How is Dragonflight solving shortage of tanks and healers problem?

[lllll]

There isn't really a healer shortage for a while now, not sure there was much even in Legion when m+ started.

I often have to resort to just healing alt keys with friends if none of them are playing a healer because we're just sitting there waiting forever for a healer otherwise.

[Lolites]

Are they not?

for whole playerbase? not by a longshot, vast majority never even go above 15...

[lllll]

Are they not?

Most people probably don't even do +15s.

https://raider.io/mythic-plus/cutoffs/season-sl-4/eu

28.6% got KSM this season.

[Lolites]

Most people probably don't even do +15s.

https://raider.io/mythic-plus/cutoffs/season-sl-4/eu

28.6% got KSM this season.

which is actualy increase from S3 (26.1%)

[sponge5307]

Anecdotally, had to spend way more time waiting for healers than tanks the last couple seasons of SL to the point that if we had 4 it was easier to just have a person heal
as their third offspec and wait for a tank since healing keys is so easy when you have good DPS who blow everything up

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Ah yes, one of the martyr complex tanks Bash was just talking about. Though to be fair, there are a lot of healers like this, too, still believing they are unicorn princesses doing this thankless job.

Probably the best thing about the healer/tank DPS meta is that it has really helped distinguish these types from the people who are good at the job. For a long time only PvP and super elite raiding really did that.

Well is simple would you go charging in and start dpsing the boss or adds in your own guild raid group when the tank isn't ready? If the answer is no then why do it in dungeons to a tank you never meet before when they clearly tell you they are learning the ins and outs of their class. I never once pull for the tank even if I over gear the dungeon. My rule isn't a tank so I let them do their job. Can I save the dps? Yup I solo tank all the daily boss that drops 272 gear on all my tanks. But hey if they want to do my job as well then go ahead.

[Relapses]

Which is the problem. You need to actually wade through the cesspool to get there. Many potential tanks will quit before then.

That's kinda what I'm getting at though. They're going to do that anyway. The only way to get there is to keep trying. If you give up because of clueless players blaming you for things that aren't your fault then that's kind of a you problem more than a game problem.

[Infernoxas]

I've been a long time WoW player until about 1.5 years ago. How does the new expansion, Dragonflight, solve the shortage of tanks and healers problems?

Also I know Mythic+ is a popular feature, but I absolutely hate it because it's so difficult to get tanks for a group. Is Mythic+ in DF the same as before? This also leads to the issue of tanks and healers shortage.

Easy answer: Cross-faction grouping

[Cerus]

Easy answer: Cross-faction grouping

Wrong answer. I’ve seen this response several times….and it makes zero sense.

Why? Because there are 6 tank specs, 7 healer and 25 DPS. Doubling the pool to include both factions doesn’t change that ratio because you’re not just adding the tanks and healers.

The answer is that there isn’t a shortage of tanks and healers, there’s an over abundance of DPS. X-faction doesn’t change that.

[Gorsameth]

nor is the imbalance only one 1 faction. Both sides suffer from it. X-faction does absolutely nothing for it.

[huth]

That's kinda what I'm getting at though. They're going to do that anyway. The only way to get there is to keep trying. If you give up because of clueless players blaming you for things that aren't your fault then that's kind of a you problem more than a game problem.

No, that's a you not realising the scope of the issue problem. In particular since those clueless players will also prevent them from successfully progressing beyond that stage. I'm not blaming anybody for not wanting to waste their limited free time on getting insulted and blamed for other people's problems.

You are, though.

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Wrong answer. I’ve seen this response several times….and it makes zero sense.

Why? Because there are 6 tank specs, 7 healer and 25 DPS. Doubling the pool to include both factions doesn’t change that ratio because you’re not just adding the tanks and healers.

The answer is that there isn’t a shortage of tanks and healers, there’s an over abundance of DPS. X-faction doesn’t change that.

Right conclusion, wrong path. The number of specs is irrelevant. It's still the same problem on both sides, but that problem is that the community makes playing tanks unenjoyable, not that there's a lack of available tank specs.

[Cerus]

No, that's a you not realising the scope of the issue problem. In particular since those clueless players will also prevent them from successfully progressing beyond that stage. I'm not blaming anybody for not wanting to waste their limited free time on getting insulted and blamed for other people's problems.

You are, though.

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Right conclusion, wrong path. The number of specs is irrelevant. It's still the same problem on both sides, but that problem is that the community makes playing tanks unenjoyable, not that there's a lack of available tank specs.

It’s very relevant. Simple statistics. DPS specs are the vast majority. They’re simple going to be more players playing DPS because that’s what the majority enjoys.

[Phob]

Most people probably don't even do +15s.

https://raider.io/mythic-plus/cutoffs/season-sl-4/eu

28.6% got KSM this season.

But that doesn't really make it "harder" the amount of people completing them doesn't dictate its difficulty. Just tells you how many people are doing them. The people who actually do the content are the people who can talk about its difficulty. That same percentage will be at 20s in dragonflight because thats what they want for whatever loot they are going for.

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for whole playerbase? not by a longshot, vast majority never even go above 15...

The amount of people doesn't dictate the difficulty, The content dictates it.



If the content is puggable, Its easy that's always been the metric.

[lllll]

The amount of people doesn't dictate the difficulty, The content dictates it.



If the content is puggable, Its easy that's always been the metric.

I've pugged up to +26.

Surely everyone should be able to do it, because it's puggable and because it's puggable, it's easy.

That same percentage will be at 20s in dragonflight because thats what they want for whatever loot they are going for.

Nah.

Have you actually tried to bring someone who's only done 15s, to 20 keys?

[Imnotadentist]

Tanks/healers already have some benefits - insta ques, ability to more or less choose M+ group/key they want to do. Also Call to Arms satchel is pretty lucrative before the renewable rune is being added in the last tier.

WoW and other games tried to incentivise tanks and healers via additional rewards of many different varieties yet it almost never works - mainly because the online community is what it is, and can be pretty stresful to take up on an important role, being afraid of potential backlash if you fail.

I do not think that it is really possible to make people play healer/tank more than they already do try with the bonus rewards thing they do for LFG (the little bags of gold or w/e)
and i double think making mounts/pets/cosmetics or anything of the sort would do more harm than good. Some people prefer to play dps only classes, and to make them make a new toon and play a different role wouldn't be chillen.

[Phob]

I've pugged up to +26.

Surely everyone should be able to do it, because it's puggable and because it's puggable, it's easy.



Nah.

Have you actually tried to bring someone who's only done 15s, to 20 keys?

The people who stop at 15 are the people who want the loot. The max loot is at 20 in DF so those people who stopped at 15 will be stopping at 20.

[huth]

It’s very relevant. Simple statistics. DPS specs are the vast majority. They’re simple going to be more players playing DPS because that’s what the majority enjoys.

You just contradicted your own point there. There could be 25 tank specs and 7 DPS specs and we'd still have more DPS because people would rather play DPS. The number of specs doesn't matter.

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The people who stop at 15 are the people who want the loot. The max loot is at 20 in DF so those people who stopped at 15 will be stopping at 20.

You both have a point. People will be trying for 20s more, but not as many will actually make it there as did with 15s.

[Lordofbelbol]

I don't hink that is true. That point comes up all the time. That M+ made dungeons to linear. I don't think that. Dungeons have been linear forever.
But non linear dungeons are just more intersting imho. You don't have to go overboard like in Junkyard. But still. DIfferent roots are fun. Taking a new root because a new affix makes another route better or easier is keeping the dungeons fresh. Otherwise it is the same mob group on the same path every single time.

People complain about the routes being to difficult... that is jsut lazyness that is all. Mythic+ is endgame content. So people should make themselves familiar with the content they are doing. Look up possible routes. Mostly there are just a few with a bit variation. It is not like you are doing a 100% different run.

This is the same like people who don't care about mechanics of bosses and then wonder why the people in their group get toxic....

Routes are NOT complicated... at all... dungeons are not really a hard labyrinth. If you don't give a fuck and just enter... sure... how about pressing "M" and looking at the map. You don't even have to take any optimal path to finsih a normal dungeon or in time for mythic. Most DPS and Healers in low keys don't care what path you take too. They just follow. When you get higher up yes. You should know the path you are going to take before you start. Same as healers should know what mobs will dish out higher damage or what mechanic will give people difficulties to dodge or are unavidable and DPS need to know prio targets stuff to nterrupt and DPS specific mechanics.

this is very correct
specially the last part even in mid keys people don't much and it's not a constant issue

i once tanked halls of atonement mid expansion and were not experienced in route, we hit 90% before second boss which was overkill and 2 dps complained
so next time i did a better route and was better
that's it happened 1 time and was fixed, people here like to exaggerate how players complain about route

[Tyris Flare]

You both have a point. People will be trying for 20s more, but not as many will actually make it there as did with 15s.

Going to be interesting to see how well it goes over to take that ~28% number and probably drop it in half. I have no clue why they believe this will help with retention/subs but I guess we'll find out

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Which means they will eventually nerf 20s as those people start to unsub. They're obsessed with making the game hard right now, and the playerbase doesn't want it.

Heh, yep. Seems crazy to me

[Relapses]

No, that's a you not realising the scope of the issue problem. In particular since those clueless players will also prevent them from successfully progressing beyond that stage. I'm not blaming anybody for not wanting to waste their limited free time on getting insulted and blamed for other people's problems.

You are, though.

If somebody criticized me for something that I knew wasn't my fault then I'd ignore that criticism and move on with my day. People are always going to be assholes on the internet, it's kind of on the player on some level to either put their head down and move past it or let it effect them negatively. If you're in the latter camp then no amount of changing to the tank or healing role will ever make it more appealing to you because this will always happen.

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Going to be interesting to see how well it goes over to take that ~28% number and probably drop it in half. I have no clue why they believe this will help with retention/subs but I guess we'll find out

KSM is still around and it's still at the +15 level. The only difference is now there's more of a reason for players to push higher. I don't think this will have a huge impact on the number of people getting KSM (though introductory seasons are typically more difficult). I do think that the 15-20 keystone range will be a bit more toxic now that there's more on the line for timing keys but I think we're better off in a world where there are more options for M+ only players.

[Celement]

If somebody criticized me for something that I knew wasn't my fault then I'd ignore that criticism and move on with my day. People are always going to be assholes on the internet, it's kind of on the player on some level to either put their head down and move past it or let it effect them negatively. If you're in the latter camp then no amount of changing to the tank or healing role will ever make it more appealing to you because this will always happen.

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KSM is still around and it's still at the +15 level. The only difference is now there's more of a reason for players to push higher. I don't think this will have a huge impact on the number of people getting KSM (though introductory seasons are typically more difficult). I do think that the 15-20 keystone range will be a bit more toxic now that there's more on the line for timing keys but I think we're better off in a world where there are more options for M+ only players.

I don't think it will be more toxic.. I think it will be a copy past now plus 5.

It's always the easiest difficulty 15s now 20s in DF that have the most desperate players that kind of luck into keys rather then being able to replace them rapidly.

I still think that just letting people manually set what difficulty they want and just have the key designate dungeon would be a better system.