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  1. #21
    Guy had an Old God's heart above his head for what, a couple weeks and was already ranting and raving about his apocalyptic visions in a way he never has before or since. Give him more time and he'd have drank the Old God kool-aid at least as much as Azshara, if not Cho'gall.
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  2. #22
    The worst thing that ever happened in the history of warcraft was Garrosh winning the duel with Cairne, by plot contrivance.

    And while the story consequences are vast... really, the more important part is the meta narrative. That is to say, Blizzard's dogged belief that mindless drama and conflict is the only way to tell a story. It is this belief which since Cata time and again has killed good lore characters, or if not, then ruined them or otherwise reduced them to meaninglessness. Jaina was hit with the drama bat and thoroughly betrayed her own wc3 core characterization. Sylvanas lacked a purpose after WotLk and thus was slowly tiptoed into the garbage 5dchess nonsense everyone is so sick of. Thrall was given his time in the spotlight, but decried for it and sidelined. Nobody cared about Tyrande, so they unsuccesfully made her edgy. And on and on and on: all in the name of cheap drama that leads nowhere but to wrecked characters.

    And Garrosh, of course, is the crowning jewel of this thinking: a brash idiot who is blatantly wrong in everything he does... but he does it with such drama and confidence! So much so, even, that his sheer foolishness has charmed the lowlives into thinking he was actually kind of cool. Such idiocy has fractured the Horde's identity beyond repair; and then they did it again with Sylvanas.

    If Cairne had won, not just the physical battle but the battle of the metanarrative, then he would have been Warchief, and there would have been no faction war, no WoD, no BFA, and no SL. Instead of central plots centered on a pointlessly convoluted series of events that are ultimately spurred only by shortsighted character drama. Which is not to say that there ought be no conflict, but rather that we might have had expansion premises focusing on the world itself—on events or concepts, rather than the drama of individual characters.

    So when you say this, OP, I laugh. One can scarce imagine a worse scenario.

  3. #23
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    No, what matters if what we're shown. And Garrosh was not in control. Do you really think it's more likely that Garrosh has actually managed to subvert the mind influence of an old god on his own and make it work for him, to show him the visions he wanted, instead of the old god showing him specific visions to make Garrosh do the old god's work while believing everything he's doing is of his own free will?
    Again, it's wrong, the devs already confirmed he was not controlled, he was using the power like a tool. Garrosh was in 100% control but with his dark negative emotions augmented by the power of sha.

    Sayign he was not in control is not just wrong, but invalidate all the development they made to say "herp derp he was evil by his own not because corruption or outside factors" that they push later


    ... Wow. The lengths one would go to pretend they're not wrong is astounding.
    says the guy doing mental gymnastics to pretend the devs and canon are wrong, and he is right ~~because he doesn't feel like it~~, truly astounding indeed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    He probably is in your mind

    Unfortunately for you, he was very much mortal in reality, that's why he got fried by Thrall and then nuked into non-existence by the Janitor.
    Can't detect a lil joke right?, and he didn't got nuked by the janitor, he nuked himself



    You know they're synonyms right?

    And he "Ignored" them so much that, as per his own admission in the rambling lunacy quotes I reported above, he was following what the visions showed him.
    Not in this case, no, the context is different, and the meanings are different, the fact is that Garry was not controlled and was using the power as a tool

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arikara View Post
    The worst thing that ever happened in the history of warcraft was Garrosh winning the duel with Cairne, by plot contrivance.

    And while the story consequences are vast... really, the more important part is the meta narrative. That is to say, Blizzard's dogged belief that mindless drama and conflict is the only way to tell a story. It is this belief which since Cata time and again has killed good lore characters, or if not, then ruined them or otherwise reduced them to meaninglessness. Jaina was hit with the drama bat and thoroughly betrayed her own wc3 core characterization. Sylvanas lacked a purpose after WotLk and thus was slowly tiptoed into the garbage 5dchess nonsense everyone is so sick of. Thrall was given his time in the spotlight, but decried for it and sidelined. Nobody cared about Tyrande, so they unsuccesfully made her edgy. And on and on and on: all in the name of cheap drama that leads nowhere but to wrecked characters.

    And Garrosh, of course, is the crowning jewel of this thinking: a brash idiot who is blatantly wrong in everything he does... but he does it with such drama and confidence! So much so, even, that his sheer foolishness has charmed the lowlives into thinking he was actually kind of cool. Such idiocy has fractured the Horde's identity beyond repair; and then they did it again with Sylvanas.

    If Cairne had won, not just the physical battle but the battle of the metanarrative, then he would have been Warchief, and there would have been no faction war, no WoD, no BFA, and no SL. Instead of central plots centered on a pointlessly convoluted series of events that are ultimately spurred only by shortsighted character drama. Which is not to say that there ought be no conflict, but rather that we might have had expansion premises focusing on the world itself—on events or concepts, rather than the drama of individual characters.

    So when you say this, OP, I laugh. One can scarce imagine a worse scenario.
    If cairne had won the alliance would have wipe out the horde, people are delusional thinking there would not be faction war, people forget how the alliance and Varian were the aggressors before Garrosh and before knowing Garrosh was warchief, only him stand up and fought back.

    Not just that, the period after wtlk till mop was one of the best for the faction and characters in terms of development and stories. It was fun to play both factions and do their questlines

    Worst thing by far was making Sylvanus Warchief and all the shitshow that happened in Legion till shadowlands

    In short, the writers changed, the direction of the story changed, they lost touch and start doing garbage.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Again, it's wrong, the devs already confirmed he was not controlled, he was using the power like a tool. Garrosh was in 100% control but with his dark negative emotions augmented by the power of sha.

    Sayign he was not in control is not just wrong, but invalidate all the development they made to say "herp derp he was evil by his own not because corruption or outside factors" that they push later




    says the guy doing mental gymnastics to pretend the devs and canon are wrong, and he is right ~~because he doesn't feel like it~~, truly astounding indeed.

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    Can't detect a lil joke right?, and he didn't got nuked by the janitor, he nuked himself





    Not in this case, no, the context is different, and the meanings are different, the fact is that Garry was not controlled and was using the power as a tool

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    If cairne had won the alliance would have wipe out the horde, people are delusional thinking there would not be faction war, people forget how the alliance and Varian were the aggressors before Garrosh and before knowing Garrosh was warchief, only him stand up and fought back.

    Not just that, the period after wtlk till mop was one of the best for the faction and characters in terms of development and stories. It was fun to play both factions and do their questlines

    Worst thing by far was making Sylvanus Warchief and all the shitshow that happened in Legion till shadowlands

    In short, the writers changed, the direction of the story changed, they lost touch and start doing garbage.
    I really don't know if you're a troll, or close to overdosing on copium

  5. #25
    Scarab Lord Polybius's Avatar
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  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    If cairne had won the alliance would have wipe out the horde, people are delusional thinking there would not be faction war, people forget how the alliance and Varian were the aggressors before Garrosh and before knowing Garrosh was warchief, only him stand up and fought back.

    Not just that, the period after wtlk till mop was one of the best for the faction and characters in terms of development and stories. It was fun to play both factions and do their questlines

    Worst thing by far was making Sylvanus Warchief and all the shitshow that happened in Legion till shadowlands

    In short, the writers changed, the direction of the story changed, they lost touch and start doing garbage.
    You accuse me of delusion while high on a delusion of your own weaving, to justify your pre-existing biases. Uh-huh.

    There would have been no war. Certainly that is not up for discussion. To suggest such is patently ridiculous; the Alliance's issue was exactly with the Horde leadership, which is fair given its lack of quality at the time, and the logging operation in Ashenvale. The former solves itself, and the latter may have been addressed with an agreement of permitted logging under the oversight and restoration efforts of the Cenarion Circle—only, that would have been inconvenient narratively, as Warsong Gulch is required to continue to exist purely for game purposes.

    Garrosh's story is the same as post-Cata Sylvanas' story, only Sylvanas was edgy instead of shouty—both were insubordinate fools with more ambition than sense. The writing grew ever-more drama-focused with Sylvanas, but did not significantly change in character.

  7. #27
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Sayign he was not in control is not just wrong, but invalidate all the development they made to say "herp derp he was evil by his own not because corruption or outside factors" that they push later
    Except it doesn't. Garrosh was always evil. The corruption just exacerbated the issue.

    says the guy doing mental gymnastics to pretend the devs and canon are wrong, and he is right ~~because he doesn't feel like it~~, truly astounding indeed.
    You're literally using semantics (wrongly) to convince yourself that the previous developers' words weren't retconned to "Garrosh did not resist the old god's influence".
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  8. #28
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arikara View Post
    You accuse me of delusion while high on a delusion of your own weaving, to justify your pre-existing biases. Uh-huh.

    There would have been no war. Certainly that is not up for discussion. To suggest such is patently ridiculous; the Alliance's issue was exactly with the Horde leadership, which is fair given its lack of quality at the time, and the logging operation in Ashenvale. The former solves itself, and the latter may have been addressed with an agreement of permitted logging under the oversight and restoration efforts of the Cenarion Circle—only, that would have been inconvenient narratively, as Warsong Gulch is required to continue to exist purely for game purposes.
    Dear god, you are saying "there would been no war" but there was war already, Varian started - declared - after undercity and was acting upon it since the LK problem was dealt

    Why people refuse to acknowledge things before MOP and pretend that period never exist? the alliance gave two shits about warsong gulch, alliance barely gave shit to night elves in general, Varian was going full force in attacking the horde in the barrens and in durotar, showing no, the problem was never ashenvale.

    Mind you, this happens BEFORE they even knew Garrosh was warchief, they ambushed and captured thrall thinking he was the warchief still and planned to kill him in stormwind on a parade.

    Both points proving the horde leadership and ashevale were not the main issues of the alliance war - that they started - before Garrosh attacking back.

    Your point about the logging under the oversight and restoration of the cenarion circle, would have worked, if the night elves were not like they are, as their problem was not rly the trees, but someone else in their lands. Thrall and Cairne tried all the way to form an agreement, but they didn't want. That is the main reason why night elves joined alliance instead of horde, to drive the horde out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Except it doesn't. Garrosh was always evil. The corruption just exacerbated the issue.
    If he was controlled that take away part of his actions, the blame and his agency, again, ignoring the entire development


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    You're literally using semantics (wrongly) to convince yourself that the previous developers' words weren't retconned to "Garrosh did not resist the old god's influence".
    Nothing was retconed, it was obvious the sha influenced Garry, the devs said so before, it does not change the fact he was not controled, and was using the power like a tool. he was in control, that i the canon you want to ignore for some reason
    Last edited by Syegfryed; 2022-11-23 at 02:55 AM.

  9. #29
    I am Murloc! Maljinwo's Avatar
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    Are we back in 2013?
    It's obvious that Garrosh was a dick and him in charge would probably end up with only orcs on the planet and probably starving since he would run out of people to conquer for food instead of actually building something that isn't war engines
    This world don't give us nothing. It be our lot to suffer... and our duty to fight back.

  10. #30
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    If he was controlled that take away part of his actions, the blame and his agency, again, ignoring the entire development
    No, not really. Because he willingly took that corruption, even after repeatedly told by everyone about the dangers of the Sha.

    Nothing was retconed, it was obvious the sha influenced Garry, the devs said so before, it does not change the fact he was not controled, and was using the power like a tool. he was in control, that i the canon you want to ignore for some reason
    If he was being influenced by the old god, then he wasn't in control.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
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    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  11. #31
    Even if Garrosh had prevailed over the heart of Y'shaarj, he would have failed. There's few that could do it in any way. But okay, let's say that Ethereal that helped Alleria master the void, had come to help Garrosh instead, successfully making Void Orcs instead of Void Elves?

    The strength of the World, and of the Horde, lies in different perspectives, races, skills and ways, teaming up for a common goal. That's the whole theme of Azeroth. (Well, that and betrayal by one of your own.) The point is, Garrosh is just about making his loyal orcs stronger than everyone else. For the rest it's serve or be crushed beneath his boot. He never understood the strength that lies in unity or diversity. Nor does he really listen to any council, change his mind, or acknowledge mistakes.

    Garrosh is too foolish and proud to create an Azeroth that could have won against the Burning Legion. He's certainly cunning, but can you see him cooperating with the Illidari and their fel? Or the Draenei of the Army of the Light? Or heck, even the Kirin Tor? He'd have killed many characters this world needed. And enslaved or dismissed others.

    I don't even want to know what would have happened had he lived long enough to discover Domination Magic and Zereth Mortis. Probably join the Jailer, then backstab him once he got what he wanted. Make his Orcish Horde into the next big Cosmic Evil to conquer the universe.

  12. #32
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    No, not really. Because he willingly took that corruption, even after repeatedly told by everyone about the dangers of the Sha.
    If he was controlled, means he was not willingly, and didn't do anything thereafter winkingly, invalidating everything that happens, not because he did because he wan, but because he was controlled. Which is in fact wrong, cause he was in control, and chose to do everything.


    If he was being influenced by the old god, then he wasn't in control.
    No, being influenced and controlled are different, you can be influenced by movies, books, your parents and your environment, but you are not controlled by then

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caerule View Post
    Even if Garrosh had prevailed over the heart of Y'shaarj, he would have failed. There's few that could do it in any way. But okay, let's say that Ethereal that helped Alleria master the void, had come to help Garrosh instead, successfully making Void Orcs instead of Void Elves?
    Thats a different case, cause raw void is one thing, the heart of an old god is another.

    Eventually the heart and ysharjj itself would take over him and the orcs, it's inevitable, just like it did to cho'gall.

    The point is, Garrosh is just about making his loyal orcs stronger than everyone else. For the rest it's serve or be crushed beneath his boot. He never understood the strength that lies in unity or diversity. Nor does he really listen to any council, change his mind, or acknowledge mistakes.
    Garrosh wanted blindly loyalty above all else, he understood strength lies on diversity, this why he wanted to bring different races and monsters under him.

    But, he slowly descent into a tyrant wasn't overnight, it was after he saw the other races didn't had the same commitment in the war as he and the orcs did, and how poor everything was handled by the leaders, no shock how he only our version of him was a "failure" from countless timelines.

    I don't even want to know what would have happened had he lived long enough to discover Domination Magic and Zereth Mortis. Probably join the Jailer, then backstab him once he got what he wanted. Make his Orcish Horde into the next big Cosmic Evil to conquer the universe.
    That would be funny though, going full circle to warhammer

  13. #33
    Garrosh winning at SoO means that Wrathion doesn't have to traffic him back in time, which means no WoD. No WoD means no Gul'dan, which means no Legion. No Legion means no sword, which means no BFA. No BFA means no Mists repeat or mass casualty, which means no SL. Truly a paradise.

    But seriously, Garrosh winning at SoO doesn't really mean that he can then conquer the whole of the world, since while he'd have the bulk of the orcish population he'd still sustain casualties in said siege and he'd then have to wage war against everyone. While the Alliance is likely banged up enough that he could conceivably continue with the war, especially given their leadership'd have been killed in a successful SoO he'd have to rely almost exclusively on the Heart, especially if the big other powers like the Ulduar Keepers or the Dragons came in. We can't really take his vision of Stormwind at the end as depicting the actual likely course of events unless of course we consider it a form of reality warping and he uses the heart to literally manifest that scenario. That said, if we do assume he takes over the mortal races and that he makes up the difference by also bringing in more mantid for example, then the likeliest thing to happen is that his Horde, whether it's rule by a vestigial orcish minority over various monsters or if by that point it would have openly transformed into Y'shaarj's empire would have to contend with the Naga. It'd essentially turn into a reprise of the Black Empire wars, except limited to N'zoth and Y'shaarj, with N'zoth favoured to win.

    You also have the other dark horse of Bolvar's Scourge, as seeing the world he's supposed to be watching over have everyone die'd either leave him open to being taken over by the Bald Man or just have him take power himself and have the Scourge join the aforementioned slugfest.

    In addition, not that Garrosh or anyone else had any way of knowing this, but Sarg would still have caught the titans and be turning them into his Dark Pantheon, so while there would be no invasion right away, said Pantheon would eventually reach Azeroth and kill everyone with no means of gaining info on this or available counterplay given that the people involved are all the size of a planet.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2022-11-23 at 07:31 AM.
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  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Narwhalosh Whalescream View Post
    Sure every other race and culture gets wiped out
    Glancing over the fact that a dozen cultures and their people are wiped out pretty quick, yeah I would consider this bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Narwhalosh Whalescream View Post
    but consider this in the grand scheme of things if Garrosh remains in control of the sha then it means that Azeroth will recover in time and thus be able to mount a defence against old gods and burning legion
    The Orcs have already succumbed to the Legion on 3 different occasions. Once on old Draenor, once on Azeroth, once on new Draenor. What makes you think this time it will be any different? Orcs are very vulnerable to corruption because of their constant strife for strength and power and their complete disregard for other lifes.

    Oh and as others pointed out already, you seem to have forgotten that Garrosh was literally working with the Old Gods. The Heart Y'sharaaj, that created the Sha is what gave him his power. So him winning means the Old Gods winning.


    Quote Originally Posted by Narwhalosh Whalescream View Post
    alike with the high birth rate of the orcs it means that both kalimdor and the eastern kingdom will be colonized by orcs in no time at all and perhaps even northrend too. Coupled with a influx of orcs from alternate draenor getting invited it means they'd truly have an unstoppable army against cosmic threats. I assume this is what wrathion envisioned.
    Just think back to Draenor. The "unstoppable" army of Orcs there managed to destroy their own planet and their squabbling among themselves ended in total disaster.

    Apart from all this, Orcs barely have a culture to speak of. They create nothing, no writing, no art, no poetry, only weapons and war. An Azeroth overrun by them would not be a place worth living in, so even if they could hold back the Legion and other threats, what would be the point? It would only end in the Orcs invading other planets again, because they have bled Azeroth dry of resources.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Candy Cough View Post
    Sha corrupts everyone, not just orcs as it did
    Okay? This isn't relevant to anything I said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Can't detect a lil joke right?, and he didn't got nuked by the janitor, he nuked himself
    With you, about Garrosh, it's hard to distinguish a joke from a real praise.

    Not in this case, no, the context is different, and the meanings are different
    Elaborate please.

    the fact is that Garry was not controlled
    And yet he was rambling about what the vision showed him and he sincerely listened to the visions and what they showed him.

    and was using the power as a tool
    This doesn't mean anything, Deathwing was also using the powers of the Void as his tools, he was corrupted nonetheless.

  16. #36
    Elemental Lord sam86's Avatar
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    Yes...
    I hate Garrosh (But they fixed him perfectly in WoD Thrall vs Garrosh video imo), for me my only problem was fight against him with alliance, if I can choose, i'd side with him against alliance, then after we win against our immortal enemies, we settle our inner dispute
    Well MoP story had many flaws, but I still love its raids, and class gameplay was amazing too
    tldr: Garrosh was pushed heavily as wow hitler, yes his win will be bad for Azeroth 100%
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  17. #37
    Herald of the Titans Kilpi's Avatar
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    Uuuh, this is a bait if I've ever seen one. Having a wager how long it takes for someone to draw Hitler card?

  18. #38
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Elaborate please.
    Garrosh was not controlled by it and used the heart as tool, plain and simple, it have nothing o do with "defying the void whispers" he just resist the control

    And yet he was rambling about what the vision showed him and he sincerely listened to the visions and what they showed him.
    Thats why he didn't "defy it" he saw the visions and chose, as his own free will, to chase it, not being controlled by it

    This doesn't mean anything, Deathwing was also using the powers of the Void as his tools, he was corrupted nonetheless.
    Eventually he has, eventually it would take Garry too, but it did not.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    you do know the sha is the old gods right?

    He had joined the old gods and lost himself to that corruption, he was no longer in total control of himself by the end.

    you have to be fucking with us.

    also he would not have been able to go to alternate draenor.. that was not his idea, it was wrathions. and wrathion would not want to work with a guy still corrupted by the old gods to... stop the old gods and burning legion...
    This.
    The whole thing of Garrosh was that in spite of his effort to not become like his father, he still did and did so worse.

    When he announced he had no regrets in Shadowlands i sort of assumed even he excluded the stuff he did while under the ifluence if not outright control of the old god heart that corrupted him into a hulking multi-eyed monstrosity for an oddly temporary amount of time.
    If the heart hadn't been the end of Y'shaarj he would've been worse off than both Cho'gall and Azshara, honestly i think his body and soul would've just served as a sort of seeding bed for Y'shaarj to start his regeneration.
    Last edited by loras; 2022-11-23 at 11:45 AM.
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  20. #40
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    If he was controlled, means he was not willingly, and didn't do anything thereafter winkingly, invalidating everything that happens, not because he did because he wan, but because he was controlled. Which is in fact wrong, cause he was in control, and chose to do everything.
    No. No, it doesn't invalidate anything at all. Because, again, Garrosh willingly took that corruption, knowing full well what it does to a person, because he wanted power and didn't care what happens to the others as long as he got more power. He wasn't influenced or controlled by the old gods at all until he drank in Y'shaarj's corruption from the heart.

    Garrosh is no Arthas.

    No, being influenced and controlled are different, you can be influenced by movies, books, your parents and your environment, but you are not controlled by then
    To influence:
    "If you influence someone, you use your power to make them agree with you or do what you want."
    To control:
    "If you have control of something or someone, you are able to make them do what you want them to do."

    Seems like synonyms to me. If you are influenced by something/someone, then you are being controlled by them because your actions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Garrosh winning at SoO means that Wrathion doesn't have to traffic him back in time, which means no WoD. No WoD means no Gul'dan, which means no Legion. No Legion means no sword, which means no BFA. No BFA means no Mists repeat or mass casualty, which means no SL. Truly a paradise.
    Since you're talking about lore progression, Shadowlands would've happened regardless because the retconned lore says the Jailer's plan has been ongoing for eons, and Sylvanas was his pawn since she jumped off Icecrown back in Wrath, I believe. On that same token, BfA might have still happened, as I'm sure Sylvanas would find a different way and/or reason to get the Alliance and the Horde to be at each other's throats again.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

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