It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia
The internet: where to every action is opposed an unequal overreaction.
It's close, but I think purely down to a visceral power level Sargeras would get the better of Morgoth. Yes, as Melkor he helped shape the universe but he wasn't alone, since it was the collective musics of the Ainur, Eru, and Melkor's discord that did the making. Morgoth also (while weakened I'll give you) was almost consumed by Ungoliant after refusing to give her the Silmarils.
The main powers behind Morgoth, Sauron, and indeed most of Middle Earth's big villains is more in the mind with corruption and manipulation rather than straight up 'dps'. That physical power was usually (mostly) left down to underlings and allies who were seen as extensions to their power.
I'd probably say Sargeras was in a similar situation in that much of his power was as 'control', but I think that it has been made clear with relation to avatars, and big swords, that he was very much a hands-on combat guy when needed.
Last edited by Lollis; 2022-11-15 at 07:43 AM.
Speciation Is Gradual
I LOVE LICH KING, just to be clear
I don't see him ever win 1v1 against Sauron
LK strongest power is his mindless endless army of undead, army vs army LK will win because Sauron troops of orcs are well known cowards who run away when shit hits the fans, LK undead army don't even understand fear, they will do every single command given until the last bone of their bodies is smashed
This fight is showing LK - who isn't even strongest single fighter in warcraft - against Sauron, who is shown to be strongest 1v1 fighter in his franchise, u putting LK out of his element vs a guy far beyond his power in his own element, what u expect?
Turn it to armies vs armies, and LK will win by outnumbering any enemy army
The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
Thrall
http://youtu.be/x3ejO7Nssj8 7:20+ "Alliance remaining super power", clearly blizz favor horde too much, that they made alliance the super power
Again, I think it'd be pretty close but I still reckon Sargeras just about nabs it. While Tulkas is obviously a very good fighter it isn't clear that he has the capability to strategise and manipulate in the way that either Morgoth or Sargeras could. I think it would certainly be a closer fight than Morgoth vs Sargeras though and could easily go either way.
I think the only Ea character that would 100% defeat Sargeras is Eru. Morgoth, Tulkas, and Manwe would each probably be able to compete somewhat with Sargeras with Manwe being the 'weakest' so to speak, but their fights would most likely sway a little more to his side than to any of theirs. You can probably throw Ulmo in there having a chance too with the whole Water vs Fire thing.
Last edited by Lollis; 2022-11-15 at 01:07 PM.
Speciation Is Gradual
It feels like people are underestimating the Lich King because they don't really understand his fight.
25 of Azeroth's most powerful heroes didn't defeat the Lich King. He was testing us, and when he was done, he unleashed his true power and snuffed out our life.
It took Tirion resurrecting us, and shattering his primary source of power and rendering him helpless in the flow of souls, for us to win that fight.
Sauron is a beast on the battlefield, sure. But he lost to regular men. The Lich King fought a battle against 25 of the mightiest paladins, mages, druids, death knights, warlocks and shamans, each of which has power beyond any fighter on Middle-Earth.
Sauron clearly is mighty, with his resurrections, corruption, control over matter and all that. But that hasn't been shown to have quick combat uses. The Lich King's control over ice, blight and death, does.
They both have a weak point that is an instant defeater. I could see an argument that the Lich King's weapon is the greater vulnerability, as Sauron has the ability to create nigh-indestructible objects. And that if the Lich King claims the ring, he would fall under its sway and be bound to Sauron when he eventually returns (Though I'm not certain the One Ring actually places you under his control. It seems more like it bestows power and control to those it corrupts, and seeks Sauron).
But honestly placing Sauron against the Lich King feels like placing Gandalf against Jaina.
I think that's the correct reading. One ring corrupts weaker souls and turns them to evil, but it does not, by default, hand control to Sauron. Gollum, for instance, was not at any point controlled by Sauron.
Galadriel specifically states that if she had the ring she would rule instead of Sauron, not under Sauron.
If LK had the ring, he would simply be a juiced up LK.
Sauron gets a lot of undeserved cred from LOTR fans, but in a high-magic universe like WoW, he would barely register on the radar as a threat. We quite literally killed a creature far more powerful than Sauron as a dungeon boss (Murmur).
I think you are misunderstanding Galadriel's mirror and her passing of the test.
Galadriel is directly referencing the temptation of the ring, and subsequently talks about how her intentions might start as pure, they'd quickly lead elsewhere:I do not deny that my heart has greatly desired to ask what you offer. For many long years I had pondered what I might do, should the Great Ring come into my hands, and behold! it was brought within my grasp. The evil that was devised long ago works on in many ways, whether Sauron himself stands or falls. Would not that have been a noble deed to set to the credit of his Ring, if I had taken it by force or fear from my guest?
It then goes to describe how her visage changes:And now at last it comes. You will give me the Ring freely! In place of the Dark Lord you will set up a Queen. And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible as the Morning and the Night! Fair as the Sea and the Sun and the Snow upon the Mountain! Dreadful as the Storm and the Lightning! Stronger than the foundations of the earth. All shall love me and despair!
And finally when talking to Sam who says that he wishes she'd take it as she'd 'put things to rights', she simply says:She stood before Frodo seeming now tall beyond measurement, and beautiful beyond enduring, terrible and worshipful
Galadriel, like Gandalf, is fully aware of how corrupting the Ring would be and rejects it absolutely because of that fact.I would. That is how it would begin. But it would not stop with that, alas! We will not speak more of it.
You're severely underestimating Sauron, even if you only consider his Ring-less form in the Lord of the Rings timeline he's still a force of malice and pure will that is simply beyond that of The Lich King.
Speciation Is Gradual
Sauron's disembodiment should make him easier to be absorbed into Frostmourne.
Sauron can call down meteors, passively curse people from very far away, switch between corporeal and incorporeal form, has faster teleportation traveling and some low level reality warping, his basic attacks cause explosive shockwaves and he has many other stuff if we count all the lore asides from the movies, he does not really depend on minions to defeat Arthas.
I dont think that the Lich King can even handle the Balrog who is weaker than Sauron, and it does not matter if they fought at the top of Icecrown Citadel since ice does not affect them in a bad way anyway. THe Witch King would have been a better opponent.
Last edited by Elfezen; 2022-11-18 at 06:43 AM.
Sauron didn't have a corporeal form after a mere human cut his finger off.
yeah this is probably right, I keep thinking of each of them within their own universes and the magic rules of those universes. I suppose then it would matter ho0w they face off against eachother. IE: with all of the power of their respective universes? Or if one faction "invades" the other and is subject to the rules of that universe in doing so.
That's what I was thinking when I put Morgoth and Sargeras next to eachother anyway. Like, I imagine if Sargeras exists in middle earth and is subject to the rules of that universe that he would be on the level of Morgoth and vice versa. I sort of started applying some level of automatic scaling to account for the vast difference in magic/rules systems of the two universes.
What's the source for him calling down meteors?
At any rate, the fact remains that Sauron was beaten several times by mortals in the lore, including times when he had his ring available to him. His latest defeat was at the hands of mere two champions. Lich King has been far more robust and resilient than that in direct combat.
How is any of this relevant? The Lich King and his minions are shown resisting the control of the Old Gods, even going so far as to use Saronite for their armor with no consequences, and actively imprisoning faceless ones they find in Icecrown. Moreover, one of the things we learn in Shadowlands is that Arthas was able to actively fight off the influence of Zovaal - a being who was above even the other members of the Pantheon of Death - while being powered by implements he had created. Clearly the notion of the Lich King being "susceptible to outside influence" is BS.
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Let's not undersell this, Tirion was able to stop the Lich King because of the Ashbringer. This is a weapon which is in a similar category to those like the Dreadwind Harvester - a weapon with drained an area of land the size of a small kingdom of life - and the Fist of Ra-den - a weapon that Lei Shen, a guy who blanket kingdoms in storms, could not wield. It's so blatantly clear that we're comparing a low fantasy and high fantasy setting that it's a bad comparison, even moreso when you consider the feats of either combatant.
Sylvanas didn't even win the popular vote, she was elected by an indirect election of representatives. #NotMyWarchief
Sauron got beat by a dog. Then one time by a man and elf. He has trouble with mortals and slightly magical beings a Demigod like the Lich King would crush him.
The magic scaling of Lord of the Rings is far weaker than Warcraft. The Lich King could create continent sized blizzards, Frostmourne was designed to defeat death titans. Even the feat of shattering Frostmourne is beyond Sauron as the Light itself intervened to break the sword it wasn't Tiron or even Ashbringer but an act of divine intervention.
Also they scale Sauron terribly here because they take from the non canon Shadow of Mordor game nothing in that is canon and nothing should be used. Tolkin did not make him into a super strong evil bad guy he is more of a force of evil corrupting and manipulating until all serve him. When ever faced with a stronger opponent he tends to flee and this nonsense of just making bodies constantly is foolish. If his physical form is destroyed he is basically helpless for a long long time the two times it happens he takes thousands of years off to recover.