy your way into them and have to be a good student to get access. I'm trying to stick to cost of goods and quality of life from a materialistic standpoint 1) because that's easier 2) because that's the "quality of life" I'm personally interested in.

You can just admit that you can't actually support your argument without distorting the metrics for quality of life, you know.

I'm confused as to why you think that

Because if you are, as you describe, one of the people who only sees their doctor annually then you are in fact making no difference to your long-term health outcomes.

[BeepBoo]

You can just admit that you can't actually support your argument without distorting the metrics for quality of life, you know.

"Quality of life" is a meaningless term that is different for everyone because it revolves around what things those people value. I'm pretty sure at the start of this conversation I was clear in my discussion about material goods and then sometime in the recent posts you switched to "quality of life" nonsense, which is immaterial to my original position and statements.

Because if you are, as you describe, one of the people who only sees their doctor annually then

What exactly do you go to the doctor for? How often are you going and what the actual fuck are you even having done? The only reason I'm going to the doctor is to get a quick lookover OR for an acute concern. Are you just constantly getting intensive tests, MRI scans, etc? That article says nothing but "if primary care docs were doing less yearly visits, they'd have more time for acute visits." Yeah, they would, but how is that making my preventative care any better? That's still only going in when you think something is wrong, which is exactly what I'm doing now. I just never have anything wrong.

[Elegiac]

"Quality of life" is a meaningless term that is different for everyone because it revolves around what things those people value. I'm pretty sure at the start of this conversation I was clear in my discussion about material goods and then sometime in the recent posts you switched to "quality of life" nonsense, which is immaterial to my original position and statements.

And I already pointed out that discussions of cheapness as it relates to "green solutions" are a function of quality of life and can't be separated from it. Again, you're welcome to climb down and admit you can't actually support your argument.

What exactly do you go to the doctor for? How often are you going and what the actual fuck are you even having done? The only reason I'm going to the doctor is to get a quick lookover OR for an acute concern. Are you just constantly getting intensive tests, MRI scans, etc? That article says nothing but "if primary care docs were doing less yearly visits, they'd have more time for acute visits." Yeah, they would, but how is that making my preventative care any better? You're still only going in when you think something is wrong, which is exactly what I'm doing now. I just never have anything wrong.

Or, as is more likely, you never have anything you deem sufficiently wrong to make it worth the cost of your deductible outside your annual visit.