How is Dragonflight solving shortage of tanks and healers problem?

[Nymrohd]

i'm sorry but how can you mess up the new uldaman ? its linear except for the dwarf bosses, the map is easy to follow

Yeah the route in Uldaman is perfectly clear. If you want to complain about that in DF, there are far worse offenders (Nokhud, Brackenhide, Vault, Academy). Uldaman probably has the cleanest route from the new dungeons.

[sponge5307]

i'm sorry but how can you mess up the new uldaman ? its linear except for the dwarf bosses, the map is easy to follow

Yeah the route in Uldaman is perfectly clear. If you want to complain about that in DF, there are far worse offenders (Nokhud, Brackenhide, Vault, Academy). Uldaman probably has the cleanest route from the new dungeons.

I took a wrong turn to the 1st boss i think coz I was busy grabbing aggro to the mobs (got to love envokers Line AoE that just pull more mobs)

[Nymrohd]

I took a wrong turn to the 1st boss i think coz I was busy grabbing aggro to the mobs (got to love envokers Line AoE that just pull more mobs)

I mean sure it can happen but this will be a very easy route to learn compared to others.

[Lordofbelbol]

I mean sure it can happen but this will be a very easy route to learn compared to others.

sounds to me he just want to show people that evokers are stupid or watever

[sponge5307]

But they aren't powerless. The can make changes that make tanking m+ as a pug less dreadful. They just choose not to because all they really care about is the MDI, which is a dying event.

Is takes a hard line. Anyone saying anything that's considered harassment gets a warning. Do it again 8-day ban, then a 33-day ban, and six mo ban. But they won't since that requires them to hire in person GM to monitor the game and look at the logs for reports manually

[Vampyrr]

I love tanking. It requires vastly more effort and attention than dpsing.

I can waltz into a raid, 1/2 pay attention, and do fine as a DPS. But as a tank I have to be on. I have to be fully present and not distracted. I have to know the fights well. I can't just "DBM will tell me" through the evening and expect to do OK, especially in late Heroic or any Mythic progression.

This is true for Healers as well. DPS is just less punishing. That's it. I love that about tanking. It's why I want to tank. But it's why a lot of people don't want to tank.

Hrm always found it the opposite. Have to pay way more attention as DPS at least as melee as the game is very unfriendly to them. Tank stuff is mostly about position and timers for raiding. You know when things are coming so plan for it. DPS get the RNG abilities so have to be on point for them.

[Tyris Flare]

The problem is that every spell that's not interrupted hits the tank, so the the dps don't even realize that the tank is dying because they are failing to interrupt. So they complain about a soft tank, and don't even really know what happened.

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That's not true at all lol. Honesty if spells only hit the tank it would barely matter since they are almost unkillable outside of keys way beyond those that award loot.

The dangerous spells are 9/10 ones that either delete the rest of the group, heal mobs, or fear. Think of stuff like bone spike in ToP, fear guys/stun guys/frostbolts in NekWak, etc.

[Thirtyrock]

Hrm always found it the opposite. Have to pay way more attention as DPS at least as melee as the game is very unfriendly to them. Tank stuff is mostly about position and timers for raiding. You know when things are coming so plan for it. DPS get the RNG abilities so have to be on point for them.

I think the difficulty of content matters here.

I've tanked and DPS'd mythic raids. I tanked and dps'd heroic raids before mythic was a thing.

If you're not in the top tier of difficulty, I find tanking to be more difficult. At the very top tier, they're both equally demanding. This is my personal experience. I can half-ass dps up to end bosses on Heroic, without causing wipes, all I need to do is listen to DBM and know my rotation, for the most part.

As a tank, that just isn't the case. There are far more ways to insta-wipe a raid as a tank than as a DPS, in most encounters. Even just by personal screw ups. If I die as a DPS I might get rezzed or we might save the brez for someone else. If I die as a tank we wipe or we burn a rez, period. Very rarely during progression can you afford to leave a tank dead. Obviously, in Mythic progression, where DPS timers and healer mana is tight, a single dps dying can cause a wipe. But that's almost ALWAYS true of tanks and/or healers in a way that just isn't true for DPS players except in the hardest of content.

I do find melee dps more challenging, in general, than ranged DPS, for the reasons you mentioned. But the rotations tend to be more forgiving, so there's a balance.

I'm not one of those tanks who think "dps is just super easy and anyone who says otherwise is bad". Not at all, dps is challenging, especially at the highest levels of play. I think at lower levels of play Tanking and Healing are MORE challenging and at the highest levels they are all three equally challenging.

[Sansnom]

It isn't completely out of their hand. They can make healing and tanking more approachable.

I think it is. For the simple reason that Blizzard cannot tell or enforce people to play "nice" with others.

Tanking and healing is bit more challenging but I don't think that is what putting people off. It is the response they receive for mistakes. People are people and mistakes can happen. Yet they expect tanks and healer to perform their role to 100% each time.

People are here to play a game. To have fun. Not to be abused when they make a mistakes. Why should they? Do guilds have issue forming groups for raids or dungeons? Probably not as much as PUGs because that kind of abusive behavior is less likely between guide members than with complete strangers.

[Gestopft]

But they aren't powerless. The can make changes that make tanking m+ as a pug less dreadful. They just choose not to because all they really care about is the MDI, which is a dying event.

A lot of those changes, however, could negatively affect the experience of the people that already enjoy tanking.

[BraveNewWorld]

Blizzard has acknowledged in the past, even during the Monk development, that it is completely impossible on their end to solve the tank and healer problem. Additional loot bags for completing dungeons still wasn't the ultimate solution. Their hands are tied, its entirely up to the community.

They are certainly not helping their case in DF with the new dungeons. Every mob has their own mechanic and a lot of them have stuff that needs to be interrupted. In most pugs, they won't be, and healing became MUCH harder in DF with the 40% damage / hp buff. Can guarantee that alone will make some healers just don't want to heal anymore.

[Peliankka]

I have only tanked uldaman at lvl 60 but compared to many other dungeons I love it simply because the layout is simple, there is not much choosing in what to pull and you dont have to do gimpy skipping tactics on trash.

What I hate as a tank is how much knowledge you must have about what to pull because dungeons have so much extra trash that can be skipped instead of just kill 90% of you are going to be fine. So these open layout dungeons are really ruining it. No one likes to spend hours to research what you are even supposed to pull in the first place.

Problem is not difficult mobs and millions of mechanics, just that you have to research so much what to pull in the first place.

So reduce the number of mobs so you can pretty much just kill everything without having to skip so much trash. You can add extra mobs after 16+ if that brings more value but you shouldn't be required to do that much research about pulls before that. Mythic+ should be difficult because the content is difficult, not because you have to play tetris and sudoku for 1 hour before going in.

[Lolites]

But they aren't powerless. The can make changes that make tanking m+ as a pug less dreadful. They just choose not to because all they really care about is the MDI, which is a dying event.

many people sait that, yet failed to say even ONE improvement that would actualy help and wouldnt make m+ worse...

[TickerDS]

Was a miss not to make a Tank spec part of the new class. Frankly every new class should have a tank spec. Should always make the shiny new toy be a tank spec - as it could motivate people to play it who were not tanks.

The other, more unpopular concept is the actual answer -- simplify tanking.

Some elements of tanking have gotten too complex for players to semi occasionally want to tank. It is basically main tanks or bust for tanks. The game is too unforgiving to those who don't know encounters, combine that with a player base that is equally unforgiving..... and I am not talking about at high end M+ or Mythic Raiding levels.

And what do I mean about simplifying tanking? Make the game less twitch/reaction time dependent. To a lesser extend healing is in the same boat, but the whole game has seen a ramp up in complexity of fights and the need to instantly react to xyz along with one-shot mechanics that don't just kill one person, but often times mean a group can't continue because that one person is dead.

Also, make tanking more about survivability and less about needing/doing dps and spot/situationally healing others. Tanks block, avoid, parry. They don't climb dps meters to help beat enrage timers or skip/push mechanics. Simplify the role and responsibility - you gear to take less damage/live longer - and then focus on positioning. Don't worry about damage done or keeping others alive with heals. --- at non-top end levels.

Its a balance, and a hard one at that, but if rewards are not working you need to make the role less stressful for the casual player to pick up and go with it at the lower and middle tier difficulty levels.

[huth]

Was a miss not to make a Tank spec part of the new class. Frankly every new class should have a tank spec. Should always make the shiny new toy be a tank spec - as it could motivate people to play it who were not tanks.

That didn't work the last 3 times, why do you think it would now?

many people sait that, yet failed to say even ONE improvement that would actualy help and wouldnt make m+ worse...

And when they do, it's just "make M+ easier". Which is kinda missing the point.

[Nymrohd]

And when they do, it's just "make M+ easier". Which is kinda missing the point.

The main suggestion is to make routes easier. That does not make M+ easier. You still have to kill the same mobs, you will still have to make larger pulls to manage things in time at higher keys. You can keep things like patrols. But you are removing a major source of stress for tanks and the number one complaint that happens in M+ groups.

[huth]

The main suggestion is to make routes easier. That does not make M+ easier. You still have to kill the same mobs, you will still have to make larger pulls to manage things in time at higher keys. You can keep things like patrols. But you are removing a major source of stress for tanks and the number one complaint that happens in M+ groups.

Yes, it does make M+ easier. It reduces the overall potential for things to go wrong. And the main problem is people pushing all the responsibility on the tank, which isn't solved in any way by this.

Besides, there's a limit to how much you can simplify them before it's just a long tunnel with all groups required.

[Nymrohd]

Yes, it does make M+ easier. It reduces the overall potential for things to go wrong. And the main problem is people pushing all the responsibility on the tank, which isn't solved in any way by this.

Besides, there's a limit to how much you can simplify them before it's just a long tunnel with all groups required.

Routing is something mostly decided OUTSIDE actual gameplay time while setting up addons. It can be gameplay for organized groups of friends who share different routes and decided on something, it's not really gameplay for anyone else and it is only ADDON gameplay; the calculations are just not something you can do halfway through the run with the timer pressing you.
It is also a major source of conflict in M+ groups. No one said you need to solve ALL the issues for the tanks. But you can solve some.

The second part of your argument is just a strawman.

[huth]

Routing is something mostly decided OUTSIDE actual gameplay time while setting up addons. It can be gameplay for organized groups of friends who share different routes and decided on something, it's not really gameplay for anyone else and it is only ADDON gameplay; the calculations are just not something you can do halfway through the run with the timer pressing you.
It is also a major source of conflict in M+ groups. No one said you need to solve ALL the issues for the tanks. But you can solve some.

The second part of your argument is just a strawman.

Planning and execution are seperate steps, but both are needed.

[Tyris Flare]

Affix rotation leaked, hope all the tanks enjoy Fort Raging on week 1 where you'll instantly get deleted in your m0 gear