How can we forgive Wrathion

[Le Conceptuel]

Sabellian over him at any time.

Given that Sabellian is distinct from Wrathion on account of not being a misguided idiot, I'm definitely leaning towards him.

[Arlette]

Are we gonna glance over the genocide of Teldrassil for the express purpose of using civiian corpses as weapons for the Mawsworn?

No not at all but Sylvanas gets her own category because not only is she the worst of the worst, her inclusion kind of destroys the entire mechanisms of the Warcraft IP so she's in her own category.

Everybody is 2nd to Sylvanas.

[Le Conceptuel]

Which is more or less on Wrathion, not you. Wrathion can try to ingratiate himself to you all he likes, but the ultimate decision is still yours, both on a Watsonian and Doylist level.

Which is good characterization, too. Wrathion deserves a good deal of credit on account of just having a personality, which in itself is a breath of fresh air after Shadowlands.

[Amnaught]

No not at all but Sylvanas gets her own category because not only is she the worst of the worst, her inclusion kind of destroys the entire mechanisms of the Warcraft IP so she's in her own category.

Everybody is 2nd to Sylvanas.

No no, you misunderstand my point, with the context of "player characters" as the worst of the worst.

Sylvanas didn't physically fire the catapults.

[Nymrohd]

No no, you misunderstand my point, with the context of "player characters" as the worst of the worst.

Sylvanas didn't physically fire the catapults.

Pretty much. The vast majority of the Horde supported Sylvanas till the end.

[OwenBurton]

Pretty much. The vast majority of the Horde supported Sylvanas till the end.

I don't know if the vast majority did, or simply a certain segment who was very vocal (although, yes, the official forums and social media were very pro-Sylvanas). There were some people who were very pro-Saurfang though, and others who hated both the Alliance and Sylvanas at the same time. The only character that people seemed to really hate, most Horde and even some Alliance, was a certain tauren character.
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...aine-Bloodhoof

Someone mentioned on the forums, when this issue was broached (some players were kind of perturbed, I recall), that people shouldn't take things so seriously, that it was just a fictional game...and thus players were free to support whatever they wanted.
https://www.eurogamer.net/sylvanas-j...risis#comments

[Le Conceptuel]

I don't know if the vast majority did, or simply a certain segment who was very vocal (although, yes, the official forums and social media were very pro-Sylvanas). There were some people who were very pro-Saurfang though, and others who hated both the Alliance and Sylvanas at the same time. The only character that people seemed to really hate, most Horde and even some Alliance, was a certain tauren character.

Honestly, that poll only really shows a veeeeeery slight plurality in favor of combined votes against Baine relative to combined votes against him. It seems more like he's divisive than hated.

[Aucald]

Given that Sabellian is distinct from Wrathion on account of not being a misguided idiot, I'm definitely leaning towards him.

My main issue with Sabellian is that I'm not sure if I trust him in terms of Old God corruption. He can pretend to be the savior of his flight all day long, but if he still bears the corruption then as soon as he becomes an Aspect he'll likely go mad with power and we'll have another Deathwing we have to put down. Wrathion has a bad track record, but you can at least trust him to do what he thinks is best for Azeroth - except occasionally what he thinks is best leads to world war and mass casualties. Really a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" type of scenario all around.

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Which is good characterization, too. Wrathion deserves a good deal of credit on account of just having a personality, which in itself is a breath of fresh air after Shadowlands.

Wrathion always had a personality, I think - he started off as an arrogant little know-it-all, then shaded into a more responsible young adult with a lot of ambition but more self-awareness. Sabellian, too, has a lot of personality albeit of the aloof, gruff, and distant variety.

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I don't know if the vast majority did, or simply a certain segment who was very vocal (although, yes, the official forums and social media were very pro-Sylvanas). There were some people who were very pro-Saurfang though, and others who hated both the Alliance and Sylvanas at the same time. The only character that people seemed to really hate, most Horde and even some Alliance, was a certain tauren character.
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...aine-Bloodhoof

Someone mentioned on the forums, when this issue was broached (some players were kind of perturbed, I recall), that people shouldn't take things so seriously, that it was just a fictional game...and thus players were free to support whatever they wanted.
https://www.eurogamer.net/sylvanas-j...risis#comments

I consider myself a bit of a minority in that I didn't like Sylvanas as Warchief of the Horde (she's a fine character as the token evil teammate, but a shitty leader), I was pro-Saurfang, and I don't hate Baine. I thought Saurfang's characterization in BfA was a little too mopey given his previous characterization in Classic and WotLK, but I also understood where he was coming from, especially post-WotLK where he was hollowed out by the horror of what happened with his son. A lot of popular invective for Baine comes from his rather close friendships with Anduin and Jaina, but I think those friendships are intrinsic to his story arc and inform his character well. Baine's loyalty to the Horde has always been fractured due to the way he became chieftain of his people, the situation with his father's murder, and the fact that it was the Alliance and not his Horde peers who ultimately saved him from the coup Magatha engineered in the wake of Cairne's death. It makes sense to me that Baine would be the Horde's best diplomat with the Alliance, and I'm not so partisan that I feel the need to continuously denounce him as a traitor with every other breath.

Much of this is probably part and parcel of how I approach the game, not from a soft RP angle where I consider myself a backer of either faction, but rather taking in the story in as one cohesive whole and judging it on that level. The biggest issue that I see in terms of the faction divide isn't that this or that is unjustified, unfair, or that one side or another is the perpetual victim but rather that WoW's story has a tendency toward a peculiar onesidedness where the Horde has the tendency to move the plot forward with its shenanigans and the Alliance is kind of stuck in the role of responding to the Horde's actions. I'd be hard-pressed to point out beats in the main story arc where the Alliance sets the meter as opposed to the Horde having the lead, and even when they do, it's often entirely subtextual or occurs in external material like the novels, short stories, and comics.

[Le Conceptuel]

My main issue with Sabellian is that I'm not sure if I trust him in terms of Old God corruption. He can pretend to be the savior of his flight all day long, but if he still bears the corruption then as soon as he becomes an Aspect he'll likely go mad with power and we'll have another Deathwing we have to put down. Wrathion has a bad track record, but you can at least trust him to do what he thinks is best for Azeroth - except occasionally what he thinks is best leads to world war and mass casualties. Really a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" type of scenario all around.

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Wrathion always had a personality, I think - he started off as an arrogant little know-it-all, then shaded into a more responsible young adult with a lot of ambition but more self-awareness. Sabellian, too, has a lot of personality albeit of the aloof, gruff, and distant variety.

Agreed on both counts. Although I prefer Sabellian as a character in a good few ways, you are right that it's a somewhat convoluted situation—this is part of why I have any interesting in engaging in this question. Both have pros and cons as leaders—Wrathion is a misguided, arrogant dipshit with a global war and alien invasion on his hands and Sabellian is a ticking time bomb that lacks Wrathion's overall immunity to the Old Gods' influence. In spite of this, Wrathion is also a well-meaning figure that is only corruptible on account of his own failings rather than external influence and with extraordinary understanding of Azeroth's enemies and the capacity to defend it from them, and Sabellian is a mature, intelligent leader with the experience and competence to run an effective Dragonflight. I also think both are good characters with tangible personalities. As I said, Dragonflight's definitely bringing some better writing to the table than Shadowlands did by putting these characters in the spotlight, and for that I'm excited.

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I consider myself a bit of a minority in that I didn't like Sylvanas as Warchief of the Horde (she's a fine character as the token evil teammate, but a shitty leader), I was pro-Saurfang, and I don't hate Baine. I thought Saurfang's characterization in BfA was a little too mopey given his previous characterization in Classic and WotLK, but I also understood where he was coming from, especially post-WotLK where he was hollowed out by the horror of what happened with his son. A lot of popular invective for Baine comes from his rather close friendships with Anduin and Jaina, but I think those friendships are intrinsic to his story arc and inform his character well. Baine's loyalty to the Horde has always been fractured due to the way he became chieftain of his people, the situation with his father's murder, and the fact that it was the Alliance and not his Horde peers who ultimately saved him from the coup Magatha engineered in the wake of Cairne's death. It makes sense to me that Baine would be the Horde's best diplomat with the Alliance, and I'm not so partisan that I feel the need to continuously denounce him as a traitor with every other breath.

Frankly, my problem with Sylvanas is that she simply didn't suit the identity of the Horde—not to say this wasn't also the case for Vol'Jin. Consider me a reactionary fuddy-duddy, but I feel like the Horde should simply be run by an Orc in the same way that the Alliance should be run by a Human. The Horde as a whole is a pact mainly represented by the Orcs and should continue to be so, as should the Alliance be mainly led by the Humans—this isn't to say I think they should take primacy over the other races, of course, and in fact I think the opposite. By putting a non-Orc in charge of the Horde, I feel like it diminished the distinction between the identity of the Horde and the Undead. The Horde, ideally, should be a tribal confederacy with Orgrimmar as its heart, with many allies who ultimately only come to them for protection from the Alliance and some kind of companionship, not what effectively constitutes a centralized Empire. The Warchief of the Horde should be an Orc as much as the Regent-Lord should be a Blood Elf because both benefit from that.

I'd say that Saurfang should've been leader of the Horde for Legion onward (since it also would've allowed the Alliance to be the aggressors in BfA and prevented the Horde from taking a villain bat, whilst also keeping the aggressors more sympathetic since the Alliance has plenty of reasons to want to preemptively attack the Horde)—ideally, if the story were somehow written with extraordinary foresight, either Garrosh should've stayed leader of the Horde and gone down the route of Stonetalon Garrosh rather than become a proto-fascist Orcish supremacist or Dranosh should've survived and eventually become leader of the Horde. Either of these would have been good for the identity of the Horde because both had strong personalities that represented their race and faction well.

[Aucald]

Frankly, my problem with Sylvanas is that she simply didn't suit the identity of the Horde—not to say this wasn't also the case for Vol'Jin. Consider me a reactionary fuddy-duddy, but I feel like the Horde should simply be run by an Orc in the same way that the Alliance should be run by a Human. The Horde as a whole is a pact mainly represented by the Orcs and should continue to be so, as should the Alliance be mainly led by the Humans—this isn't to say I think they should take primacy over the other races, of course, and in fact I think the opposite. By putting a non-Orc in charge of the Horde, I feel like it diminished the distinction between the identity of the Horde and the Undead. The Horde, ideally, should be a tribal confederacy with Orgrimmar as its heart, with many allies who ultimately only come to them for protection from the Alliance and some kind of companionship, not what effectively constitutes a centralized Empire. The Warchief of the Horde should be an Orc as much as the Regent-Lord should be a Blood Elf because both benefit from that.

I kind of feel we left the whole "Orcs vs. Humans" vibe a long time ago, basically when WC3 hit the scene with its story. The Horde no longer feels to me like an orc-centric organization any more than the Alliance feels like a human-centric one. Insofar as the de facto leader of either faction goes I'm fine with any NPC of any race within that faction taking the reins so long as the story justifies them in the role - it'd be silly if someone like Zekhan became Warchief, same as it would if Topper McNabb became the High King of the Alliance. Insofar as the client races of each faction go, they should have an identifiable leader or small set of leaders who basically take prominence and represent that race in a literal and figurative sense. Lor'themar serves that role for the Blood Elves like Malfurion and Tyrande do for the Night Elves. This is kind of why I prefer council-style setups for both factions in this day and age because I think all the client races should be adequately represented and no longer play second fiddle to either the humans or the orcs respectively. There are several races who've always been in the background of the Warcraft story since WC3, and it'd be nice to see them more routinely explored and fleshed out, showing they have important roles to play within their respective organizations.

I'd say that Saurfang should've been leader of the Horde for Legion onward (since it also would've allowed the Alliance to be the aggressors in BfA and prevented the Horde from taking a villain bat, whilst also keeping the aggressors more sympathetic since the Alliance has plenty of reasons to want to preemptively attack the Horde)—ideally, if the story were somehow written with extraordinary foresight, either Garrosh should've stayed leader of the Horde and gone down the route of Stonetalon Garrosh rather than become a proto-fascist Orcish supremacist or Dranosh should've survived and eventually become leader of the Horde. Either of these would have been good for the identity of the Horde because both had strong personalities that represented their race and faction well.

I see "Stonetalon Garrosh" as more of an aberration based on Garrosh's prior behavior in WotLK than any kind of supposed route he was going to take in Cata, though I'm aware his fans think of that characterization as something more akin to his true nature than any previous or later characterizations. I think Saurfang could've made a good leader of the Horde in Sylvanas' place, although if Dranosh had lived it'd be interesting to see how he took to the role. That being said, I think a lot of BfA could've been fixed by making the Alliance vs. Horde conflict grayer (as the developers intimated it would be), and didn't include the razing of Teldrassil to make the conflict as starkly black and white as it could be, with the Horde being cast inarguably as the villains of the story. Just having the conflict in Silithus along with the weaponization of Azerite stoke the fears of both factions until their conflict spills out into greater Kalimdor and the Eastern Kingdoms more organically. Sylvanas could still do her heel-face turn and betray the Horde for the Jailer's cause later on without that, stroking the flames of war while surreptitiously helping free N'Zoth to cause mass death and feed the Jailer in the Maw. With a bit of a rework, you could still even have Tyrande do her Night Warrior thing, perhaps seeking vengeance on the Forsaken, and Sylvanas especially, for their actions in the Darkshore Warfront.

[Oneirophobia]

By this logic the player character is the worst of all.

Khadgar and the player were the ones who freed Gul'dan which allowed him to gain control of the Iron Horde and launch the invasion of Azeroth.

While true, this was only accomplished because of Wrathion's actions. No Wrathion "we're gunna 4D chess time travel infinite orc army the Legion into defeat" dumbassery, no second Gul'dan.

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If I don't return a wallet full of money, I am a bad person. But if the guy that lost it now lacks money to pay his rent and shoots up a bank, am I not guilty of robbery and murder? I don't think it works that way.

Not to nitpick, but I don't think this is quite the same. You're presented with a wallet full of money, the temptation to just keep it and assume it'll work out gets the best of you and nobody has to know. Shitty moral decision. There is little chance you'd even know the bank robbery and wallet were even connected.

Wrathion, on the other hand, plotted to steal the wallet with his two buddies Dr. Whomst and Garry "Literally Incarcerated At The Time" Hitler, under the assumption he and his weirdo friends could use the money to control a literal infinite amount of people (known for their wild and uncontrollable nature) into sacrificing
themselves to kill space Satan and his army for them.

Like, the dude freed Garrosh from jail for god sakes. AFTER Garrosh just tried to conquer the planet with the Old God Y'shaarj. Pretty much every important race on the planet decided Garrosh should be in prison and Wrathion was like "ACTUALLLLLLY".

You definitely didn't break the shooter out of jail after you found (and not stole) his wallet and attempt to turn him into an orcish messiah.

[Le Conceptuel]

I kind of feel we left the whole "Orcs vs. Humans" vibe a long time ago, basically when WC3 hit the scene with its story. The Horde no longer feels to me like an orc-centric organization any more than the Alliance feels like a human-centric one. Insofar as the de facto leader of either faction goes I'm fine with any NPC of any race within that faction taking the reins so long as the story justifies them in the role - it'd be silly if someone like Zekhan became Warchief, same as it would if Topper McNabb became the High King of the Alliance. Insofar as the client races of each faction go, they should have an identifiable leader or small set of leaders who basically take prominence and represent that race in a literal and figurative sense. Lor'themar serves that role for the Blood Elves like Malfurion and Tyrande do for the Night Elves. This is kind of why I prefer council-style setups for both factions in this day and age because I think all the client races should be adequately represented and no longer play second fiddle to either the humans or the orcs respectively. There are several races who've always been in the background of the Warcraft story since WC3, and it'd be nice to see them more routinely explored and fleshed out, showing they have important roles to play within their respective organizations.

That's perfectly fair—however, I do think that something of the old setup ought to be maintained for thematic reasons. The Alliance and Horde, even if not strictly centered on the Humans or Orcs respectively, still ought to keep something of a consistent identity to avoid creating a Ship of Theseus situation. It feels like the Horde insofar as it exists only maintains that title as a legacy moreso than it is an actual continuation of Thrall's Horde circa Warcraft III—were it up to me, I'd say that it would've been a better direction to maintain some distinction between the Horde as a geopolitical faction (i.e. the alliance between Thrall's Horde, Undercity, and later Silvermoon) and the Horde as an actual continuing body (i.e. Thrall's Horde).

This goes the other way, too. The Alliance wouldn't really be served as well by being represented in subfactions, but its characterization seems more like a quasi-unified confederacy (which I think ought to be the case for the Horde rather than the Alliance) than a defensive accord. The introduction of the "High King" title ended up rendering every race subordinate to the Humans and simultaneously muddling the Alliance's identity—had the Alliance remained a military alliance led by a Supreme Commander, it would be able to maintain its identity whilst also not demeaning the other races, whereas the introduction of the High King reduced the independence of the various members of the Alliance and redefined it as an imperial confederacy instead of a league of allied kingdoms.

The aforementioned issue of reducing the autonomy of individual members of the Alliance also applies to the Horde, which is part of why I think it's best for the seat of Warchief to remain exclusively Orcish—the Warchief feels most suitable as an Orcish title because it originates from that culture, and because it represents that particular part of the Horde's identity. When another race takes on an Orcish title like that, it sort of reduces the capacity of both races to act independently from their allies and be portrayed in themselves without the identity of their faction as a whole intruding on them.

I see "Stonetalon Garrosh" as more of an aberration based on Garrosh's prior behavior in WotLK than any kind of supposed route he was going to take in Cata, though I'm aware his fans think of that characterization as something more akin to his true nature than any previous or later characterizations. I think Saurfang could've made a good leader of the Horde in Sylvanas' place, although if Dranosh had lived it'd be interesting to see how he took to the role. That being said, I think a lot of BfA could've been fixed by making the Alliance vs. Horde conflict grayer (as the developers intimated it would be), and didn't include the razing of Teldrassil to make the conflict as starkly black and white as it could be, with the Horde being cast inarguably as the villains of the story. Just having the conflict in Silithus along with the weaponization of Azerite stoke the fears of both factions until their conflict spills out into greater Kalimdor and the Eastern Kingdoms more organically. Sylvanas could still do her heel-face turn and betray the Horde for the Jailer's cause later on without that, stroking the flames of war while surreptitiously helping free N'Zoth to cause mass death and feed the Jailer in the Maw. With a bit of a rework, you could still even have Tyrande do her Night Warrior thing, perhaps seeking vengeance on the Forsaken, and Sylvanas especially, for their actions in the Darkshore Warfront.

I mention Stonetalon Garrosh not because I believe that was the original plan for the character – I believe it was explicitly said by Blizzard that it was an aberration, as you said – but because I think that it's a better character than the one we were given (even though I do believe the Garrosh we got was an interesting character). I feel like Garrosh not turning into a loot pinata and instead growing as a character and developing a better but still distinctly flawed personality would be very good for the story—the Garrosh that is portrayed in the Stonetalon Mountains questline is effectively the best and worst of the Horde, as though he were an anthropomorphic avatar of his faction. This would make for a very good long-term faction leader for the same reasons that I'm looking forward to Turalyon—as a blend of both the best and worst of its faction, the faction leader of that stripe effectively ensures that it maintains a consistent and nuanced stream of characterization. As for Dranosh, I mention him because I feel like he makes for a good compromise between the elder Saurfang and Garrosh—he had the honor, integrity, and willingness to work with other factions of the former and the brashness, youth, and energy of the latter. I feel that if he survived longer and were allowed to grow more as a character, he would make for a very good leader of the Horde because he represents its moral best without watering it down or diminishing its militant nature.

For the BfA plotline, I rewrote it once or twice before, and I intend to rewrite it and Shadowlands for a final time soon. My general idea is that it would make sense for the Alliance to conduct a (well-intentioned) preemptive strike on the Horde. Tyrande would be partially responsible because she would be the first to recognize Azerite as what it is—with her experience from the harm the Well of Eternity caused, she understands full well that the blood of a Titan is not something to use haphazardly. Putting some fault on Tyrande also gives her the guilt of being indirectly responsible for the attack that later occurs on the Night Elves. I kept the Burning of Teldrassil, but I think it would be best as an accident spurred on by the Night Elves trying to store Azerite there, ignited by the use of Azerite weaponry by Horde Bat-Riders, Gunships and other bombardiers—what began as an unfortunate but expedient campaign of wartime bombing metamorphoses very quickly and unintentionally into an accidental genocide. It would still give Tyrande and the Night Elves the opportunity to go dark and start their campaign of vengeance, but it would also mitigate some of the stupidity that came with it and not paint the Horde as the bad guys. More importantly, it does something that BfA failed to really do in establishing that Azerite is a truly dangerous material, effectively a WMD unseen on Azeroth until this point (aside from the enhanced Mana Bomb used by Garrosh, but that was a pretty extraordinary device created through dramatic enhancement of common Mana Bombs, which can seemingly only destroy towns at most), creating a sense of an arms race for survival.

In said rewrites, I argue Sylvanas' characterization probably should've just stayed as that of a thanatophobic despot. I think that it would make sense for her to be a paranoid lunatic constantly jumping at shadows (much like many real-world dictators) and it would've kept her as a nice, consistent villain that wouldn't need such a convoluted excuse to put in the position she eventually enters.

[rogueMatthias]

How do we forgive Wrathion?

I'm old enough to remember when I helped free Saurfang and ensure he got a warriors burial "with honour" within the same expansion where he helped lead the genocide of my people.

[Arlette]

While true, this was only accomplished because of Wrathion's actions. No Wrathion "we're gunna 4D chess time travel infinite orc army the Legion into defeat" dumbassery, no second Gul'dan.

So then we're now assigning blame to people making actions in situations that the original person didn't intend and would very probably say, "That's a stupid idea why would you even suggest that" ???

Now we're moving into another realm which once again just shows how dumb this whole blame assignment thing is. Wrathion obviously isn't blameless, even he doesn't think that in his actual thoughts and not the bravado he projects to hide his insecurities. The Iron Horde forming is absolutely at his feet because its a direct response to something he did.

Everything after that is a huge tapestry of choices of many other people who also screwed up or are doing something intentionally bad.

Once again I will go back to the belief that the blame game is pointless and goes nowhere.

[Le Conceptuel]

my people.

Your fictional video game character's people, you mean. Remember to separate fiction from reality. I agree with you that the plot is stupid, but your way of phrasing that isn't a good way of doing so. Perhaps try phrasing that in an impartial way that is suitable for your claim and which better articulates the comparison between the topic at hand and the instance you mentioned?

[Nymrohd]

I don't know if the vast majority did, or simply a certain segment who was very vocal (although, yes, the official forums and social media were very pro-Sylvanas).

I mean the actual Horde, not the players. The rebels were said to be a pitiful number; they included leadership of several races but the leaders did not carry their races with them.

We know that Stonetalon Garrosh was a miscommunication.
Still it did resonate with many players and for a very obvious reason; Stonetalon Garrosh is exactly what you expect from the "noble savage" fantasy that Blizzard was outwardly trying to sell about the Horde (even though they were failing to actually sell that fantasy in game). It was a return to what quite a few people wanted the Horde to be. It's not even about Garrosh as a character it's about the faction that is aggressive in how it conducts war yet still always conducts it honorably. Stonetalon Garrosh was fullfilling that fantasy and it is scarce to see in Warcraft and always notable (Gorgonna in Grizzly Hills, Zaela in Twilight Highlands were similar moments; meanwhile Garrosh up to that point was anything but).

[Le Conceptuel]

Still it did resonate with many players and for a very obvious reason; Stonetalon Garrosh is exactly what you expect from the "noble savage" fantasy that Blizzard was outwardly trying to sell about the Horde (even though they were failing to actually sell that fantasy in game). It was a return to what quite a few people wanted the Horde to be. It's not even about Garrosh as a character it's about the faction that is aggressive in how it conducts war yet still always conducts it honorably. Stonetalon Garrosh was fullfilling that fantasy and it is scarce to see in Warcraft and always notable (Gorgonna in Grizzly Hills, Zaela in Twilight Highlands were similar moments; meanwhile Garrosh up to that point was anything but).

Effectively my feelings on the matter. I don't think Stonetalon Garrosh was ever the plan, but I think it would have been significantly more enjoyable than the Garrosh we got. I much prefer the idea of the factions being led by someone who effectively represents their best and worst.

[Nymrohd]

Effectively my feelings on the matter. I don't think Stonetalon Garrosh was ever the plan, but I think it would have been significantly more enjoyable than the Garrosh we got. I much prefer the idea of the factions being led by someone who effectively represents their best and worst.

It's probably why Varian was such a weird addition; paint him green and he would have been the perfect Horde leader (he even had a wolf theme ffs).
Bolvar was quite perfect as an Alliance leader; a paladin that is slow to act and blind to corruption until someone makes it clear to him but when he does act it is decisive (Bolvar's dragonspawn massacre in the throne room is still one of the coolest moments in WoW imo)

[FelPlague]

Given that Sabellian is distinct from Wrathion on account of not being a misguided idiot, I'm definitely leaning towards him.

The idea that blizz takes whoever has the most "playerbase favor" as in which of the two gets the most player support using data of who does what dailies would be amazing.
but i know that would not work, nor will sabellian win, cause few people know who he is, and wrathion is wrathion, even if sabellian deserves to be the aspect far more then wrathion, we all know it is gunna be wrathion...

[Le Conceptuel]

It's probably why Varian was such a weird addition; paint him green and he would have been the perfect Horde leader (he even had a wolf theme ffs).
Bolvar was quite perfect as an Alliance leader; a paladin that is slow to act and blind to corruption until someone makes it clear to him but when he does act it is decisive (Bolvar's dragonspawn massacre in the throne room is still one of the coolest moments in WoW imo)

I'd say the Alliance is currently in good hands with Turalyon. He seems to reflect older depictions of the Alliance well—resolute and firm in his commitments, albeit sometimes in excess, and righteous, for better or worse. I think he will make for a very good long-term leader for the Alliance, and I do think it's a shame that the Horde never really got a leader of a similarly faction-reflective character.