Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Stickiler]

- Sylvanas motivations: he should have said: "Massive fuck up on our part, we apologize, next time we will try to put everything in the game and be loyal to how that character was".

- The Jailer: he should have said: "He was a terrible villain, a failure, and we damaged previous well established lore and diminished its importance. We apologize. We will never do something so stupid again".

But both of those things you wrote are wrong, why would he say something that's blatantly untrue

[Le Conceptuel]

But both of those things you wrote are wrong, why would he say something that's blatantly untrue

Do you seriously think that the Jailer or Shadowlands-Sylvanas were in any capacity well-written, consistent characters that were good for the macrocosm of game lore?

[Stickiler]

Do you seriously think that the Jailer or Shadowlands-Sylvanas were in any capacity well-written, consistent characters that were good for the macrocosm of game lore?

Yes? I loved the storyline of BFA-SL.

[Le Conceptuel]

Yes? I loved the storyline of BFA-SL.

What a rarity.

[huth]

No it would not, its just bitter fanfiction. You would have to get rid of a lot of character development for individuals let alone Anduin being missing. Arthas's soul somehow being where it is, and many other things. The people asking for a total ret-con aren't really thinking of all the consequences involved for doing that.

For that matter, it mostly seems to come from people who didn't really pay attention to what the story even was. Sargeras and Arthas weren't even changed. So far, no dead person has managed to just walk out of the Shadowlands, either.

[Darkarath]

For that matter, it mostly seems to come from people who didn't really pay attention to what the story even was. Sargeras and Arthas weren't even changed. So far, no dead person has managed to just walk out of the Shadowlands, either.

Sylvanas and Draka say hi and presumably other Maldraxxus agents.

[Le Conceptuel]

For that matter, it mostly seems to come from people who didn't really pay attention to what the story even was. Sargeras and Arthas weren't even changed. So far, no dead person has managed to just walk out of the Shadowlands, either.

How was Arthas unchanged? The origin of the role of the Lich King was wholly retconned. His relationship with Kel'Thuzad was reduced from an interesting legitimate friendship between two villains to him being strung along for the Jailer. Any threat he once posed has been retroactively reduced to being the Jailer's unknowing proxy. The plot of Frozen Throne has now inexplicably been roped into Zovaal's schemes, granting him retroactive responsibility for a vastly superior story of interpersonal grudges and hatred which tied up very well and was generally consistent and worked within itself. On top of all of that, Arthas' soul is destroyed, changing the ending of his story and his death to benefit the development of another character who has become irrevocably ruined.

Similarly, even taking an extensive dive into the final destination and returning alive is a serious matter not only for all characters involved, but for the setting as a whole. That mystery in itself evaporated. You don't need to have someone walk out of the Shadowlands that previously died for that kind of setting-altering nonsense to emerge. This would have at least been suitable if the characters involved all had a deep and legitimate connection to the afterlife and were changed forever by their excursion, but this simply isn't what happened. Jaina, Baine, Anduin and the like all went there and only the latter was really altered by his experience in any tangible way. The way the story handled such a setting-critical matter as the final, eternal destination of all living things was terrible and didn't do the topic justice.

I definitely paid close attention to what the story was. Applying even the barest scrutiny should make it obvious why it is immensely destructive to the setting as a whole. It retroactively cheapens a faction as iconic as the Scourge with the introduction of Zovaal, whose influence overrides all of their motives and identity with his overarching scheme, exposes Azeroth's afterlife in a way that simply doesn't make sense and cheapens the idea of an afterlife in itself by making it so easy for someone in WoW to just cease to exist due to effectively receiving wounds in the afterlife, and even cheapens the setting's entire cosmology by reducing it to the architecture of the First Ones, a group as bland as they are mysterious and whose role is effectively that of the Titans but Better. In fact, everything in this expansion is designed (potentially deliberately) to mitigate the impact and relevance of older lore by introducing a cooler, better, bigger version of what it was. The Emerald Dream? Inferior version of the Gardens of Life, actually. Scourge? Just channeling Maldraxxus, actually. Lich King? Not a king at all, helpless pawn of Zovaal (which undermines the entire quest of Ner'zhul for independence, also, as well as the threat of the Lich King in itself). Arthas? He should be forgotten, jewel used as fuel for Anduin's ridiculous Death Knight story. Titans? Please, the First Ones came before them and were even cooler and bigger, and the Titans just did what they did on a lesser scale and lied about them because we need to hammer in how stupid the audience is for ever thinking they were cool or did anything or were mysterious. There almost seems to be an effort to actively insult all of the previous lore in introducing this new lore, as though the new writers legitimately cannot accept that there was something iconic or interesting before them and that they aren't the big turning point that makes the story good.

Ironically, for how Sylvanas decides that Arthas should be forgotten at the end of Shadowlands, I think that this fate will not befall any of the older lore. It will be, in some capacity, remembered. Is it soured due to the revelation that its creators were terrible people? Sure, probably. Is it also soured due to the introduction of this new lore? Sure, albeit not as significantly. But nobody will look back on Zovaal as anything other than a one-note villain that nobody really liked or enjoyed. Nobody is going to talk about the mystery of the First Ones, or how great the revelation that Kel'Thuzad was working with the Jailer all this time was. The only revelations that will really be thought of as sensible or memorable are the Nathrezim and Forge of Souls, and that's only insofar as they were revelations in themselves, not how they related to everything else.

[Nymrohd]

Just the idea that Icecrown was essentially built to be a giant engine that drills and connects to Azeroth's world soul so that Zovaal can tap it is crazy. Guess Arthas was not even lucid half the time cause he didn't seem to be aware of it.

As for people not coming back and forth, what? Beyond the players and all the faction leaders and DKs who just walk back and forth, have people not walked around Oribos? Dezco? Khadgar is sightseeing for a future afterlife to retire ffs.

[Le Conceptuel]

Just the idea that Icecrown was essentially built to be a giant engine that drills and connects to Azeroth's world soul so that Zovaal can tap it is crazy. Guess Arthas was not even lucid half the time cause he didn't seem to be aware of it.

As I said, very cool per se, but gets a little stupid when connected with just about anything else.

[Nymrohd]

As I said, very cool per se, but gets a little stupid when connected with just about anything else.

It's not cool, it's only stupid. How did Zovaal know what he was going to find in the forbidden Zereth Mortis that he was forbidden to visit because it was forbidden? We got some 5D magitech engineering genius who divines a structure that can harness energy for a machine he does not know exists in a location he cannot ascertain.

[Le Conceptuel]

It's not cool, it's only stupid. How did Zovaal know what he was going to find in the forbidden Zereth Mortis that he was forbidden to visit because it was forbidden? We got some 5D magitech engineering genius who divines a structure that can harness energy for a machine he does not know exists in a location he cannot ascertain.

That's all true. When I was talking about the Forge of Souls retcon being interesting, I meant solely in the sense that the Forge of Souls has some kind of ulterior role. It's a interesting thing to tie into a future plotline, especially given that it was never really explored in WotLK. Its actual use, conversely, is a good example of the things that make Shadowlands exceedingly stupid as an expansion and storyline.

- - - Updated - - -

Khadgar is sightseeing for a future afterlife to retire ffs.

Forgot about that one, too. Wasn't Stormwind's local bucket-carrier inexplicably in Oribos, too?

[Nymrohd]

That's all true. When I was talking about the Forge of Souls retcon being interesting, I meant solely in the sense that the Forge of Souls has some kind of ulterior role. It's a interesting thing to tie into a future plotline, especially given that it was never really explored in WotLK. Its actual use, conversely, is a good example of the things that make Shadowlands exceedingly stupid as an expansion and storyline.

- - - Updated - - -



Forgot about that one, too. Wasn't Stormwind's local bucket-carrier inexplicably in Oribos, too?

Random grandmas without the magical skills of Khadgar or political connections of Dezco managed to get to Oribos.

[Le Conceptuel]

Random grandmas without the magical skills of Khadgar or political connections of Dezco managed to get to Oribos.

Wholly sensible. Good storytelling. Shadowlands was a good expansion and introduced good things for the story.

[Sondrelk]

Random grandmas without the magical skills of Khadgar or political connections of Dezco managed to get to Oribos.

Said random grandma did get there with the help is Calia though, so not exactly any random stranger from the streets of Stormwind.

[Jaggler]

While yes, SL certainly had faults, people act like it destroyed everything there was.

Yes, it is not great to have "normal" people just walking around Oribos/the Shadowlands, you could argue, that that was something that happened because the veil was broken (it is mended now, so that shouldn't happen anymore. Having like just random civilians there is notgood, though it's fine in cases of faction leaders and soldiers imho (though them fighting alongside us in the various realms would have been preferred instead of them just sitting in Oribos, doing touristy things).

The Jailer influencing the Lich King to build something that also has a use for him is okay in my book, considering his whole deal is Domination and Mind Control.

Yes, the Jailer was a lame villain, but people tend to exaggerate what is/was happening.

[Atticon]

Lol. The only thing you'll ever get from an employee of a multi billion dollar company is "we are listening". They can't go anywhere below that. You're asking for something that can't possibly happen.

Unless that company is Japanese.

[Gurahk]

Unless that company is Japanese.

It's very rare for a japanese company to admit fuck ups as well. There are individual cases here and there, but usually they stick to their guns.

[Atticon]

It's very rare for a japanese company to admit fuck ups as well. There are individual cases here and there, but usually they stick to their guns.

Square Enix, or at least the CBU3 part of it does it routinely concerning FF XIV. First with the botched 1.0 version and reboot, and with the queue and server stability problems of the WoWfugee influx and EW launch. Not to mention apologizing for minor fuckups like tuning, bugs or even stuff like the Larboard/Starboard localization.

[Gurahk]

Square Enix, or at least the CBU3 part of it does it routinely concerning FF XIV. First with the botched 1.0 version and reboot, and with the queue and server stability problems of the WoWfugee influx and EW launch. Not to mention apologizing for minor fuckups like tuning, bugs or even stuff like the Larboard/Starboard localization.

As I said, individual cases, often depending on the people working. If you take a look at other parts of Square Enix then they're just as corporate and scummy as the rest of the bunch.

[Xilurm]

Square Enix, or at least the CBU3 part of it does it routinely concerning FF XIV. First with the botched 1.0 version and reboot, and with the queue and server stability problems of the WoWfugee influx and EW launch. Not to mention apologizing for minor fuckups like tuning, bugs or even stuff like the Larboard/Starboard localization.

That's because YoshiP is on the board of directors. He has way more freedom than just being an employee. Probably wouldn't be the same if he didn't resurrect a dead game and help the company big time.