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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Dancaris View Post
    Victimblaming, victimblaming, victimblaming.
    Repeating yourself, does not make your words any truer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dancaris View Post
    Zandalari (despite been true neutral before Alliance put Talanji in jail) - fault that spies put bombs in their ships
    1) The Zandalari weren't neutral they were actively and openly HOSTILE to both factions until BFA. They released the Thunder King that nearly destroyed the world. The Alliance imprisoned Zul and Talanji because of that. It was completely justified. Heck they should have executed Zul. That would have prevented the whole G'huun shit.
    And in the same vein, the attack on Zandalar was justified. Not only did the Zandalari make it clear that they were hostile to the Alliance, they supported the Horde after the monstrous act of Teldrassil. Doubly justified to attack them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dancaris View Post
    Vulpera fault that Alliance wage war in Vol'Dun and dont know shit about Alliance/Horde war
    I admit that the Vulpera weren't really guilty. But by supporting the Horde they chose the wrong side. The Alliance did not start the war, as you will remember and in every war there is collateral damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dancaris View Post
    , goblins dig azerite in Zandalar - we kill them at glance.
    Goblins - enemy combatants some in mech suits, but all armed - dig for a substance that builds super powerful weapons for an insane Banshee that already murdered thousands of innocent civilians. Yeah, of course they get attacked and killed. What do you expect?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dancaris View Post
    And its ok to kill Vulpera bc its only 12 of them, right? And if we will count - NE died in Teldrassil was like 900, right? So killing 200 goblins by lava is ok bc 900>200, yes?
    I am not saying it is okay. I am saying you are blowing it out of proportion because you cannot accept that the Horde is clearly and abundantly the faction with more civilian murders, more warcrimes and more atorcities comitted. That is just a simple fact. You want to pull the Alliance down to the level of the Horde by pointing to these things and it isn't working because none of them were remotely as horrible as just the latest of the Horde crimes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dancaris View Post
    >We argue them because halve of them are untrue and the other halve blown completely out of proportion
    As I say - "your examples are wrong examples"!! See you in next thread.
    I argue your example, because they are mostly incorrect. That is how a discussion works. Also, I am still here. If you want to stop discussing, that is fine. Only the very biased people would agree to your points anyway.
    In fact it is about time for Mehrunes to come in and tell me how you are right and everything I say is wrong. He tends to just go along with whatever his fellow Horde partisans say, no matter how wrong and ludicrous it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    When did that happen exactly?

    You mean when the Zandalari organized the trolls and defended Azeroth from the Aqir?
    Or when the Zandalari fought against Hakkar twice?

    The only 'world calamity' as well as being enemy of both factions was caused by Zul and his followers, not the empire itself
    No. I mean when they released the Thunder King to have him wipe out all other races and help rebuild their empire and when they attacked the Shado-pan Monastery and were stopped by Vol'jin, Chen and Taran Zhu.

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    When did that happen exactly?

    You mean when the Zandalari organized the trolls and defended Azeroth from the Aqir?
    Or when the Zandalari fought against Hakkar twice?

    The only 'world calamity' as well as being enemy of both factions was caused by Zul and his followers, not the empire itself
    Zul is the main adviser of the emperor, slaughtered numerous pandaren civilians, brought Lei Shen back to life. For both Horde and Alliance he should be a target to capture or kill.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    but it was direct outcome of her actions, casued by soldiers she let into the "neutral" city, not by kirin tor, who are "police" in dalarn, by ALLIANCE SI7...
    and she doesnt even feel bad about it, remember in BFA in Thros? she remembered all bad things like doing nothing when arthas decided to purge stratholme or betraying her father, but not even a mention of a goddamn racial purge... you would think for anyone but literal psychopath massacre of innocents (especialy if it "wasnt her intention") would take top place on shit she did, but obviously no...
    She literally offers her life to the Sunreavers when freeing Baine in Orgrimmar and later admits that she has blood on her hands. She accepts the responsibility for it, even if it doesn't lie with her alone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    how dared the innocent shopkeepers defend themself agains ALIANCE SOLDIERS, who have no authority over them whatsoever, attacking them IN THEIR OWN SHOPS AND HOUSES, without any explanation or whatnot, its their fault...
    also why would they not trust alliance soldiers "only" arresting them, its not like alliance arrested elfs before in dalaran to execute them for doing absolutely nothing...
    Jaina had all authority necessary, as part of the Violet Council she had the right to make arrests and empowered the Alliance soldiers to act on her behalf. And again. Jaina had no way of knowing who was guilty. It could have been all or none. She had to arrest them to find out. What was her alternative? Do nothing and watch the traitors use more of Dalarans resources to empower the mad Orc. Aethas could have prevented the whole thing, Jaina could only act after the fact. She was radical and rash, but she was not wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    Jaina murdered innocents personaly, and let her soldiers murder innocents,
    When innocents start throwing fireballs at the police, the police start shooting them. It's about self-preservation at that point. And Jaina teleported all the peaceful ones away.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dancaris View Post
    there is ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSE for that whatsoever, even if handful of guilty was caught in crossfire, killing people bcs of their race bcs SOME OF THEM, theoreticaly might do something bad is a goddamn attrocity, which she should be held accountable for...
    And you know very well that any Horde leader would have done the same, some of them, like Sylvanas would have just murdered them all, no matter if civilian or combatant. And all the Horde partisans would defend that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dancaris View Post
    not to mention she wanted to level Orgrimmar, and didnt only bcs she was stopped - she didnt stop, she WAS STOPED (and not by alliance)...
    Wrong. Thrall did not have the power to stop her. He was faltering. If his and Kalecs words had not made her see that this wasn't her, there would not have been any stopping her.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    Jaina did terrible things
    She did and she accepts that. I am only saying that her actions were justified, they were still terrible. But that is what happens in a war. Good people are forced to do terrible things because very bad people decide they want to go to war.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    yet somehow the alliance leadership (and players) standing on their moral highground did decide to ignore that...
    I am not ignoring anything, I just see it in relative terms and in such, nothing the Alliance has ever done even comes close to even a single act the Horde performs regularly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    she gaves nelfs the divine bell and after purge kirin tor joined alliance on isle of thunder, how the HELL is that not direct benefit to alliance?!
    She gave them the Bell to study it, not to use it. She could entrust them to not do that, because the Nelfs were trustworthy. None of the races in the Horde was, with the exception of Baine and the Tauren aren't exactly known for their study of magic. Her main goal was keeping the Bell from being used since she knew very well how dangerous it was.
    The Horde would have used it, Garrosh made it clear that he loved destruction on a collossal level, so what choice did she have?



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    technicaly, zandalari were neutral until alliance killed Rastakhan, he did not join the horde, and did not join the war against alliance, zandalari did nothing more but defend their territory when alliance approached it...Talanji joined the horde after becoming queen, so after alliance attacked and killed Rastakhan[/QUOTE]

  4. #204
    I am Murloc! Maljinwo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    No. I mean when they released the Thunder King to have him wipe out all other races and help rebuild their empire and when they attacked the Shado-pan Monastery and were stopped by Vol'jin, Chen and Taran Zhu.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Zul is the main adviser of the emperor, slaughtered numerous pandaren civilians, brought Lei Shen back to life. For both Horde and Alliance he should be a target to capture or kill.
    Which Zul did on his own, not Rastakhan

    I'm sure you don't blame the Alliance for the prosecution of trolls that Theramore has done over the years
    This world don't give us nothing. It be our lot to suffer... and our duty to fight back.

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    I admit that the Vulpera weren't really guilty. But by supporting the Horde they chose the wrong side. The Alliance did not start the war, as you will remember and in every war there is collateral damage.
    That statement is golden.
    Than Jaina/Tyrande just chose wrong side, u know. If they didn't join Alliance and join Horde - there was no actions. No bombing, no burning.
    Or will we act like adults and admin that Alliance are not angels, they do war crimes too. And you cant just put all the blame to the Horde. And that Horde is answer to Alliance politic of racism, chauvinism and bigotry.
    While we all agree that crimes of the Horde are bigger than Alliance's.

  6. #206
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    Calia is the reason the BfA truce broke down (and was also what helped set off Sylvanus), so I always question why the Horde are blamed for that. That's also why the Calia storyline with the Forsaken in SL was so completely ludicrous. I guess redemption stories are popular, but that one was hard to rectify. I ran through the "Return to Lordaeron" questline one last time this week and RP'd it as not trusting Calia at all and disapproving of the move, but following orders and deferring to the Forsaken if they are desperate enough to choose her to be on the Council. And notably her first move on the Desolate Council was to push for withdrawing the Forsaken from Glineas, hmm. #NotOnMyCouncil

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by Dancaris View Post
    That statement is golden.
    it is, especialy since it seems to be only used when the "collateral damage" is on horde side...
    its really funny how some people cant see their double standards

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    They don't need to. New players start in Exile's Reach, and Stormwind is the only functional Alliance city in the game.
    Partially. Ironforge still retains several Alliance services, with heirloom vendors being exclusively available in Ironforge, whereas with the destruction of Undercity, heirloom services were moved into Orgrimmar for Horde. Regardless, there's no gameplay requirement for a new capitol, though it would be nice from an RP standpoint (still likely not worth the labor investment unless it's going to be used for something beyond just existing in game).

    Quote Originally Posted by Dancaris View Post
    Oh, more victimblaming here. Sunreavers knows nothing aside Aethas and that random elf from Theramore. But if Silver Covenant openly murders civilians and not evicted - so its right thing to do in Dalaran. See the Horde - kill the Horde, ye? And who is the bad guy here?
    Same with Mag'hars. Spacegoats attack them, not overwise. Killed, genosided, enslaved and turned into light-zombies.
    But hating similar spacegoats that do the same - its bad, yes?
    Dalaran is not known for its fair punishment. It almost executed an entire contingent of Alliance soldiers simply for accepting aid from the naga, who were not in conflict with the Alliance at the time; the naga were simply repugnant to some xenophobic commander, and that was all Dalaran needed to mete out the punishment. At least in this instance, Dalaran was dealing with internal politics (other Dalaran people) instead of nationals from another kingdom.

    Dalaran politics aside, it's not like the mag'har have a historical innocence in relation to the draenei, given they were using them for fel fuel for a portal to some other world. That doesn't excuse the draenei's action, though given the mag'har similarly had light zealots from among their ranks, it's unclear how much free will the draenei had in carrying out their forceful recruitment. While I'm glad we were able to save some mag'har, the lightforged and lightbound are different. Also, the mag'har were largely being brainwashed, not killed, though I'm not really sure how much better that is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dancaris View Post
    We still have Zul'Dazar, orc camps, Vulpera genoside, tauren sacred placed pillaging by dwarves, mass killing taurens by dwarves, goblin murdering by DI dwarves at Zandalar, Echo Isles mass murdering by Daelin, Garrithos, exile of Highborne bc Malfurion was a dick - that which led to heavy losses by them.
    But in any thread in that forums only Alliance players start count crimes. And when Horde players answers - they rage, start yelling and quit. To start new thread in a week.
    Garithos never interacted with the Horde. Likewise, there was no Horde when Malfurion exiled the Highborne for tampering with dangerous magics that could lead to another Legion invasion (a little different than being a "dick"). You had a decent list until you started overreaching for things that, historically, had nothing to do with the Horde.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    The portal led directly into the territory of the Sunreavers in Dalaran... and Aethas literally stumbled onto them, so yeah... the thought that they are connected to the Sunreavers kinda presents itself.

    And besides that, when was she supposed to question them? While Fireballs and Blades were flying at ther face? Do Police Officers usually question people in the middle of a shoot-out? No, they arrest, then question. As was Jaina's intention.
    Didn't the portal lead to the Violet Citadel? Regardless, Jaina started killing Sunreaver soldiers before they ever attacked, at least as presented in-game. There have been some post-event walkbacks by Blizzard of what exactly happened, though even in the Alliance scenario, Jaina kills the guards outright while confronting Aethas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    When did that happen exactly?

    You mean when the Zandalari organized the trolls and defended Azeroth from the Aqir?
    Or when the Zandalari fought against Hakkar twice?

    The only 'world calamity' as well as being enemy of both factions was caused by Zul and his followers, not the empire itself
    Zul was a member of the Zanchuli Council during those actions and acted with Rastakhan's authority, even if it was without Rastakhan's favor. His actions were the actions of the Empire.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    Which Zul did on his own, not Rastakhan

    I'm sure you don't blame the Alliance for the prosecution of trolls that Theramore has done over the years
    Jaina helped bring Daelin to justice. Rastakhan continued to allow Zul to remain on the council and act with authority as a trusted advisor, despite Talanji's warnings.

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Dancaris View Post
    Kek, that is still funny.
    1. Nope, whole Alliance gather funds to camps/admited Garithos leadership. So technically that still counts.
    2.So if something was done with single actor that doesn't count? Why blame Horde then?
    Teldrassil? Sylvanas. Bell? Garrosh. Theramore? Garrosh. Something else? Demonblood by Mannoroth. Easy-peasy.
    3. So if some crimes are "lesser" than another - its ok to do that? Tell Vuplera children that they are killed bc some draenei was killed in different planet by orcs (unfamiliar to Vulpera) 30 or so years ago, bc they drink demonblood that come bc draenei run from them. Good logic.

    While I agree that in most places Alliance had moral highground (debatable but ok) - dont act like Alliance are rabbits that poop rainbows and pick flowers.
    Horde started with "noble savages" theme and it should be so. And with addition of Elves - Horde had maybe more culture presence than Alliance.

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    Victimblaming, victimblaming, victimblaming. Zandalari (despite been true neutral before Alliance put Talanji in jail) - fault that spies put bombs in their ships, Vulpera fault that Alliance wage war in Vol'Dun and dont know shit about Alliance/Horde war, goblins dig azerite in Zandalar - we kill them at glance.
    And its ok to kill Vulpera bc its only 12 of them, right? And if we will count - NE died in Teldrassil was like 900, right? So killing 200 goblins by lava is ok bc 900>200, yes?
    >We argue them because halve of them are untrue and the other halve blown completely out of proportion
    As I say - "your examples are wrong examples"!! See you in next thread.
    I can make a super long post debunking it but i want to start with this - only thing funny is you misinterpreting lore. But its a sad kind of funny.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    Which Zul did on his own, not Rastakhan

    I'm sure you don't blame the Alliance for the prosecution of trolls that Theramore has done over the years
    So Garithos and Daelin are Alliance’s fault but Zul is not Zandalari’s fault?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Biglog View Post
    Calia is the reason the BfA truce broke down (and was also what helped set off Sylvanus), so I always question why the Horde are blamed for that. That's also why the Calia storyline with the Forsaken in SL was so completely ludicrous. I guess redemption stories are popular, but that one was hard to rectify. I ran through the "Return to Lordaeron" questline one last time this week and RP'd it as not trusting Calia at all and disapproving of the move, but following orders and deferring to the Forsaken if they are desperate enough to choose her to be on the Council. And notably her first move on the Desolate Council was to push for withdrawing the Forsaken from Glineas, hmm. #NotOnMyCouncil
    Because you can either try and repair your image and push away from Sylvanas baggage, or try to be stubborn and bury yourself in it and lose more in the end.

  10. #210
    Light comes from darkness shise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    Camp Taurajo. We will never forget.
    Can´t compare a crossroads outpost with Teldrassil tho :P

  11. #211
    I am Murloc! Maljinwo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    So Garithos and Daelin are Alliance’s fault but Zul is not Zandalari’s fault?
    On the contrary. Just as they are not the Alliance's fault, Zul is not Rastakhan's as he left to pursue his own devices
    This world don't give us nothing. It be our lot to suffer... and our duty to fight back.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Dancaris View Post
    We still have Zul'Dazar, orc camps, Vulpera genoside, tauren sacred placed pillaging by dwarves, mass killing taurens by dwarves, goblin murdering by DI dwarves at Zandalar, Echo Isles mass murdering by Daelin, Garrithos, exile of Highborne bc Malfurion was a dick - that which led to heavy losses by them.
    But in any thread in that forums only Alliance players start count crimes. And when Horde players answers - they rage, start yelling and quit. To start new thread in a week.
    When Horde players answer with incomplete out of context bullshit and headcanon, all of which has been disproven repeatedly, why should they expect good answers?

    The only thing your headcanon here deserves is this:



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    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    Camp Taurajo. We will never forget.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Horde is basically the guy that gets mad that the guy that they just beat the crap out of had the audacity to bleed on them.
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  13. #213
    You know what the truly hilarious thing is? Horde Council Member and Mulgore Leader Baine Bloodhoof stated clearly and explicitly that Camp Taurajo was a legitimate military target, and banished from Mulgore any crazed foolish tauren who could not understand this simple fact.

    It seems that even the Horde in-universe doesn't care about Camp Taurajo.

    I just wish Horde players irl could get over it as well and follow Baine's stellar example

    But it looks like the memo from Blizzard still hasn't been received by these players...

  14. #214
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    you will spend unspecified time in LITERALL HELL" is hardly slap on the wrist...
    yet slap on the wrist is still worse punishment than what alliance characters get when they commit warcrimes or such... usualy they get promoted like Jaina
    Jaina never got a promotion in the alliance she has literally never had a position that the alliance could promote or demote her from.

    Thereamore was her own kingdom and not under Allaince rule, dalaran was part of the alliance for a bit and kul tiris is now but both of them are still there own kingdoms and can function how they see fit and the only thing the alliance can do is kick them out if they don’t like it they have no actual power over who governs them.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    You know what the truly hilarious thing is? Horde Council Member and Mulgore Leader Baine Bloodhoof stated clearly and explicitly that Camp Taurajo was a legitimate military target, and banished from Mulgore any crazed foolish tauren who could not understand this simple fact.

    It seems that even the Horde in-universe doesn't care about Camp Taurajo.

    I just wish Horde players irl could get over it as well and follow Baine's stellar example

    But it looks like the memo from Blizzard still hasn't been received by these players...
    I don't care about the players understanding it if even Blizzard doesn't understand it in the first place.

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by Xilurm View Post
    I don't care about the players understanding it if even Blizzard doesn't understand it in the first place.
    What do you mean?

    Camp Taurajo was an extremely dangerous staging ground for Horde troops and hunters close to the Theramore borders, making it a legitimate military target. Baine himself acknowledging this and banishing the psychos who wanted revenge proves it.

    This, however, is different from Theramore itself, which was NOT a legitimate military target, hence why Garrosh was formally put on trial for genocide, amongst many other "war crimes".

    It seems like Blizzard understood their own Story perfectly... sadly, a few Horde players haven't.

  17. #217
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dancaris View Post
    We still have Zul'Dazar, orc camps, Vulpera genoside, tauren sacred placed pillaging by dwarves, mass killing taurens by dwarves, goblin murdering by DI dwarves at Zandalar, Echo Isles mass murdering by Daelin, Garrithos, exile of Highborne bc Malfurion was a dick - that which led to heavy losses by them.
    But in any thread in that forums only Alliance players start count crimes. And when Horde players answers - they rage, start yelling and quit. To start new thread in a week.
    Like half of theses aren’t even wrongs or never actually happens.

    There was no vulpera genocide that never made it off the PTR.

    The orc camps was a moral right as the only other option was to wipe them all out.

    The goblins in zandalar were active combatants in a war the horde started.

    Daelin was openly opposed by the alliance and given no support.

    Garrithos has no ties to the current alliance and was part of lorderon who is now part of the horde.

    The high Bourne was exiled for a legit reason and later lead to the legion showing up again by teaching magic to humans exactly what the night elfs said would happen, and even after there exile the night elfs sent support during the troll wars.

    The alliance do have some legit wrongs but most of these aren’t them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dancaris View Post
    That statement is golden.
    Than Jaina/Tyrande just chose wrong side, u know. If they didn't join Alliance and join Horde - there was no actions. No bombing, no burning.
    Both Jaina and Tyranda joined the alliance because of the horde, Tyranda because they couldn’t trust the horde after WC3 and needed aliens and Jaina only after thereamore was bombed which played a similar was to Zandalar being a neural area that one faction was staging out of.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Biglog View Post
    Calia is the reason the BfA truce broke down (and was also what helped set off Sylvanus), so I always question why the Horde are blamed for that.
    both BTS and the sylvanas book tell us that they were making plans to start the war before Calia was found out to be alive, Calia had literally nothing to do with starting the war.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    The orc camps was a moral right as the only other option was to wipe them all out.
    BULL. SHIT.

    There were plenty other options, they were just more risky or less convenient. You're picking two options that came EASY (kill them, or put them in concentration camps) and because they went with one that was slightly less bad you're now saying it was "morally right"?

    Do you realize how many things you can justify as "morally right" if you just pretend they're all false dichotomies?

  19. #219
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aresk View Post
    Zul was a member of the Zanchuli Council during those actions and acted with Rastakhan's authority, even if it was without Rastakhan's favor. His actions were the actions of the Empire.
    Zul and his followers were exiled and tried to start there own kingdom with the Mogu they didn’t have Rastakhan’S backing and there actions weren’t for the empire, the Mogu even show up later and say Zul said they could have Zandalar and they are told to fuck off and he wasn’t speaking for the empire.

    Really Zul and his followers are no different then the high bourn they were exiled did abunch of shady stuff without the night elfs approval and then were let back in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    BULL. SHIT.

    There were plenty other options, they were just more risky or less convenient. You're picking two options that came EASY (kill them, or put them in concentration camps) and because they went with one that was slightly less bad you're now saying it was "morally right"?

    Do you realize how many things you can justify as "morally right" if you just pretend they're all false dichotomies?
    Your right I’m sorry, they could have also let the orcs continue to rampage through out the land and wipe out the alliance under Gromosh, how could I forget that option.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Your right I’m sorry, they could have also let the orcs continue to rampage through out the land and wipe out the alliance under Gromosh, how could I forget that option.
    You can just SAY "we didn't want to take chances, so we went with an easy solution" instead of trying to somehow pretend it was the ONLY solution.

    Makes it all seem at least slightly less hypocritical, you know.

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