Would Garrosh winning really be that bad?

[Super Dickmann]

Since you're talking about lore progression, Shadowlands would've happened regardless because the retconned lore says the Jailer's plan has been ongoing for eons, and Sylvanas was his pawn since she jumped off Icecrown back in Wrath, I believe. On that same token, BfA might have still happened, as I'm sure Sylvanas would find a different way and/or reason to get the Alliance and the Horde to be at each other's throats again.

That it's ongoing means fuck all for its success. Post-SL retcons the Jailer's failed with 3 (three) LKs, in Ner'zhul, Arthas and Bolvar, failing to meaningfully influence any of them. It's why he bothers with Sylvanas in the first place. She'd be dead in Orgrimmar in this scenario and all the competing forces involved subsist on souls and so don't allow anyone to go to hell. The Legion being able to complete its Dark Pantheon plan means Sargeras just claims Azeroth on his own, foiling the Bald Man's plan even if the Dreadlords still contrive a scenario to get Argus killed. The Bald Man's plan is impossible in the event of either a Legion or Old God win prior.

[Syegfryed]

No. No, it doesn't invalidate anything at all. Because, again, Garrosh willingly took that corruption, knowing full well what it does to a person, because he wanted power and didn't care what happens to the others as long as he got more power. He wasn't influenced or controlled by the old gods at all until he drank in Y'shaarj's corruption from the heart.

Willingly taking the corruption still means anything that happens thereafter is not YOU DOING IT but someone else controlling you, no matter how you spin this.

And if you say the influence is control, it goes far back when he discovers the heart, and everything after that it's not him doing it, but the heart, which is again, bullshit.

To influence:
Seems like synonyms to me. If you are influenced by something/someone, then you are being controlled by them because your actions.

Jesus, i always forget how you like to nitpick and ignore anything else

Trying to bend the usage of a word just because they happen to be used as synonyms does not change the meaning of the word

You even went as far to ignore the very first meaning of the link you provide yourself

Influence is the power to make other people agree with your opinions or do what you want.

no control, not forcing

Again, people can be influenced but not controlled, authors have influence of other works, music take influence of and on other music, you want to say they are being controlled is bogus

Since you're talking about lore progression, Shadowlands would've happened regardless because the retconned lore says the Jailer's plan has been ongoing for eons, and Sylvanas was his pawn since she jumped off Icecrown back in Wrath, I believe. On that same token, BfA might have still happened, as I'm sure Sylvanas would find a different way and/or reason to get the Alliance and the Horde to be at each other's throats again.

And how Janitor plans would have happened with Sylvnas head on a spike? Because she was going down, he hated her, and even if not, Garry would not listen to anything she says.

Plus, people said it was Argus soul that broke the arbiter, without Legion that does not happen.

[Shadowferal]

Willingly taking the corruption still means anything that happens thereafter is not YOU DOING IT but someone else controlling you, no matter how you spin this.

I disagree.
If a person goes into a bar knowing he'll get drunk he's still responsible for what happens later despite being "under the influence."

[Syegfryed]

I disagree.
If a person goes into a bar knowing he'll get drunk he's still responsible for what happens later despite being "under the influence."

Right, not the case here, if a person sells his soul and a demon take control of his body is not him doing the actions, even if he is as much to blame.

That is exactly the plot of Grom second corruption, and its meaningless and nonsense to say it happen again here.

[Ielenia]

Willingly taking the corruption still means anything that happens thereafter is not YOU DOING IT but someone else controlling you, no matter how you spin this.

No, it still makes you fully responsible if you knew what would happen if you did that. Garrosh was keenly aware of the consequences that would befall him if he did that, and he did it anyways.

And if you say the influence is control, it goes far back when he discovers the heart, and everything after that it's not him doing it, but the heart,

No, it's not.

Jesus, i always forget how you like to nitpick and ignore anything else

You're the one playing semantics, here.

[Shadowferal]

Right, not the case here, if a person sells his soul and a demon take control of his body is not him doing the actions, even if he is as much to blame.

But he knew what he was getting involved with..

[loras]

But he knew what he was getting involved with..

The point of demon / old god corruption is that not only do they really not know, they cannot know; the counterparty is literally an ageless immortal with such vastly greater capacities as to be unfathomable.

Doesn't mesh too well with the gameplay of us farming them, but yeah.

[Shadowferal]

The point of demon / old god corruption is that not only do they really not know, they cannot know; the counterparty is literally an ageless immortal with such vastly greater capacities as to be unfathomable. .

That just brings up a point that Garrosh's ego was in play with an arrogant presumption that he could control what he had to deal with.

[Garymorilix]

Garrosh was confirmed not to be old-god corrupted, so this whole discussion is pointless.
At this point if you are arguing this fact you are making up head-canon. You might not like this but this is canon.

As for in-universe: The void is not impossible to resist. It takes willpower. We have a whole race of elves who are constantly being whispered to even.

Garrosh was an individual with extremely potent willpower.
As we can see he not only resisted old-god corruption BUT even kept it together after a very long time of torture in Torghast.
His pride and rage kept him sane basically.

[Jaggler]

yeah, i would consider Sha/Old-God-empowered Orc Hitler to be a bad thing

[Syegfryed]

No, it still makes you fully responsible if you knew what would happen if you did that. Garrosh was keenly aware of the consequences that would befall him if he did that, and he did it anyways.

Yet, it would not still be him, because he was controlled, regardless if he is to blame the same.

No, it's not.

No its no,t because its all bs and you are wrong bout it.

You're the one playing semantics, here.

Youa re the one ignoring canon and word of god

Garrosh was not controlled or being controlled, period

- - - Updated - - -

But he knew what he was getting involved with..

Yes, still doesn't change the fact he was not corrupted or controlled by it.

you talk about someone going to drive drunk, Garrosh case would be drinking and fully aware of his own mind, not affected by the alcohol, running trough people, because its what he wanted to do.

[loras]

That just brings up a point that Garrosh's ego was in play with an arrogant presumption that he could control what he had to deal with.

Oh definitely, he was in way over his head and the venthyr were completely right to toss his ass in the maw just for that alone.

- - - Updated - - -

Garrosh was confirmed not to be old-god corrupted, so this whole discussion is pointless.
At this point if you are arguing this fact you are making up head-canon. You might not like this but this is canon.

As for in-universe: The void is not impossible to resist. It takes willpower. We have a whole race of elves who are constantly being whispered to even.

Garrosh was an individual with extremely potent willpower.
As we can see he not only resisted old-god corruption BUT even kept it together after a very long time of torture in Torghast.
His pride and rage kept him sane basically.

For some definition of "sane".
Not an invalid point though.

Personally i liked his character partially for that reason; he shows that there is the potential for good in evil, even if it ultimately does not help him.

[Auburst]

100% the True Horde is a beautiful idea.

[Ielenia]

Yet, it would not still be him, because he was controlled, regardless if he is to blame the same.

It doesn't matter, though. Because even without the heart of Y'shaarj, Garrosh already had committed plenty of atrocities.

Youa re the one ignoring canon and word of god

"Word of god" that was then supplanted by newer "word of god". The most recent information was that Alleria was the first mortal to defy the whispers of the old gods. Therefore... Garrosh didn't.

[Syegfryed]

It doesn't matter, though. Because even without the heart of Y'shaarj, Garrosh already had committed plenty of atrocities.

It does matter because he would no be accountable for the ones he did when he was controlled, you are trying to say is fine to put the blame of something into someone just because they did similar

No, he was fully aware, conscious and not controlled, he did because he wanted to,

"Word of god" that was then supplanted by newer "word of god". The most recent information was that Alleria was the first mortal to defy the whispers of the old gods. Therefore... Garrosh didn't.

Nothing is supplanted, nothing is retconed, Alleria 'defying the whispers of the void, does not supplant Garrosh not being controlled or corrupted by the heart

No matter how you scream and cry about it, it did not change yet, regardless of your feelings towards it

[Aucald]

Garrosh was confirmed not to be old-god corrupted, so this whole discussion is pointless.
At this point if you are arguing this fact you are making up head-canon. You might not like this but this is canon.

As for in-universe: The void is not impossible to resist. It takes willpower. We have a whole race of elves who are constantly being whispered to even.

Garrosh was an individual with extremely potent willpower.
As we can see he not only resisted old-god corruption BUT even kept it together after a very long time of torture in Torghast.
His pride and rage kept him sane basically.

Canon is that Garrosh wasn't corrupted by the Old Gods, with the implication being that he hadn't become their slave in the same way entities like Gho'gall, Loken, the corrupted Ra, or Deathwing had. He was using the power of Y'Shaarj without necessarily falling victim to their direct control. This isn't to say he hadn't been unhinged by their influence, though; nor does it imply he was in his right mind during the encounter in SoO - given his ranting and his insane rambling about rivers of blood and mountains of skulls, it's very obvious something was very wrong with him compared to his prior composure.

I personally think Garrosh was always kind of unhinged, he just hid it well using considerable bluster and bravado. Inside, he was still the sad little boy whose father had abandoned him and left him to die of the Red Pox in Nagrand - the father who thought him useless and weak, too disgusted by said weakness to bother with him again. Garrosh's whole character was trying to overcome his daddy issues and essentially failing, his perceived abandonment by Thrall (a surrogate father figure) after being left in yet another role he was unprepared to take on serving as the capstone for his later instability. Y'Shaarj's consciousness within the Heart seized on this expertly and manipulated his emotions to a fever pitch, appealing to his considerable pride and driving him further and further into excess and ultimately into tapping into and using Y'Shaarj's power.

To put it succinctly, Y'Shaarj didn't pointedly corrupt Garrosh because it was ultimately unnecessary - Garrosh was already in a prime place to be manipulated and coerced into doing what Y'Shaarj wanted without such external interference. What Y'Shaarj did was take Garrosh's preexisting instability and nascent insanity and make it worse - which Garrosh then carried forward in his actions in WoD (where he considered himself comparable to the Lich King), and finally into Shadowlands and Torghast. His last gasp as an individual was an abject denial of his own crimes, for which he had already been consigned to Revendreth, and the prideful mutual kill of himself and Soulrender Dormazain. One could almost call this going out in something of a blaze of glory if it weren't for the action being entirely selfish and self-aggrandizing as opposed to glorious.

[Houle]

Garrosh was confirmed not to be old-god corrupted, so this whole discussion is pointless.
At this point if you are arguing this fact you are making up head-canon. You might not like this but this is canon.

As for in-universe: The void is not impossible to resist. It takes willpower. We have a whole race of elves who are constantly being whispered to even.

Garrosh was an individual with extremely potent willpower.
As we can see he not only resisted old-god corruption BUT even kept it together after a very long time of torture in Torghast.
His pride and rage kept him sane basically.

This is basically the end of that discussion.
Everyone saying he was under the old gods control, and not himself anymore, is fully ignoring what the devs themselves stated multiple times as fact, whenever they were aske about it.
They said Garrosh was 100% in control the entire time. And until they come out and directly say he WASNT in control, thats the latest info we have about it, and therefore canon. He used the heart for what HE wanted. Would he eventually fall to its corruption? Possibly, but thats just speculation. What we saw Garrosh doing with the heart was all himself. Thats a simple fact, and everything else is headcanon, nothing more.
How did he do it? Probably just pure willpower. He will was also strong enough to resist torture in both Revendreth and the Maw itself later on. Both of which were specifically meant to break and subdue. As the dude said, he submits and answers to no one. He does what he wants. Thats his entire thing.
At most, the heart/sha just worsened his negative traits and rage a bit. Which is why hes screaming about skulls and blood during his fight. But one also has to remember that by the time of that fight, his horde was pretty much done for, and it was his last stand. Pretty reasonable he wasnt exactly calm and normal there.

[Ielenia]

It does matter because he would no be accountable for the ones he did when he was controlled, you are trying to say is fine to put the blame of something into someone just because they did similar

No, he would still be held accountable, for the simple reason that Garrosh was not only aware of what the Sha does to someone, mind and body, he willingly and eagerly took the corruption into himself. He wasn't 'tricked' into getting corrupted like Arthas, or 'forced' to get the corruption to fight a stronger foe, like Illidan. The guy was just power-hungry, and didn't care about the costs to get more power.

Nothing is supplanted, nothing is retconed, Alleria 'defying the whispers of the void, does not supplant Garrosh not being controlled or corrupted by the heart

Yes. Yes, it does. Because if Alleria is the first mortal, then that means Garrosh, who is also a mortal, was not able to resist the corruption of the old gods. This isn't about 'feelings', this is about facts.

No matter how you scream and cry about it.

[Syegfryed]

No, he would still be held accountable, for the simple reason that Garrosh was not only aware of what the Sha does to someone, mind and body, he willingly and eagerly took the corruption into himself. He wasn't 'tricked' into getting corrupted like Arthas, or 'forced' to get the corruption to fight a stronger foe, like Illidan. The guy was just power-hungry, and didn't care about the costs to get more power.

Still is not him doing, because he ws controlled

Yes. Yes, it does. Because if Alleria is the first mortal, then that means Garrosh, who is also a mortal, was not able to resist the corruption of the old gods. This isn't about 'feelings', this is about facts.

No matter how you scream and cry about it.

once again, you can try to wit ll you want, alleria being the first to defy the whispers doesn't mean Garry was controlled, its bogus twisting the events and ignoring canon because you don't like it, no wonder only you and Alleria number 1 fan think that

[Ielenia]

Still is not him doing, because he ws controlled

Again: irrelevant. It's irrelevant because, as I pointed out numerous times already, Garrosh willingly and eagerly drank the power that came from the old god Y'shaarj fully aware of the corruption it brings.