Credit where Credit is due

[Surfd]

No, Dragon flight has retconned that to be the SECOND time centaurs were created, the ones on the Dragon Isles existed before that.

Not that I want to go full pedant here, but if this is your argument, then you pretty clearly don't properly understand the difference between a "Retroactive Continuity Change" and "Expanding Lore".

The existing lore is that Kalimdor Centaurs came from a specific source: A mating between Zaetar and Theradras.

A retcon to that lore would be something like saying "oops, we were wrong, it was actually Cenarius and Theradras, our bad, change all existing lore to fit the new info."

Expanding the lore by going "hey, have you ever considered that Kalimdor might not be the only place that has Centaurs?" is a COMPLETELY different thing. No Retcon involved, because, at least to the best of my knowledge, it has never been explicitly stated or implied that Centaurs only exist in Kalimdor and nowhere else.

[Skytotem]

Not that I want to go full pedant here, but if this is your argument, then you pretty clearly don't properly understand the difference between a "Retroactive Continuity Change" and "Expanding Lore".

The existing lore is that Kalimdor Centaurs came from a specific source: A mating between Zaetar and Theradras.

A retcon to that lore would be something like saying "oops, we were wrong, it was actually Cenarius and Theradras, our bad, change all existing lore to fit the new info."

Expanding the lore by going "hey, have you ever considered that Kalimdor might not be the only place that has Centaurs?" is a COMPLETELY different thing. No Retcon involved, because, at least to the best of my knowledge, it has never been explicitly stated or implied that Centaurs only exist in Kalimdor and nowhere else.

You're being pedantic :P

EDIT: Specifically, the point is that while they never bothered to say that the Centaur we had now were the first centaur... it's absolutely a poor decision and a dramatic change to lore to say "Oh yeah, there were centaur in Kalimdor 10k years ago and they went across the sea to the dragon isles... and then Zaetar and Theradras just happened to make a NEW generation of centaur... somehow."

Where did the first Gen centaur come from? We don't know!

How did Theradras and Zaetar make a second gen of an existing race through their coupling? Who cares! Not blizz apparently.

I guess next expac we'll go to another planet and find out that two elementals there made tauren by banging together.

[Jazzhands]

Blizz is basically saying in the interview 'oh the first centaur evolved naturally' because they just wanted to move on, that answer to him was nonsensical because then Zaetar and Theradras's coupling just happened to create a species that is exactly the same as a pre-existing race, it's like if a pair of elementals and life creatures on draenor suddenly made night elves distinct from the ones that existed on Azeroth.

Why would another elemental/life creature pair on Kalimdor have made the exact same offspring? It's clunky writing and they clearly don't have an answer, so it doesn't make sense that they'd bother to say that these centaur are specifically a prior generation and not just... recent arrivals or retcon Theradras/Zaetar as having taken place earlier.

Why can't both happen?

[Skytotem]

Why can't both happen?

You're going to have to clarify your wording there, I'm not sure what you mean.

[Surfd]

Blizz is basically saying in the interview 'oh the first centaur evolved naturally' because they just wanted to move on, that answer to him was nonsensical because then Zaetar and Theradras's coupling just happened to create a species that is exactly the same as a pre-existing race, it's like if a pair of elementals and life creatures on draenor suddenly made night elves distinct from the ones that existed on Azeroth.

Why would another elemental/life creature pair on Kalimdor have made the exact same offspring? It's clunky writing and they clearly don't have an answer, so it doesn't make sense that they'd bother to say that these centaur are specifically a prior generation and not just... recent arrivals or retcon Theradras/Zaetar as having taken place earlier.

Umm, you do realize that you are asking for some kind of foundational laws and textbook rules for "Fantasy World Genetics and Breeding" in a world setting that literally probably hasn't even considered how any of that stuff really works beyond maybe absolute bare bones basics like "We can have elves and humans bang to get half elves, right?" levels of thought?

Like, why is it a pressing matter to have a really well thought out explanation of why Elementals and Dryads getting it on might somehow produce centaurs as offspring all the time when you live in a world where a curse can turn animated stone statues into an entire race of beings capable of biological reproduction, or where every other continent you go to seems to have a race of Bull/Moose/Bison/Yak people on it yet nobody really questions that? I mean, at this point I think the only continent on azeroth that DOESNT have some kind of Tauren adjacent species on it is the Eastern Kingdoms, which kind of makes me suspicious about a lot of shit.

[Skytotem]

Umm, you do realize that you are asking for some kind of foundational laws and textbook rules for "Fantasy World Genetics and Breeding" in a world setting that literally probably hasn't even considered how any of that stuff really works beyond maybe absolute bare bones basics like "We can have elves and humans bang to get half elves, right?" levels of thought?

Like, why is it a pressing matter to have a really well thought out explanation of why Elementals and Dryads getting it on might somehow produce centaurs as offspring all the time when you live in a world where a curse can turn animated stone statues into an entire race of beings capable of biological reproduction, or where every other continent you go seems to have a race of Bull/Moose/Elk/Bison/Yak people on it yet nobody really questions that?

No, I'm asking for them to have -a- answer. I don't need laws and a textbook, I need them to just say "yeah one of cenarius's other kids and a different earth elemental did it"

Instead they're going "Uh yeah... that answer nobbel said sounds good, whatever"

It doesn't have to be well thought out! It doesn't need to be detailed! I just want a story written by people who give enough of a shit to give *A* answer when they went out of their way to make a new gen of Centaur and... seemingly they don't even know why they did so? If all they wanted was to have centaur on the isles none of that needed this weird 'first generation' nonsense.

[Jazzhands]

You're going to have to clarify your wording there, I'm not sure what you mean.

Why can't some have evolved naturally, and some be the off-spring of a Wild god and Elementals? What within the lore makes this unreasonable? Would it be better if Blizzard expanded Theradras and Zaetar lore and just said "Oh, yeah, they really liked Centaurs so they made their own"?

[Skytotem]

Why can't some have evolved naturally, and some be the off-spring of a Wild god and Elementals? What within the lore makes this unreasonable? Would it be better if Blizzard expanded Theradras and Zaetar lore and just said "Oh, yeah, they really liked Centaurs so they made their own"?

"in universe" nothing is wrong with it, but either way that's clunky writing that doesn't really make sense.

[Jazzhands]

"in universe" nothing is wrong with it, but either way that's clunky writing that doesn't really make sense.

This is a world of magic. Nothing has to make sense, because magic is magic and magic can do whatever they need magic to do. That's why it's magic.

Also, saying it's clunky writing is about as useful as saying a class is clunky. It doesn't mean anything unless you can actually articulate what exactly is clunky about it. This is an 18 year long story with tons of writers trying to pick up and learn tiny tidbits of stuff from years and years ago. Not everything is going to flow well.

[Skytotem]

This is a world of magic. Nothing has to make sense, because magic is magic and magic can do whatever they need magic to do. That's why it's magic.

Also, saying it's clunky writing is about as useful as saying a class is clunky. It doesn't mean anything unless you can actually articulate what exactly is clunky about it. This is an 18 year long story with tons of writers trying to pick up and learn tiny tidbits of stuff from years and years ago. Not everything is going to flow well.

It's a -story-.

The magic doesn't have to make sense, but the STORY, the WORLD needs to be INTERNALLY consistent.

If characters do things 'because they just did them stop ASKING GAWD' then that's not good storytelling. A good storyteller bothers to make things flow -well- even if they don't ever flow -perfectly-.

The centaur thing isn't an issue of 'well we tried and we just couldn't make this work' it's a case of them intentionally doing a weird change and seemingly having no thoughts on its impact or origin.

Again, they didn't NEED to make the Kalimdor centaur a "Second Gen" and the Dragon Isles "Kalimdor 1st Gen that moved there before the sundering" they could've just said the Centaur were recent arrivals.

They could've said the Centaur were older than Chronicle said. Hell, they could've said the Centaur somehow got there while they were otherwise 'sealed' and made this a special skill of the Eagle Wild God's to get them there, -anything-.

But here they're fumbling for answers because they *never bothered to think about them*.

[lordjust]

Why can't some have evolved naturally, and some be the off-spring of a Wild god and Elementals? What within the lore makes this unreasonable? Would it be better if Blizzard expanded Theradras and Zaetar lore and just said "Oh, yeah, they really liked Centaurs so they made their own"?

The centaurs of Kalimdor are misfigured keeper. The whole thing about them was that they shouldn't exist and are unwanted and now they added some that just existed before and have no explanation why they exist. They could've expanded on the old lore and said that they're the product of another keeper with another elemental and that those dragonisle centaur did something bad and that's why Cenarius was against the the centaur of Kalimdor or something. But they didn't do that. They just said, hey here are new centauer. Where do they come from? Nobody knows.

Also the centauer on the dragonisle aren't even native to the dragonisles. While questing we learn they were nomadic traibes just like the centaur on Kalimdor that travelled the whole of Azeroth and settled down in the Onahan plains more as an accident because the different tribes fought over the plains as a hunting ground and what are now cities were previously outposts and the tribes united once the green flight tried to push them out of the plains.

So it is implied that centaur were all over Azeroth in the past and somehow got extinct at some point and only the ones on the dragonisles survived because they were hidden with the isles by the aspects. Which opens up the question, what happened to all the other centaur that roamed Azeroth and didn't fight against each other in the Onahan plains?

They added all this new lore that doesn't fit with the existing one.

[Jazzhands]

It's a -story-.

The magic doesn't have to make sense, but the STORY, the WORLD needs to be INTERNALLY consistent.

If characters do things 'because they just did them stop ASKING GAWD' then that's not good storytelling. A good storyteller bothers to make things flow -well- even if they don't ever flow -perfectly-.

The centaur thing isn't an issue of 'well we tried and we just couldn't make this work' it's a case of them intentionally doing a weird change and seemingly having no thoughts on its impact or origin.

Again, they didn't NEED to make the Kalimdor centaur a "Second Gen" and the Dragon Isles "Kalimdor 1st Gen that moved there before the sundering" they could've just said the Centaur were recent arrivals.

They could've said the Centaur were older than Chronicle said. Hell, they could've said the Centaur somehow got there while they were otherwise 'sealed' and made this a special skill of the Eagle Wild God's to get them there, -anything-.

But here they're fumbling for answers because they *never bothered to think about them*.

I spent about 2 minutes on WoWpedia. They seem to have fleshed it out quite nicely.

Because of the unnaturalness of their parents' relationship, the centaur were born cursed, misshapen, and hateful. Upon seeing his children, Zaetar immediately realized his sin.

So it's been established that the centaur we know aren't exactly natural, they're the product of a coupling that shouldn't have happened. Cenarius is the father of Dryads, so I see no reason why one of his off-spring can't also produce weird human-horse hybrids. The centaurs on the isle are simply a naturally occurring thing like tons of other living things on Azeroth, and a horse dude mated with an elemental and made more horse dudes but they were messed up. This seems perfectly fine for a fantasy story, not everything has to have an immensely deep origin story.

Why do the centaurs have to be something more than a naturally occurring race? Why is that good enough for some but not others? There are plenty of races without deep origin stories. Tauren come from Yuangol, and Yuangol were just... there. They just hung out with Cenarius, no origin or story about how they came to be.

[FelPlague]

No, Dragon flight has retconned that to be the SECOND time centaurs were created, the ones on the Dragon Isles existed before that.

not correct, maybe play the beta and learn the lore.

[Kellorion]

the fact that he kept doubling down on SL and The Jailer, Sire, and the Dreadlords werent at all behind everything, and the older stuff wasnt affected, when
SHADOWLANDS ITSELF KEPT SAYING "ITS ALL US, WE DID IT ALL, 7 out of 10 PEOPLE YOU EVER MET WERE DREADLORDS, WE BAD, METZEN SUCKS, WOOTAGE'

[Jaggler]

A Keeper of the Grove had children.

Ohn'ahra took them and guided them to the Dragon Isles.

There were no more Centaur on Kalimdor.

The Dragon Isles got sealed away.

A few thousand years later, another Keeper of the Grove had children.

I don't see how there is any affront to the lore or any retconning going on.

[Nzx]

This is the equivalent of going in the PVP forum and saying "Gosh, it's crazy that people here care about PVP!"

Yeah, sure it is. If you go into the PvP forum and make a post bragging about how you haven't played in years, sure. The phrase "get a life" literally exists for people who think like this, and I'm genuinely concerned for your wellbeing if you "quit" something and then spend the next several years of your life being deeply concerned about the minutia of it's storyline. Move on, this obsession is unhealthy.

[Raisei]

Dumbuser needs to be sacked, but it's Blizzard they're all about rewarding mediocrity and incompetence these days

The only problem with this is that I do not believe that there is anyone else in that department that can take over and be better. Apart from hiring Golden for the Job or getting someone completely new. Danuser was already a desperate pick, he was writing quest texts when Afrasiabi was in charge and when they kicked that one they must have just put the hat on whoever didn't run away fast enough.

I really hope I am wrong and DF will have an amazing story, but SLs sure as hell did not give me hope. And now we have this 5 year jump, which I think only exists so that Danuser doesn't have to deal with the SLs fallout anymore. The problem is that for the player it wasn't 5 years and while the characters might have forgotten all the warcrimes and injustices of the Blood War (however that is possible... 5 years is nothing in the eyes of history) the players have not.
We haven't forgotten how Sylvanas was put in Plotarmor as thick as the Great Wall, so that no one would be able to put a scratch on her and we haven't forgotten that the Alliance has been denied justice for all the crimes commited yet again and the playerbase has not forgiven the Horde, no matter how much the writers want to think so.
If you start a story with a huge crime against one of the factions and then end it with a the perpetrators going completely free and happy or in Sylvanas case with some Community Service, then something in your story is just very wrong. We are just meant to forget that BFA and Shadowlands ever existed, but we have been given no reason to move on, because one faction is living with the consequences, while the other is laughing about getting away without any consequences again.

On top of this. 5 years is a lot of time to gather souls in the Maw... I see Sylvanas back in the first patch now, completely rehabilitated and likely happily accepted as a leader in the Horde. It really helps to be the writers pet.

Lmao. It is fucking crazy to me that people think like this, and even more crazy that multiple people agree with them and don't consider it weird that they spend this much time caring about an irrelevant lore tidbit from a game they haven't played for years.

You know what is much more crazy? Coming into a Lore forum to say that the Lore doesn't matter and should not be cared about. Like, what are you even doing here, if you don't care? Don't you have anything else to spend your time on?

[Shadowferal]

Yeah, sure it is. If you go into the PvP forum and make a post bragging about how you haven't played in years, sure. The phrase "get a life" literally exists for people who think like this, and I'm genuinely concerned for your wellbeing if you "quit" something and then spend the next several years of your life being deeply concerned about the minutia of it's storyline. Move on, this obsession is unhealthy.

Maybe you should stop obsessing over those in the lore forum who care about the lore. Or is trolling such individuals your idea of fun?

[Houle]

Damn, you really love spreading a bunch of nonsense, huh? Where does he say he hates the old lore, what???

Giving credit where it's due, Danuser is at least consistent in what we makes. I absolutely cannot say the same regarding the old lore. I mean, Sargeras' backstory alone was rewritten 3 different times...

Danuser....consistent?
Yeahhhhhhh right. No.

[Feanoro]

Damn, you really love spreading a bunch of nonsense, huh? Where does he say he hates the old lore, what???

He has in interviews stated that he views consistency as constraining and does not want to be held to the earlier material. Given the clear efforts to rewrite, ignore, or demonize the old characters/settings/rules, it's pretty damn obvious.

Not my fault or problem that you aren't aware of this and clearly don't put in the effort to know about it.