Do you think that the Defias Brotherhood's actions against Stormwind were justified?

[Varodoc]

Then Vanessa must have been fairly crazy, or a idiot of the highest calibre

I mean, she's a terrorist, so yeah.

Why go around deliberately massacring random families, targeting women and children in the region she literally grew up in, families she personally knew and likely befriended over the years, when she could easily have them work as laborers in the Deadmines, for example?

Because she's a villain, like her father was.

But we live in an age where people feel sorry for serial killers just because they had a sad sob crying childhood, as if they were the only ones with problems in their lives.

So that's why you see the vast majority in this thread defending the Defias. Even though the Story made it clear that they are morally wretched.

Which brings up another point - the Defias for all their flaws at least tolerated other races, including Horde races, in their ranks. They included goblins, tauren, blood elves, Forsaken, ogres, hobgoblins, gnolls, koboids and even murlocs as legitimate members of the Brotherhood. That makes them almost unique among human organizations in the Eastern Kingdoms. And indicated that those from Horde races at least saw their cause as justified.

The Kirin Tor does the same and the SI:7 recruited a goblin, so that's not actually unique.

Vanessa saw Varian as a monarch who "shrugs at our plight".

And yet he went to war in Northrend, risking his own life at the very doorstep of Death, to defend Stormwind and all of Azeroth from servitude to the Lich King. While the Defias cut-throats hid in a shadowy hideout like cowards and harassed peasants.

I don't know if he did anything to fight Deathwing directly during this Cataclysm,

He literally sent the gunship that allowed the heroes, Thrall, and the Aspects to pursue Deathwing to the Maelstrom.

He also personally organized a military invasion of the Twilight Highlands to crush the Twilight's Hammer.

But why would the average farmer in Westfall care about any of these things?

Aside from the fact that the Lich King and Deathwing would kill everyone if they had their way, so Varian was heroic in leading the wars against them?

Do you know what the average Westfall farmer should care about? They should care about the fact that it was Edwin VanCleef and his thugs who ruined Westfall, a fact that Vanessa conveniently forgot to mention, during her melodramatic speech to the peasants.

He declared war on Thrall and the entire Horde in the Undercity,

This is not cited as the reason for the economy collapsing. The war against the Lich King was. All Varian made was an empty declaration which he didn't pursue, since he was fighting side by side with the Horde at Icecrown.

He then led a group of SI:7 agents to Ironforge because HE suddenly decided it was the right thing to do.

Moira was a tyrant, so Yes, it was the right thing to do.

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no, maybe instead of waging war with the Horde, Varian could've just used the resources on attacking the Horde for the people's livelihood instead

The resources were depleted fighting the Lich King, this is the official reason given. The only alternative, letting the Lich King win by not retaliating, was not a good alternative.

[Ardenaso]

The resources were depleted fighting the Lich King, this is the official reason given. The only alternative, letting the Lich King win by not retaliating, was not a good alternative.

I mean after the Lich King, of course that one is important to deal with (just as how Chiang Kai Shek also needed to deal with the Japanese, and Nicholas II needed to deal with World War I)

the resources and logistics that happened in post-Wrath definitely had post-Wrath funding too

[Ealyssa]

Terrorism is never just, period.

[OwenBurton]

Killing dissidents without question every time they pop up because the administration has the might to do so is the most extreme example of tyranny. You're literally ruling through terror of being smashed to bits by lightforged hammers and void tentacles. If your people repeatedly resort to violence to address a certain problem then the sensible course of action is to address this problem, be it corrupted nobles, failing economy, unkept promises or otherwise.

It would have been interesting if the Stormwing Kindgom zones had been designed with some sense and actually had space for the nobility so that the Defias could have focused on pillaging said nobility instead of civilians....Then you could tell a story of the Defias being well intentioned rebels against the nobility and come with a story of the heroes helping enlightened royals both stop the misguided rebels and the corrupt nobles.

Well, I just don't understand why anyone in the Defias would try to target civilians, that seems to be the easiest way to destroy your anti-monarchy revolutionary movement. None of the quests made it clear why Edwin and Vanessa harmed civilians, if they did indeed do so; it was not the starving farmers of Westfall that destroyed their lives, they were literally people with the same shared marginalized backgrounds and cause. If the Defias was willing to welcome and train new members from nearly all of the Horde races, it seems bizarre and confusing that they would use violence against their own kin and brethen of all people, especially as many Defias members were likely recruited from Westfall in the first place. They even hired that ogre mage Glubtok and that goblin Helix Gearbreaker to guard their base in the Deadmines.

People also tend to overlook that Vanessa's father Edwin was close friends with Matthias Shaw, another reason why Shaw might have shown leniency towards Vanessa in Dalaran; Shaw was the one who literally trained him to become a rogue in the first place, so it's also partly his fault that he was so successful later. I wouldn't be surprised if Shaw was quietly impressed by how skilled a rogue his childhood friend's only daughter has become over the years as he kept tabs on her for Anduin and SI:7.

"Led by Edwin VanCleef, the Stonemason's Guild was composed of the most skilled builders among men. The Stonemasons helped to rebuild the broken city of Stormwind that was razed by the orcs during the First War. VanCleef and his tradesmen were peerless builders and their work and artistry was evident in the edifices of the Cathedral of Light and Stormwind Keep itself.

However, the nobles of Stormwind ran up a huge debt by expanding the kingdom's military presence through Elwynn and into Stranglethorn. The massive debt crippled the kingdom's economy and stripped VanCleef and his Stonemasons of their promised rewards. After spending years toiling to rebuild the glorious city, the Stonemasons were left broke, forgotten by the city's corrupt officials."

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Shaw%27s_Report

Yes, he became a violent radical later, committing reprehensible acts against Stormwind. But Edwin was also a very skilled artisan who was responsible in part for the construction of both Stormwind Keep and the Cathedral of Light itself. Perhaps neither would exist today if not for his contributions. The Defias is indeed his legacy, but so too is Varian's marble castle and the largest cathedral in the Eastern Kingdoms.

And even Shaw himself blames the Stormwind nobles for expanding to Elwynn and Stranglethorn, it was again their greed and powerlust that seemed to instigate the whole thing. I can see them trying to expand their influence even without Onyxia in the shadows. And although this was from the RPG, this does provide other insight into what Blizzard originally intended Edwin's motives to look like:

"The reconstruction of Stormwind was an arduous task, but with such a genius as VanCleef masterminding the operation, the project was completed smoothly and in less than ten years.

After the reconstruction, however, the nobles paid the Stonemasons much less than they expected. Some of the more senior of the Stonemasons, including VanCleef, were offered governmental jobs if they’d just be quiet and play along. However, Edwin VanCleef was not willing to betray his workmen. He spat on the floor and walked out of the halls he'd built, vowing that he'd make the city pay one way or another. Shortly afterward, at VanCleef's urging, workers rioted in Stormwind City. Several people died,[15] and VanCleef with other artisans were the first to be cast out of the city gates."

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Edw..._and_Stormwind

And finally, Jaina herself mentioned the Defias to Varian, in the very same pre-Cataclysm novel, when Varian immediately blamed Thrall for the Sentinels' deaths (the point being that the Defias are still at the end of the day legally Stormwind citizens, hence why some were sent to the Stockades, they are still Varian's responsibility).

"The Defias Brotherhood are humans," Jaina said, very quietly. "Should you be held responsible for their actions?"

Varian jerked as if she had struck him. "You dare recall that to me," he growled softly.

"I do. Someone has to recall you to yourself." She did not meet the anger of Lo'Gosh, the part of Varian that was cold and swift and violent, with anger of her own. She met it with the practicality that had saved her - and others - time and time again." (pg. 62)

[Ameonna]

On the contrary, Stormwind under King Varian Canonically led the Alliance to victory in the apocalyptic war against the Lich King. But since the war proved very costly, many Stormwind citizens were evicted from their homes and took refuge in the lawless and desperate Westfall.

You can't blame Varian for this. The Lich King was going to kill everyone on Azeroth, war was inevitable, a war was going to be fought no matter what, Varian was the defensive side. And the war was going to be costly, simply because the Lich King's army was virtually infinite, replenishing itself with every battle. The war against the undead was a war of attrition and they tend to be very costly.

Accusing Varian of being a "bad" king is disingenuous, don't you think? The Lich King was trying to conquer the entire world, Varian actually led the Alliance to victory against him and helped save the world. The war resulted in mass poverty and the economy being shattered but it wasn't a war Varian started in the first place.

Those refugees had their reasons for despising Varian; but we, as irl people with meta knowledge of the events, can objectively understand that Varian did not make any mistakes. It was not a mistake to oppose Arthas in a costly, yet necessary, war.

And thats why the world of warcraft a good and credible story sometimes, you talk like a scenarist would telling me the big picture with the spectrum of the player/person who know the lore behind all of this, but for the people here, for the ppl who lost their home because of the war they do think he is a bad king, it is exactly how it is for real, a lot of victories if they make your people live in misery can make you deposed it happenned in real History. I dont mean that Varian was bad, in the overall picture, but for the people of westfall he is bad king that need to be deposed and i think you cant really blame them on this.

I mean, she's a terrorist, so yeah.

I prefer not to even react to this statement, its just so narrowed...you do know there is act of terrorism agaisnt invaders that are called terrorism even if they are legit?

[Varodoc]

And thats why the world of warcraft a good and credible story sometimes, you talk like a scenarist would telling me the big picture with the spectrum of the player/person who know the lore behind all of this, but for the people here, for the ppl who lost their home

Nothing of what I talked about would be classified intel in-universe. People knew that the Lich King was coming because the war literally starts with the Scourge besieging the capital and people knew that the Lich King was a fearsome enemy who had already destroyed the northern kingdoms (Lordaeron, Dalaran, and Quel'Thalas), so a war against him would have been costly, yet necessary (necessary to save Azeroth, necessary to avenge the attack on the capital at the start of the war). These are all basic notions that even an uncultured peasant should know about in-universe.

and i think you cant really blame them on this.

I didn't blame them.

I blame Vanessa for conveniently and hypocritically leaving out the part where Varian didn't mishandle the economy for petty trivial reasons, but because the war to save Azeroth against an Undead Demigod proved to be very costly in terms of manpower and resources. Massive strongholds had to be established at key points throughoutNorthrend and vast armies were needed to march on Icecrown. Ofc this took a huge toll on the Stormwind economy but they were necessary acts, otherwise Stormwind would have suffered the same grim fate as Lordaeron. And again, this is not classified intel in-universe, even peasants would know that the Lich King had the serious power to annihilate entire kingdom. He did that to Lordaeron and Quel'Thalas, the two greatest kingdoms of the north. Varian was fighting a just war to prevent Stormwind from suffering the same fate, but Vanessa naturally left that part out to paint Varian as this selfish and foolish king who didn't care about the people.

Varian cared so little about the people that he was leading the vanguard into Icecrown itself and actively risking his life to protect his people from the Scourge. I blame Vanessa not only for lying to the peasants and painting only half the picture, but also for lying about Varian and painting him as a selfish king, when that couldn't be farther from the truth. The man literally sacrificed his life to cover the escape of his people, a single act that makes him more heroic than the Defias could ever hope to be.

And you say that Varian was a "bad king" because many in Westfall were turned by lies against him, yet you ignore that many in Westfall were also loyal to him, such as the civilians of Sentinel's Hill (a walled town and the regional centre of Westfall) and the vast majority of the people of the capital (they literally built a huge park and monument to honour him).

I prefer not to even react to this statement, its just so narrowed...you do know there is act of terrorism agaisnt invaders that are called terrorism even if they are legit?

Explain to me how it is "narrowed" to dismiss any excuse for a terrorist. They are terrorists, they target civilians with the sole purpose of spreading terror. I don't know why nowadays some fringes of the internet feel the need to sympathize with terrorists and with serial killers just because they had a sad sob backstory. As if terrorists were the only people who were wronged in their lives. I was also wronged many times in my life and yet I didn't turn out to be a terrorist, and the same is true for everyone else who didn't turn out to be a terrorist (so, the vast majority of the population).

Just because the Defias were wronged by the Monarchy doesn't justify them turning into terrorists. Look at the draenei, they literally got genocided by the orcs (which I would say is much worse than not getting paid) and yet you don't see them intentionally targeting civilian centres and harassing civilians.

But I forgot that it's 2022 and we need to feel sorry for the villains just because they had a sad sob "we weren't paid!!!" backstory.

you do know there is act of terrorism agaisnt invaders that are called terrorism even if they are legit?

The Defias weren't "invaded" by anyone, if anything they were the attackers. Instigating a massive armed riot at the heart of the capital with the explicit purpose of overthrowing the rightful King.

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I mean after the Lich King, of course that one is important to deal with (just as how Chiang Kai Shek also needed to deal with the Japanese, and Nicholas II needed to deal with World War I)

the resources and logistics that happened in post-Wrath definitely had post-Wrath funding too

After the Lich King, Deathwing, a literal apocalyptic flying cataclysm, began his return to the world by devastating much of the capital city, and the Horde armies led by the Warchief himself were massing at the Ashenvale borders.

I think that Varian had more important issues to deal with than the economy.

[Florena]

They have sympathetic motivations but their actual actions are not justified.

I wouldn't look for consistency either with the economics. The harsh economic turn leading to Defias 2.0 is only every really brought up in Westfall to set them up and then never addressed again. War after devestating war happens yet there's never a tangible cost to the war even if lip service is paid to the losses. There isn't really a consistent bigger picture here.

[Ealyssa]

you do know there is act of terrorism agaisnt invaders that are called terrorism even if they are legit?

That's just... not true at all.
Once you attack civilian, you are a terrorist. Period.

Attacking enemy forces is ok, attacking civilian is not. The use of violence against civilian for politican gain is the actual textbook definition of terrorism.
And that's precisely what the defias are into.

[Varodoc]

Well, I just don't understand why anyone in the Defias would try to target civilians, that seems to be the easiest way to destroy your anti-monarchy revolutionary movement. None of the quests made it clear why Edwin and Vanessa harmed civilians, if they did indeed do so

They 100% targeted innocent civilians in what would be classified today as "terrorist acts".

To begin with, the Stonemasons incited a violent armed riot in the capital. We can assume that some innocent bystanders were harmed or even killed by the Stonemasons mob, just like Queen Tiffin herself.

Secondly, the Defias built harvest golems, which are basically death robots meant to scare away any farmer that could try to resettle the farms of Westfall and heal the land. As the sole purpose of these golems is to scare away and harass farmers, the Defias clearly had no problem harming innocent people who were just trying to heal the land.

Thirdly, VanCleef devised that whole plan to besiege the capital with a massive orc warship. Civilian casualties would have been inevitable, especially since, due to Onyxia's manipulations (coincidentally she was allied with the Defias ), the capital was largely undefended as the armies were sent to distant battlefields. So, if the Defias actually succeeded in bringing their massive orc warship to Stormwind and laying siege to the capital, they would be met with little resistance from the army, and what do you think would happen to many civlians?

Fourthly, Vanessa VanCleef had the Furlbrows family assassinated. Given how this was the family that literally raised her, gave her a home, fed her, protected her, loved her for years... it's very fucked up to have them assassinated. Especially when you paint yourself as a "freedom fighter" who is "defending the downtrodden against the unjust Monarchy". She defended the downtrodden so much that she 1) had her innocent civilian family assassinated 2) launched a massive assault of Sentinel's Hill, a town and thus a civilian target 3) continued her father's scheme to besiege the capital with a massive orc warship.

[Jastall]

Frankly, in spite of my sarcastic comment, Alleria is the most tolerable of her brood—between the blithering idiocy that went into Sylvanas' development and Vereesa's lack thereof, she's definitely a happy middle. Conversely, any tolerance I have for her would rapidly evaporate if she decided to shove the ridiculous Le Epic Kosmos!!! thread down the throat of a narrative that had the potential to be remotely interesting or grounded. Alleria's fine and Turalyon I actively look forward to, but if ever I have to hear "le VOID will stop u, typical and grounded violent uprising!!!!!" over a Defias plot, my brain will turn to slop.

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I'd hope not. As aforementioned, I tolerate Alleria, and Turalyon I actively hope will stick around to give some flavor to the most palpably bland faction in WoW.

Agreed, she's easily the least awful of the Windrunner sisters, as faint a praise as that may be. So long as her oh so enigmatic powers end up being more of a source of tension than an OP solver of every problem then I'm not going to object to seeing more of her.

That mindset is going to change very quickly if she develops Sylvanas/BFA Jaina/Knaack Malf syndrome and turns into the almighty destroyer of worlds with powers far above what an NPC should possess.

And having a dark Alliance plotline would be supremely dumb. The faction needs some flavor injected into it, it most definitely does not need to be villain batted so that Saint Anduin can come save it from being interesting and go back to the complete status quo.

[Le Conceptuel]

Agreed, she's easily the least awful of the Windrunner sisters, as faint a praise as that may be. So long as her oh so enigmatic powers end up being more of a source of tension than an OP solver of every problem then I'm not going to object to seeing more of her.

That mindset is going to change very quickly if she develops Sylvanas/BFA Jaina/Knaack Malf syndrome and turns into the almighty destroyer of worlds with powers far above what an NPC should possess.

And having a dark Alliance plotline would be supremely dumb. The faction needs some flavor injected into it, it most definitely does not need to be villain batted so that Saint Anduin can come save it from being interesting and go back to the complete status quo.

Exactly my feelings on all counts. Ironically, what makes Alleria potentially tolerable is the opposite of what Varodoc was saying—thus far, there has at least been some effort spent on making Alleria have some trouble keeping her rather unstable power under control, which precludes her just popping in to use her super-duper kewl enigmatic powah to show how much more enlightened and powerful she is than everything else. Alleria not knowing everything about the Void or having the capacity to control it easily keeps some checks on her.

Similarly, I do hope the Alliance goes in a darker direction, but doesn't get the villain bat. What I'm hoping is that they're turned into a more complex and imperialistic force. I'd rather Turalyon be a harsher but nevertheless ultimately heroic leader instead of reduced to a villain. My hope for him is that he represents a fundamental shift in the characterization of the Alliance as a faction.

[Jastall]

Exactly my feelings on all counts. Ironically, what makes Alleria potentially tolerable is the opposite of what Varodoc was saying—thus far, there has at least been some effort spent on making Alleria have some trouble keeping her rather unstable power under control, which precludes her just popping in to use her super-duper kewl enigmatic powah to show how much more enlightened and powerful she is than everything else. Alleria not knowing everything about the Void or having the capacity to control it easily keeps some checks on her.

Similarly, I do hope the Alliance goes in a darker direction, but doesn't get the villain bat. What I'm hoping is that they're turned into a more complex and imperialistic force. I'd rather Turalyon be a harsher but nevertheless ultimately heroic leader instead of reduced to a villain. My hope for him is that he represents a fundamental shift in the characterization of the Alliance as a faction.

The events at the Sunwell are a good example of this. That she can make it react so much speaks volumes of how much void juju she has... and that's what caused the problem because she can't properly control the implications of it. This is good. If you want to make a character OP, give said power clear drawbacks so that tension is maintained and you're not wondering why they don't solve every problem by just being on the scene and going "it's voidin' time" and voiding every problem in the room.

By contrast Sylvanas was made into a nigh on invincible superwoman with new powers as the plot demanded but with no drawbacks making one wonders why she didn't just smoke-fly into Stormwind and murder every character in the Alliance. Same with Jaina and why she didn't turn Orgrimmar into a glacier with a flick of her wrists and bomb Thunder Bluff from orbit with her ship.

I'd like to see the Alliance try and use the truce for their own ends, reclaiming lands the Horde took and going "but what about the truce? you wouldn't want to react too strongly!" when said Horde objects. There's fodder for decent drama there, and having the Horde give some but refuse other claims would keep a balance. Horde shouldn't become a blanket to be walked over either. That would pave the way for Gilneas's reclamation for example.



Anyway we're veering off-topic. I doubt Defias are going to be relevant sometime soon. Hell Blizzard hasn't even updated Westfall in all those years and I believe Sentinel Hill is still on fire. They sure build sturdy over there.

[OwenBurton]

They 100% targeted innocent civilians in what would be classified today as "terrorist acts".

Fourthly, Vanessa VanCleef had the Furlbrows family assassinated. Given how this was the family that literally raised her, gave her a home, fed her, protected her, loved her for years... Especially when you paint yourself as a "freedom fighter" who is "defending the downtrodden against the unjust Monarchy". She defended the downtrodden so much that she 1) had her innocent civilian family assassinated 2) launched a massive assault of Sentinel's Hill, a town and thus a civilian target 3) continued her father's scheme to besiege the capital with a massive orc warship.

Vanessa was, of course, not a "hero" per se. But neither was she quite an entirely heartless monster. What she did to the Furlbrows was neither right nor excusable. And yet, she did help the homeless people in Westfall during her time there also, perhaps for years. She was traumatized as a young girl when witnessing mercenaries killing her father, and was near death as she stumbled into the home of a random Westfall family. And then she like all the other Westfall civilians suffered tremendously from frequent famine and hardship, especially after the Cataclysm struck.

About four years ago, in the dead of night, a little girl walked right into our farmhouse and collapsed on the floor. Nobody had a clue as to her identity. The poor little thing had no recollection of who she was or where she came from - truly a lost soul. Soon after, we adopted the little girl and named her Hope - for that is what she represented. She is now a young lady, caring for the destitute and homeless of Westfall. Take my Westfall stew to her at Sentinel Hill, south of here.

She also wanted to directly speak to and connect with the people one last time, she didn't have to, as her plans were nearly complete, but she chose to do so, perhaps because she still saw them as "her people".

Shadowy Figure says: Judgment day is soon upon us, Helix.
Shadowy Figure says: Call for the people. I wish to speak to them one last time before the dawning.
Helix Gearbreaker says: Moonbrook, mistress?
Shadowy Figure says: Aye. Tonight.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Secrets_of_the_Tower

And this is what Vanessa, as Hope, had to say about the Furlbrows and life in Westfall, as she instructs the Alliance adventurer to feed the homeless people around Sentinel Hill using her mother's stew:

Yes, I heard about the Furlbrow murders. It is very tragic, but such tragedy is a way of life in Westfall. There are many people here who simply no longer have the means or inclination to keep themselves fed. They have given up hope. Do you understand what it means to be left so hopeless as to stop caring about life? We must work together to show them that there is hope. That with the dawning day a better life comes. Take my mother's Westfall stew and help feed the homeless around Sentinel Hill. Have you fed the homeless? You have a kind heart, <name>. You have done a good thing, today, and that act will reflect back upon you when judgment day comes.

I mean, if some people today are still arguing that the Bombing of Theramore, which wiped out an entire settlement, was "kind of" justified, I don't think it's too shocking that some players have a nuanced view of the Defias also. Sentinel Hill was just as much a military outpost and base as Theramore was, from a certain strategic perspective, and most of the civilians had no homes left in any case.

That was the entire point of the Westfall questline, if you might recall, the vast majority of the NPCs you encounter literally were homeless beggars and transients who had given up on life and work, with nowhere to live, and nearly nothing left to eat. The Stormwind guards' presence there certainly didn't seem to greatly improve their situation during the time there, if anything, they likely depleted more of their region's extremely limited resources. And even during her most heinous and controversial act (burning down Sentinel Hill), she still ultimately spared the player as well as all of the Stormwind guards, whom she sapped and disabled as she and her followers made their escape. Not exactly what everyone would label an unforgivable atrocity.

And from lots of YouTube comments on Defias Brotherhood videos, lots of them seem to be pretty supportive of them actually.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGChOIUC3JI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEi4a2gfcrA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V90eSDlBx1U

One highly upvoted comment stated:

"If they had won, they would have been the heroes who overthrew an injust king and his nobles. History is written by the winner."

Personally, I wish we had a novel or short story about the Defias, who have been part of the game since its beginning, exploring in-depth the events which led to their emergence from THEIR detailed perspective, such as exactly how Edwin formed the Brotherhood after fleeing from Stormwind, and what kind of difficult experiences Vanessa had growing up in Westfall, that would have been really interesting, and show a more "provocative" and realistic side of the Alliance that most people might not be so familiar with thus far.

[Varodoc]

Vanessa was, of course, not a "hero" per se. But neither was she quite an entirely heartless monster. What she did to the Furlbrows was neither right nor excusable. And yet, she did help the homeless people in Westfall during her time there also, perhaps for years

Yeah, to trick people. It was all to keep up appearances. She later had no problems carrying out her father's plan to see Stormwind burn, which should tell you everything you need to know about her and what she thinks about civilian losses.

when witnessing mercenaries killing her father,

During a civil war that her terrorist father ignited btw.

And then she like all the other Westfall civilians suffered tremendously from frequent famine and hardship

It's almost like Westfall wouldn't be in such a shit state if the Defias hadn't spent years preventing farmers from resettling the land by sending harvest golems to patrol the abandoned fields.

Your excuses will never change the fact: Westfall is in that shit state solely and exclusively because of Edwin VanCleef and his band of terrorists. The Stormwind Monarchy didn't burn the crops, salt the earth, and forcefully prevent the farmers from resettling.

Which makes Vanessa a hypocrite and a liar ofc, since she blames the Stormwind Monarchy for the poor state of Westfall, when in reality it was all her father's fault.

And this is what Vanessa, as Hope, had to say about the Furlbrows and life in Westfall, as she instructs the Alliance adventurer to feed the homeless people around Sentinel Hill using her mother's stew:

Still done just to keep up appearances. Later on, she invades Sentinel's Hill and burns it, realistically many of those poor homeless people she fed would have been caught in the fires SHE started.

if some people today are still arguing that the Bombing of Theramore

Irrelevant, that's a mistake as well. Anyone who is still arguing about the Bombing of Theramore just doesn't want to accept that Blizzard condemned Garrosh as a war criminal guilty of genocide in the War Crimes novel. That was the end of it.

People also argue that the Earth is flat, it doesn't mean that there's any credence or validity in their (false) beliefs.

think it's too shocking that some players have a nuanced view of the Defias also

You can have a nuanced view of their motivations. No one here denied that the Stormwind House of Nobles was corrupt and that the Defias were wronged by them.

But their actions and their modus operandi are objectively and factually evil and portrayed as villainous, I already explained why several times. That is not arguable. And it is also not arguable that, just because they were wronged, they didn't have the right to resort to terrorism.

Sentinel Hill was just as much a military outpost and base as Theramore was, from a certain strategic perspective, and most of the civilians had no homes left in any case.

1) Garrosh didn't care about civlian casualties, while Vanessa claims to fight for the downtrodden, so it's extremely hypocritical for her to then set fire to the largest civlian centre in the region, made up of a vast majority of civlians that she claims to fight for.

At least Garrosh is honest and straightforward. Vanessa, like all terrorists, pretends to be a champion of the people, then has no problem harming or even killing the people.

2) Maybe those people would find more hospitality and more homes in Westfall if the Defias would finally deactivate the harvest golems and let them settle all those abandoned farms, and if they also withdrew their gang terrorists from Moonbrok and finally let the Stormwind Army resettle and rebuild the town.

The Stormwind guards' presence there certainly didn't seem to greatly improve their situation during the time there

This is wrong. The Stormwind army sent to Westfall in Cataclysm made huge developments in the construction of Sentinel's Hill, which was just some shabby tower in Classic, but became a walled town in Cataclysm. Since the Defias (surprise surprise) were preventing Stormwind to resettle Moonbrook (the former regional centre) for years, Sentinel's Hill finally gave Westfall a centre of power it needed. The Stormwind army in, like, a few months did more beneficial things for Westfall than the Defias did in a decade.

And might I remind you that the main threat to the region in Cataclysm, the large-scale gnoll invasion, was instigated once again by the Defias?

They are literally behind every major issue affecting Westfall in WoW and yet you keep blaming Stormwind Monarchy. But the Story disagrees with you and paints a very different picture of the reality of the zone.

she still ultimately spared the player as well as all of the Stormwind guards, whom she sapped and disabled as she and her followers made their escape

As she and her followers began the burning of Sentinel's Hill alongside a gnoll horde, you mean? The sheer white-washing of terrorists...

YouTube

Irrelevant, Youtube comments are always melodramatic and sentimental and sympathize with any villain.

If they had won

They would have burned Stormwind to the ground.

This Youtube user completely and utterly misunderstood the whole story here as well as the fact that the Defias are terrorists.

The Defias are not portrayed as "evil" because "history is written by the winners". They are portrayed as "evil", because they are evil villains. They were already portrayed as villains in Classic, when the civil war was still unresolved and the Defias were actually in a strong position against the weakened and fragile Stormwind Monarchy.

[OwenBurton]

They have sympathetic motivations but their actual actions are not justified.

I wouldn't look for consistency either with the economics. The harsh economic turn leading to Defias 2.0 is only every really brought up in Westfall to set them up and then never addressed again. War after devestating war happens yet there's never a tangible cost to the war even if lip service is paid to the losses. There isn't really a consistent bigger picture here.

But people are downplaying or ignoring just how horrible and uninhabitable the conditions in Westfall after the Cataclysm was, they would likely spur even stable and reasonable individuals to breaking point fairly quickly. At least half the population seemed to lack employment, shelter and adequate food and water. Go through the Cataclysm quests for the region, from the very beginning. During the first breadcrumb quest, a homeless Westfall NPC even specifically stated it was in fact WORSE than when Edwin's Defias ran rampant during Classic Warcraft. Perhaps not Varian's fault per se, he of course had nothing to do with Deathwing returning, but it WAS his personal responsibility as regent over the Kingdom of Stormwind.

This was what several homeless people mentioned during the Hero's Call quest. And many of the people in Westfall weren't natives there either, they had migrated there from other Alliance territories because of the Cataclysm's devastating effects. You might also recall the human refugees in Velen's short story who traveled all the way to the Exodar to seek his guidance and wisdom.

Transient says:What's happened to us? We're in worse shape now than when the Defias ran amok!
West Plains Drifter says: Yep. That King Varian is good for nothin'.
Transient says: Let's get out of here before they try and pin this on us.
West Plains Drifter says: Good call.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Her...Call:_Westfall!

Westfall is in that state solely and exclusively because of Edwin VanCleef and his band of terrorists. The Stormwind Monarchy didn't burn the crops, salt the earth, and forcefully prevent the farmers from resettling.

Which makes Vanessa a hypocrite and a liar ofc, since she blames the Stormwind Monarchy for the poor state of Westfall, when in reality it was all her father's fault.

That is still very debatable. While I have no problems with labeling what Edwin's Defias became as an fringe group that did far more harm than good, I think Vanessa's Brotherhood was not "exactly" the same. And I thought it was a combination of different factors that led to the suffering of Westfall's people, I honestly assumed the Cataclysm was mostly responsible. There was a considerable period of time, two expansions at least, after which Edwin was killed and Vanessa was still a young girl being raised by that Westfall family, and things do NOT seem to have improved there under Varian's reign even after the original Defias was dismantled. In fact, as some NPCs mentioned, things became even worse.

My point is, Varian could have easily done so many things to try to help Westfall's people better after the Cataclysm. He was not responsible for Deathwing's return to Azeroth from Deepholm, but he WAS in fact responsible for the collective welfare of his ordinary people in ALL the lands under Stormwind's control, including the disadvantaged citizens of Westfall.

He could have asked the night elves, for example, or their Cenarion Circle, to send teams of druids to Westfall to try to heal the land and see what could be done, or asked Velen to send draenei shaman to work with the elements there. He could have asked the dwarves and gnomes to use their technologies to help with irrigation or food production in the region. Perhaps he could have asked Dalaran or Stormwind's mages to work on some kind of arcane way to alleviate their hardships, perhaps conjure refreshments en masse or something. Perhaps he could have even asked Genn for advice on how a relatively isolated region with limited resources might be able to sustain itself under harsh conditions. But as far as we know, he did none of that.

Instead, his only recourse was, "Wow, this young girl who was Edwin's daughter is just as evil as her dad, let's kill her the same way we kill him! That will solve all our problems at once!" Yes, Vanessa was "stopped", King Varian won (yet again), Stormwind Keep was saved, but that did NOT seem to benefit any of Westfall's residents significantly, nor did it give them new homes and livelihoods by any means.

P.S. And don't forget, the Varian of that expansion, when the Defias resurged, was NOT the "mature and balanced, have patience, Tyrande" leader Varian of Mists of Pandaria. He was still influenced by Lo'Gosh, reckless and emotional, and angrily clashed with Anduin, Jaina, Malfurion, and lots of other moderate leaders lots of times. I can see him indeed "shrugging" and reasoning, "Ah, well, it's too bad those people in that rural area are starving, but as King, I need to mostly focus my resources on fighting the monstrous Horde (Garrosh and Sylvanas)."

[Le Conceptuel]

Instead, his only recourse was, "Wow, this young girl who was Edwin's daughter is just as evil as her dad, let's kill her the same way we kill him! That will solve all our problems at once!" Yes, Vanessa was "stopped", King Varian won (yet again), Stormwind Keep was saved, but that did NOT seem to benefit any of Westfall's residents significantly, nor did it give them new homes and livelihoods by any means.

This bit is a pivot, but I am glad that we do have Vanessa on the backburner for later. I'd say she's a particularly interesting villain and is one of the few that haven't been ruined in some irrevocable capacity. In some ways, she's very much the kind of nuanced villain that Sylvanas failed to be in Shadowlands, something which is complemented by the narrative not needing to bend over to justify her actions and excuse her. She is by all means very sympathetic and an ideologue with very good points, but is simultaneously a terrorist and seems to have some legitimate and personal ambition or hunger for power as evidenced by her actions in Legion—these traits make for an interesting villain because it's effectively the profile of a real-world revolutionary dictator.

This lends some credence, I think, to the idea that a villain doesn't need convoluted motives or a loss of agency to remain sympathetic, and to the idea that there is something to be gained from grounded storytelling. Hopefully, with a less "cosmic" direction, the narrative will become more habitable for nuanced villains like Vanessa VanCleef.

- - - Updated - - -

But people are downplaying or ignoring just how horrible and uninhabitable the conditions in Westfall after the Cataclysm was, they would likely spur even stable and reasonable individuals to breaking point fairly quickly.

Their objectives are certainly earnest and justifiable. The issue is that revolutionaries of all stripes have a particular habit of going pretty quickly from the realm of sympathy and sensibility to the realm of lunacy and terrorism very quickly. No matter the ideology they practice, it's usually a quick transition.

- - - Updated - - -

You can have a nuanced view of their motivations. No one here denied that the Stormwind House of Nobles was corrupt and that the Defias were wronged by them.

You know, even when you actually make good points, you contradict your other sentiments. "Ends justify the means" seems to be applicable only insofar as it aligns, I suppose.

[Varodoc]

That is still very debatable.

No, it's not. Literally the introductory quest of Westfall already paints the Defias as the culprits behind the desolate state of Westfall, as they used harvest golems to drive away the good people that were trying to resettle the land:

Look at what has happened to this place! These lands were once occupied by good farm folk. But the damned thieves have driven them all off. Not me, though! But it seems some Harvest Watchers have taken over the fields.

If you're up for the work, I'd like you to go out and kill twenty of them. Come back when you're done for your pay. If you finish up with the ones in my field, clear them from the neighboring fields as well.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/The_Killing_Fields

The Comic Dark Riders goes in more detail:

The Defias Brotherhood has been burning fields and salting the earth, this is where the militia stages its defence of the farmlands.

It is not a coincidence that many Defias NPCs were Fire Mages.


What I said is not debatable at all. The Defias were literally attacking the farmlands to ruin them and prevent their resettlement by actual good folk. Ofc Westfall turned into a desolate shithole when the terrorists were driving away all the good and honest and hard-working folk. The same folk you (falsely) claim they were defending from the evil and unjust Monarchy.

I think Vanessa's Brotherhood was not "exactly" the same.

Headcanon disproven by the Story portrayal. In Cataclysm, Vanessa and the Defias continued the same tactics of their predecessors and continued their same nefarious schemes.

I honestly assumed the Cataclysm was mostly responsible

All the Cataclysm did was cause a giant crater to erupt, the crater partially consumed a farm that was taken over by the Defias. So, if anything, Deathwing did a favour to Westfall by causing the earth to swallow some terrorists.

There was a considerable period of time, two expansions at least, after which Edwin was killed and Vanessa was still a young girl being raised by that Westfall family, and things do NOT seem to have improved there under Varian's reign even after the original Defias was dismantled. In fact, as some NPCs mentioned, things became even worse.

1) It's hard to restore a land that suffered under terrorist yoke for years;

2) Varian had more pressing matters to attend to in Northrend. Unfortunately, the end of the living world at Icecrown was more important than Westfall.

He could have asked the night elves, for example, or their Cenarion Circle, to send teams of druids to Westfall to try to heal the land and see what could be done

Those druids were already taking care of the Western Plaguelands + they were needed to defend the Night elven lands from the Horde and the elementals.

or asked Velen to send draenei shaman to work with the elements there.

In fact, a veteran draenei shaman was helping the Stormwind Army in Westfall. His specific task was studying the Elemental devastation of Westfall:

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Thoralius_the_Wise

He could have asked the dwarves and gnomes to use their technologies to help with irrigation or food production in the region

The dwarves were on the brink of civil war and the Cataclysm devastated Khaz Modan even more than Stormwind, with the Loch Modan being drained of its waters and Wetlands being submerged. The gnomes had their own issues to deal with in Gnomeregan as their reclamation of the city was still ongoing in Cataclysm.

Perhaps he could have asked Dalaran or Stormwind's mages to work on some kind of arcane way to alleviate their hardships, perhaps conjure refreshments en masse or something.

Why didn't Garrosh just ask the blood elves to conjure fresh water for his people instead of opening hostilities and marching on Ashenvale?

Perhaps he could have even asked Genn for advice on how a relatively isolated region with limited resources might be able to sustain itself under harsh conditions

Stormwind most definitely doesn't need the advice from Gilneas to understand how to thrive isolated. Stormwind was the most isolated nation in the Eastern Kingdoms before the First War while Gilneas comparatively was isolated for a much shorter period of time.

It's actually a very important plot point, that Stormwind was the most isolated kingdom and was proud of it, because it was their source of pride, but also their downfall, as they believed they didn't need the rest of the world to defeat the orcs.

Instead, his only recourse was, "Wow, this young girl who was Edwin's daughter is just as evil as her dad, let's kill her the same way we kill him! That will solve all our problems at once!

Actually I'm pretty sure he didn't give a shit about Vanessa, it was the Sentinel's Hill general who gave the quest to kill her, and it DID solve the problem. The Defias threat is destroyed, the civil war is ended, Westfall is reunited under Stormwind control.

but that did NOT seem to benefit any of Westfall's residents significantly, nor did it give them new homes and livelihoods by any means.

Baseless speculation.

We'll see if/when Blizzard updates the old world.

but as King, I need to mostly focus my resources on fighting the monstrous Horde

He was actually devoting his resources to organizing a large-scale invasion of the Twilight's Highlands to destroy the Twilight's Hammer, but sure.

[OwenBurton]

No, it's not. Literally the introductory quest of Westfall already paints the Defias as the culprits behind the desolate state of Westfall, as they used harvest golems to drive away the good people that were trying to resettle the land:


https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/The_Killing_Fields

No, you're making a fairly honest mistake, that was from the original Defias under Edwin, in Classic World of Warcraft, not the Cataclysm one necessarily. Is it not at all possible that Vanessa's motives were more altruistic and for the people than that of her late father?

And what makes me uncomfortable is that the House of Nobles seems to have faced NO consequences whatsoever for any of their actions. According to Shaw, their military expansionism throughout the rest of the Eastern Kingdoms was what broke both Stormwind's economy AND the Stonemasons Guild, and yet a few years later, they are still active and comfortably engaged in the city's various power games, secure in their status and privilege, while I don't know what happened to the Stonemasons, I guess they were disbanded.

The point being, even if we were all to accept the Defias as "evil", then there's still a strong argument to be made that much of the House of Nobles is no less so. The only difference being that the latter was from a position of superior power, class and political authority. Basically, they were both "bad", but one kind of provoked and instigated the other into a position of extremes, and were spared any kind of repercussions, both short-term and long-term.

For example, in the Stockades, you're not even allowed to kill Randolph Moloch because of his "connections" to the House of Nobles, despite his being responsible for the prison revolt.
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Randolph_Moloch
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Rifle_Commander_Coe

And according to the Westfall quests, Vanessa had been raised for 4 years by that Westfall family ever since Edwin's death. She seemed only around twelve years old at best from the memory of her father's death (during which Edwin called the Alliance players "lapdogs" and even moments from death, insisted that his cause was "righteous"). That would make Vanessa extremely young at the time of the Cataclysm, at most sixteen or seventeen years, and she was already able to achieve so much, becoming a dangerous subversive leader in her own right, closely working with goblins, worgen and people from Alliance and Horde races alike, nearly devastating the most formidable capital in the entire Alliance, all the while trying to feed and help the homeless populace in Westfall, etc.
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/A_Vision_of_the_Past

Even Gryan Stoutmantle (the one responsible for Edwin's death years prior) seemed to at first empathize with Vanessa's suffering:

I had no idea that VanCleef had a daughter, <name>. If there was one thing that man was exceptionally skilled at, it was keeping secrets.

How tragic. Poor thing witnessed a horrible act. Had I only known.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Ris...he_Brotherhood

Therefore, I think that Blizzard actually WANTED us to empathize with Vanessa to a certain extent, that made the storyline much more compelling and interesting. While it's not an excuse, many female teenagers with traumatized upbringings, who grow up in very poor and impoverished backgrounds, are indeed easily misled and do crazy things, get involved in gang activity and considerable violence and crime ― then mature as they grow older and develop more balanced views, as seems to have been the case with Vanessa. That what makes her incredibly realistic and human ― not a benevolent character, I think, but a genuinely complex and unique one. Also, look how many innocent people Illidan and Maiev, or even Garrosh and Grommash, killed "for the greater good", yet they are still regarded as popular heroes by lots of players, aren't they?

And one final thing, something mentioned earlier, Varian had no legal or moral authority to target and kill Moira, a foreign head of state and a fellow Alliance leader, as well as a widow and a mother of a baby dwarf that was Magni's grandson and heir to TWO dwarven kingdoms; as the dwarves noted during Anduin's visit, she was indeed the legitimate heir to Ironforge, never disowned by Magni. He was not High King, and Anduin was already safe on another continent with Jaina, and it must be said, Moira never tried to actually physically harm him, only keep him for several more weeks in the city. What should we call Varian's action against Ironforge? He literally snuck into Ironforge dressed all in black, seized a sleeping mother from her bedchambers, and held a sword at her throat, the attempted assassination of a sovereign foreign head of state (who was the daughter of his beloved friend Magni no less).

It would be like Varian suddenly trying to kill Tyrande's successor in Darnassus because he personally didn't like their new domestic policies in the night elf capital. Was that not also a radical and very extreme violent tactic that would have had serious repercussions on an entire city and society?

[Varodoc]

No, you're making a fairly honest mistake, that was from the original Defias under Edwin, in Classic World of Warcraft, not the Cataclysm one necessarily.

The Defias still use harvest golems in Cataclysm.

Is it not at all possible that Vanessa's motives were more altruistic and for the people than that of her late father?

No, it is not possible.

If she ever did something "altruistic", it was just to keep appearances, it was nothing more than an act.

She already made it clear that she doesn't care about the people when she sent the gnoll army to attack Sentinel's Hill (when there were still huge unfinished sections of the wall btw) and set fire to the town packed with refugees and civilians.

And what makes me uncomfortable is that the House of Nobles seems to have faced NO consequences whatsoever for any of their actions.

Those nobles of the institution who were corrupted and in league with Onyxia were dealt with.

The overexpansion of the Stormwind Military was secretly plotted by Lady Katrana Prestor (aka Onyxia) to empty the kingdom's treasury, so that they couldn't pay the Stonemasons.

while I don't know what happened to the Stonemasons, I guess they were disbanded.

??

They turned into the terrorist Defias organization.

The only difference

Is that the House of Nobles didn't actively harass farmers, burn fields, salt the earth, conspire with foreign mercenaries, and attempt to lay waste to the greatest human city of Azeroth.

Therefore, I think that Blizzard actually WANTED us to empathize with Vanessa to a certain extent, that made the storyline much more compelling and interesting.

The thread is about the Defias organization as a whole.

Vanessa's traumatic childhood doesn't change the fact that the Defias resorted to terrorist acts.

There is this idea that the Defias were Robin Hood-esque figures who wanted to protect the poor, but the reality of the Story couldn't be farther from it. The Defias were actively harassing the poor people... did they even do anything against the nobles, at all? They were literally bullying poor farmers the entire time.

And one final thing, something mentioned earlier, Varian had no legal or moral authority to target and kill Moira, a foreign head of state and a fellow Alliance leader, as well as a widow and a mother of a baby dwarf that was Magni's grandson and heir to TWO dwarven kingdoms; as the dwarves noted during Anduin's visit, she was indeed the legitimate heir to Ironforge, never disowned by Magni. He was not High King, and Anduin was already safe on another continent with Jaina, and it must be said, Moira never tried to actually physically harm him, only keep him for several more weeks in the city. What should we call Varian's action against Ironforge? He literally snuck into Ironforge dressed all in black, seized a sleeping mother from her bedchambers, and held a sword at her throat.

It would be like Varian suddenly trying to kill Tyrande's successor in Darnassus because he personally didn't like their new domestic policies in the night elf capital. Was that not also a radical and very extreme violent tactic that would have had serious repercussions on an entire city and society?

Eh? What does this weird tangent have to do with anything?

[OwenBurton]

Obviously Edwin's Defias Brotherhood at least fell far astray and lost their idealism somewhere along the way, perhaps due to increasingly difficult survival needs in Westfall or something, I'm not sure? (Although again, the Deadmines were literally resource-rich gold mines, they could have simply traded those resources with the farmers and merchants in the region rather than attack them, I'm not sure why they didn't do so).

Yet even Blizzard stated on its official website, archived here, that:

Legend holds that the Defias Brotherhood was founded by a group of noblemen who once stood for freedom and justice. Having long ago forsaken those noble virtues, the mysterious Defias faction is now composed of thieves, bandits, and vicious mercenaries. This vile group is determined to wreak havoc upon and ultimately destroy the House of Nobles in Stormwind City. Convinced that the Nobles are corrupt and villainous, the Defias Brotherhood has waged an underground war in their quest to rid the land of their hated enemies.

So the Defias did (eventually) lose their moral compass, but it seems that when Edwin first founded the Brotherhood, it stood for more humanitarian ideals and principles, perhaps actually even fighting for the ordinary people for a while.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/The...y#Defias_Thief

Is that the House of Nobles didn't actively harass farmers, burn fields, salt the earth, conspire with foreign mercenaries, and attempt to lay waste to the greatest human city of Azeroth.

Granted, but they still seemed to actively cheat and exploit Stormwind's working-class citizens, and for a much longer period of time, depriving them of their livelihoods and arguably their futures. Rebuilding Stormwind and its buildings was a HUGE and arduous undertaking, which took at least several years, and in the end, those who rebuilt the Alliance's greatest city were cruelly denied what they were owed, and Varian then cracked down hard upon them, likely killing some of them and resulting in more ill will towards the monarchy and the ruling elites. Even without Onyxia's manipulations, I can see how the nobles and the Stonemasons might still have violently clashed over payment differences.

Another key difference between the Defias and the House of Nobles: The wealthy Stormwind nobles still play a massively influential role in Stormwind society and politics, as close advisors to Turalyon, unlike Vanessa, as was mentioned, is literally hiding in the sewers of Dalaran right now, working as one of many rogues - her Defias Brotherhood mostly destroyed - but with a new and presumably less self-destructive purpose in her existence.

Basically, Vanessa changed and joined the Uncrowned as a respected champion who fought alongside other rogue heroes, killing countless demons during the war, whereas the House of Nobles once again seemed to contribute little of note in the actual war effort against world-ending threats.

Eh? What does this weird tangent have to do with anything?

Well, my point was that shortly around the same time Varian more or less ordered Vanessa killed for acts of radical violence, he also tried to kill Moira, an unarmed mother and queen of a sovereign realm in her own right - which was in itself an act of radical violence that he was frankly NOT at all authorized to perform. He's not the one to decide what consequences Moira should face for her misdeeds, or whether she should live or die.

It's not illegal for Moira to decide that Ironforge should be temporarily restricted to outsiders; her husband was literally killed in front of her in their secluded Shadowforge City by Alliance mercenaries sent by Magni while she was pregnant, I can understand some of her initial paranoia and mistrust towards the Alliance. She had (some) good intentions even then, she told Anduin how she sought to reconcile the dwarf clans by forcing the Bronzebeard dwarves to accept the Dark irons, whom she described as "children of the earthen" just as they were, part of the same shared family, and she also spoke to Anduin about how she was neglected because she was his daughter, not the son he always longed for. The point being, Varian was King of Stormwind, not regent of Ironforge; therefore, he had no real right to infiltrate Ironforge and place his personal judgment on Magni's daughter.

I think Baine even mentioned this in that War Crimes novel, when they were discussing how "each of them" had their own versions of Garrosh Hellscream inside of them or something. Which did not mean that Varian = Garrosh, but that Varian made terrible mistakes and morally dubious choices also in his moments of rage and bloodlust.