How is Dragonflight solving shortage of tanks and healers problem?

[Tyris Flare]

KSM is still around and it's still at the +15 level. The only difference is now there's more of a reason for players to push higher. I don't think this will have a huge impact on the number of people getting KSM (though introductory seasons are typically more difficult). I do think that the 15-20 keystone range will be a bit more toxic now that there's more on the line for timing keys but I think we're better off in a world where there are more options for M+ only players.

Yeah sorry, my implication was the number of people getting a max reward vault was about that high and will now drop dramatically.

I don't think that is going to go over well, and it's definitely going to be more toxic.

Personally I don't think having more options for m+ players needed to be combined with this. Why not leave 15s for vault but let you push 20s to upgrade gear higher? Or have more cosmetic seasonal rewards?

[Lolites]

The amount of people doesn't dictate the difficulty, The content dictates it.
If the content is puggable, Its easy that's always been the metric.

"low to mid-range keys that people routinely pug (15-20)"
"if you think 15-20 is "low to mid range" you are laughably out of reality..."
"Are they not?" (this one is yours if you remember )
"for whole playerbase? not by a longshot, vast majority never even go above 15..."

could you point me out where I or the person i reacted to mentioned keys being easy or not? bcs thats what YOU brought into the debate...
keys that are run =/= keys that COULD BE done by the same people...
fact is people running above +15 are more of and exception than rule, so no, 15-20 is not "low to mid range" in pugs, and your difficulty comment was completely besides the point...

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The people who stop at 15 are the people who want the loot. The max loot is at 20 in DF so those people who stopped at 15 will be stopping at 20.

and in DF mid range MIGHT move up, and perhaps will reach the 15-20, for now, it is not

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That same percentage will be at 20s in dragonflight because thats what they want for whatever loot they are going for.

if it will be "the same percantage" for +20 rather than +15 then ist still less than third, so still 20 is not even mid range, let alone low...

The people who actually do the content are the people who can talk about its difficulty.

we didnt talk about difficulty, you did...
people doing +2 are STILL DOING THE CONTENT...
i see where you are coming from now, you are elitist prick who think vast majority doesnt matter bcs they dont do content he deems as difficult enough to warran opinion...
well luckily for us YOUR OPINION doesnt matter, fact is the same, +15 or above are done by minority hence 15-20 is not by any measurement "low to mid range"

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I do think that the 15-20 keystone range will be a bit more toxic now that there's more on the line for timing keys but I think we're better off in a world where there are more options for M+ only players.

i mean, moving the gear ceiling isnt really "more options" its the same gear we had from more difficult content, for HC raiders and people who barely do KSM that is LESS options for getting best (or close to) gear...

[Relapses]

i mean, moving the gear ceiling isnt really "more options" its the same gear we had from more difficult content, for HC raiders and people who barely do KSM that is LESS options for getting best (or close to) gear...

I believe the intention here is for there to be less friction for people in Heroic guilds who may feel compelled to also do keys for progression. Right now it's a kind of have and have-not's situation which isn't ideal. I see what you're getting at, though. If nothing else, it'll be interesting to see how it'll play out.

[Lolites]

I believe the intention here is for there to be less friction for people in Heroic guilds who may feel compelled to also do keys for progression. Right now it's a kind of have and have-not's situation which isn't ideal. I see what you're getting at, though. If nothing else, it'll be interesting to see how it'll play out.

most likely instead of feeling compelled to do +15 those people will feel compelled to do +20...
mentality of people wont change just bcs you move "finishing line"...

[huth]

If somebody criticized me for something that I knew wasn't my fault then I'd ignore that criticism and move on with my day. People are always going to be assholes on the internet, it's kind of on the player on some level to either put their head down and move past it or let it effect them negatively. If you're in the latter camp then no amount of changing to the tank or healing role will ever make it more appealing to you because this will always happen.

Well, it's great that experienced, established people know how to deal with the situation... but that does absolutely nothing to fix the issue of unexperienced, non-established people not being able to get in and gain that experience. Those who don't know it isn't their fault yet nor have enough experience to determine whose it was.

Your situation is irrelevant. You are already past the part that makes things problematic. Your personal experience is no longer directly relevant as it doesn't reflect the people that are actually struggling. You're just arguing to not fix anything because it doesn't affect you personally and you can't grasp that the problem is outside your own bubble.

This is pretty much "then let them eat cake" level arguing.

[Relapses]

most likely instead of feeling compelled to do +15 those people will feel compelled to do +20...
mentality of people wont change just bcs you move "finishing line"...

Maybe? It's hard to say because the scaling is changing, too. One thing I will say is that if you're a Heroic guild encouraging your guild to do +20s then you should probably be looking to move your group into Mythic.

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Well, it's great that experienced, established people know how to deal with the situation... but that does absolutely nothing to fix the issue of unexperienced, non-established people not being able to get in and gain that experience. Those who don't know it isn't their fault yet nor have enough experience to determine whose it was.

Your situation is irrelevant. You are already past the part that makes things problematic. Your personal experience is no longer directly relevant as it doesn't reflect the people that are actually struggling. You're just arguing to not fix anything because it doesn't affect you personally and you can't grasp that the problem is outside your own bubble.

This is pretty much "then let them eat cake" level arguing.

I wasn't born with the carnal knowledge of being able to assess situations and figure out the reason things happen in dungeons. There are multiple add-ons which can help you get to the bottom of things. If I can teach myself this, so can others. You're advocating for players as if they have no agency over their own role. And because they have no agency, it's Blizzard's job to coddle them to make sure that assholes on the internet don't do what assholes on the internet are want to do. I don't think this is the right approach because it's liable to make the game a whole helluva lot less interesting since we're then valuing the creation of safe spaces over one of learning from experience.

[Lolites]

Maybe? It's hard to say because the scaling is changing, too. One thing I will say is that if you're a Heroic guild encouraging your guild to do +20s then you should probably be looking to move your group into Mythic.

while sometimes it is guild thing, often its people mentality
some people think they cant be competitive in HC raid without doing high keys, which is bs, we have multiple raid groups in my guild, and we had groups of people who never did anything but raids and they pulled their weight no issue, and we had people who were only raiding normal yet still run higher keys (mostly over time for weekly) bcs they felt like they need better stuff for their normal...

people like that will surely feel the need to run +20 even if over time, and will likely fail which will make them feel even worse and unprepared...
tbh, i dont care, i usualy stopped at 15-17 range, i will now stop at 20-22, but i think this change wont help anyone but "hurt" some people...

[Relapses]

while sometimes it is guild thing, often its people mentality
some people think they cant be competitive in HC raid without doing high keys, which is bs, we have multiple raid groups in my guild, and we had groups of people who never did anything but raids and they pulled their weight no issue, and we had people who were only raiding normal yet still run higher keys (mostly over time for weekly) bcs they felt like they need better stuff for their normal...

people like that will surely feel the need to run +20 even if over time, and most likely fail...
tbh, i dont care, i usualy stopped at 15-17 range, i will now stop at 20-22, but i think this change wont help anyone but "hurt" some people...

Right, no, I completely understand your position here. It's possible, I agree. I guess I'm looking it from a glass half-full perspective. I think that a big reason the whole +15 thing was such an issue with Heroic guilds has a lot to do with how relatively easy they were. In a world where the best gear drops from keys which are more akin in difficulty to Mythic raiding maybe some of these same Heroic guilds forego the key requirement altogether.

[Lolites]

Right, no, I completely understand your position here. It's possible, I agree. I guess I'm looking it from a glass half-full perspective. I think that a big reason the whole +15 thing was such an issue with Heroic guilds has a lot to do with how relatively easy they were. In a world where the best gear drops from keys which are more akin in difficulty to Mythic raiding maybe some of these same Heroic guilds forego the key requirement altogether.

thing is, if you compare it to sl in bfa keys gave BETTER gear, and raids were fine...
did some guilds have ridiculous requirements? sure
is there any change that would stop some guilds from having ridiculous requirements? well, no, not really

only way some raids would stop "requiring" you to run keys to help with raid progress is if it was mutualy exclusive - if you run keys this week you cant enter raid - short of that it will always be "required" by tryhard guilds

[Relapses]

thing is, if you compare it to sl in bfa keys gave BETTER gear, and raids were fine...
did some guilds have ridiculous requirements? sure
is there any change that would stop some guilds from having ridiculous requirements? well, no, not really

only way some raids would stop "requiring" you to run keys to help with raid progress is if it was mutualy exclusive - if you run keys this week you cant enter raid - short of that it will always be "required" by tryhard guilds

It's difficult to mitigate tryhard guilds with unreasonable expectations of their raiders. That's a wholly people issue because, as you said, it's perfectly reasonable for a Heroic-only guild to be able to progress in Heroic exclusively using the gear which drops in the raid. It feels like, on some level, this is a move designed to help segment M+ from raiding. While I agree that it was fine in BfA where the relationship between M+ and raiding was more symbiotic, it seems Blizzard doesn't want a situation where M+ is more efficient no matter what.

[huth]

I wasn't born with the carnal knowledge of being able to assess situations and figure out the reason things happen in dungeons. There are multiple add-ons which can help you get to the bottom of things. If I can teach myself this, so can others. You're advocating for players as if they have no agency over their own role. And because they have no agency, it's Blizzard's job to coddle them to make sure that assholes on the internet don't do what assholes on the internet are want to do. I don't think this is the right approach because it's liable to make the game a whole helluva lot less interesting since we're then valuing the creation of safe spaces over one of learning from experience.

And you did this over how long a timeframe? You're advocating as if learning is instant and people putting you down while trying to learn doesn't negatively affect it.
I'm not advocating as if they had no agency. They lack experience, not agency. You keep assuming they get into the situation with the same conditions you did. The situation has changed since you went through it.

The safe spaces are needed so they can actually learn how to handle the situation. The balance has shifted way to far in the direction of the assholes.

[Relapses]

And you did this over how long a timeframe? You're advocating as if learning is instant and people putting you down while trying to learn doesn't negatively affect it.
I'm not advocating as if they had no agency. They lack experience, not agency. You keep assuming they get into the situation with the same conditions you did. The situation has changed since you went through it.

I began tanking in TBC, back in 2007. I spent a majority of my time in this expansion tanking Heroic dungeons. I started to tank because a friend's guild needed a third tank for Magtheridon to click a button. This guild disbanded after my second raid with them but the experience got me interested in tanking. From there, I got the Champion of the Naaru title through PuGing. I made a lot of friends on my server networking. (Turns out players like having a pocket tank on their friends list.) Through this networking, I eventually got recruited to a guild and MT'd through a few bosses in SSC before the guild eventually disbanded. (Never got Hand of A'dal because I didn't have Thunderfury and it was impossible to get a tank trial in a guild clearing SSC/TK without knowing somebody in the guild to which you're applying.) After the disband, I went back to tanking daily Heroics and farming badges for the rest of the expansion. At no point during my journey as a tank did I let any of the many criticisms levied towards me while I was learning get the better of me. My learning curve was not instantaneous but almost everything I learned about tanking I taught myself through experience. (This was before many of the tools I mentioned even existed.) For me, repetition and rote memorization are what helped me become a better tank.

The safe spaces are needed so they can actually learn how to handle the situation. The balance has shifted way to far in the direction of the assholes.

Short of creating AI-assisted instances for players to simulate tanking a dungeon I'm not sure how such a safe-space can exist. How would you suggest they go about it?

[lllll]

The people who stop at 15 are the people who want the loot. The max loot is at 20 in DF so those people who stopped at 15 will be stopping at 20.

Yeah, no. 20 is harder than 15. Most people who stop at 15 are nowhere close to good enough to do 20s.

[Gorsameth]

thing is, if you compare it to sl in bfa keys gave BETTER gear, and raids were fine...
did some guilds have ridiculous requirements? sure
is there any change that would stop some guilds from having ridiculous requirements? well, no, not really

only way some raids would stop "requiring" you to run keys to help with raid progress is if it was mutualy exclusive - if you run keys this week you cant enter raid - short of that it will always be "required" by tryhard guilds

I don't think raids were fine in BFA.
These processes are not instantaneous, they are snowballs. The ease of M+ rewards bleeding the normal/heroic raiding scene dry has been an ongoing process probably since its introduction.

[Lolites]

While I agree that it was fine in BfA where the relationship between M+ and raiding was more symbiotic, it seems Blizzard doesn't want a situation where M+ is more efficient no matter what.

which is funny, bcs M+ was created as alternative for people who dont want ( or dont have time) raiding, and now in SL when raiding gives best items ("late" mythic have higher ilvl than anything from m+ or vault, trinkets and weapons are usualy better from raid), though only slightly better, so M+ si viable alternative, yet "Best" gear is still from raid, they move goalpost for m+
it seems such a weird decision to me

[Gorsameth]

which is funny, bcs M+ was created as alternative for people who dont want ( or dont have time) raiding, and now in SL when raiding gives best items ("late" mythic have higher ilvl than anything from m+ or vault, trinkets and weapons are usualy better from raid), though only slightly better, so M+ si viable progress bath, yet "Best" gear is still from raid, they move goalpost for m+
it seems such a weird decision to me

now compare it to Normal and Heroic raids.
That's where the problem lies, not with Mythic raids.

The ceiling in M+ difficulty is to low, that is why they are moving it to +20 instead of +15.

M+ being a viable alternate progress path is no a problem, so long as the difficulty is comparable. And in SL's it wasn't.

[Nights]

At some point after m+ introduction they ware testing voting system to punish toxic behevior, problem was there is 3 dps vs one tank or healer so vote will in most cases be one sided anyway. With new talent system they hope it will be easier to swap to best dung or raid spec always and with that more ppl will be willing to tank.

So like 2 - 3 years ago or so, they knew main problem is toxic ppl and still to this day did absolutly nothing agaist it, in the meantime they introduced second expansion will lots of new systems etc and still didnt figure solution to this one "simple" problem of ppl beeing toxic af. Almost like its not easy to solve it without heavly punishing ppl who do it. And with this exp pack when alts will be a thing again, even if they introduce some kind of penalty for leaving key b4 finishing it or some lock for reported toxic acts, ppl will just swap chars.

As long as ppl can tell you all kind of insults and still play the game it will never change.

Thats way in games or on servers with closed coummunity on one server/realm etc this problem almost dont exist or its far less relevant. The annonimity of beeing as**le cus next group wont know anyway, its half of the problem and it was far smaller b4 connected realms and lfg when everyone knew each other and everyone knew who to avoid on server.

Unless they figure out to "mark",rate,punish or something else those ppl who are toxic af nothing will change and less and less ppl will tank/heal in random grups.

[huth]

I began tanking in TBC, back in 2007.

Precisely. Your situation isn't remotely comparable. You were already well-established by the time this even became a significant issue, and you clearly didn't pay attention to how the landscape changed in the meantime.

Again, the problem isn't with people like you. It's with new tanks who are not already established and get dissuaded before even getting there. Your claims only show how dated your experience is.

[Cynical Asshole]

It doesn't.

Let me tell you a secret. The shortage of tanks will be solved when tanks will be allowed to kill stuff in PVP. PVP is a great motivator.

Of course, that's not gonna happen because melee PVP players will whine that tanks are hard to kill.

[potis]

So like 2 - 3 years ago or so, they knew main problem is toxic ppl and still to this day did absolutly nothing agaist it, in the meantime they introduced second expansion will lots of new systems etc and still didnt figure solution to this one "simple" problem of ppl beeing toxic af. Almost like its not easy to solve it without heavly punishing ppl who do it. And with this exp pack when alts will be a thing again, even if they introduce some kind of penalty for leaving key b4 finishing it or some lock for reported toxic acts, ppl will just swap chars.

Not a problem, stop being bad and trying to play above your skill level.

Or find equally bad players and progress together as the game is designed to do so, and stop believing anyone cares about you in an online game.

The argument about toxicity gets boring as fuck, never experienced it, none of my guildies ever experienced it and we are just a HC guild getting AOTC and doing M+ on main/alts.