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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    The least they could have done was give us night elf shaman - for the one race that is entirely based on order with druidsm, the arcane and the divine all being order focused and orientated.
    that sounds like you're taking liberties with how you describe "shamanism"... but this is sort of par for the course with you and elves.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    But they aren’t cults. None are worshipping or fanatically idealists over what they believe to the erasure of all else.

    Illidari are seeking to destroy the burning g legion, not corrupt or destroy the world nor are they fanatical about converting anyone to their cause , persecuting or flaming them for not towing their line.

    Druids of the gang are not cultists despite their cultist lines. Almost everyone into a cause of some sort or focused on something would have something cult like about them. Doesn’t actually make them cults.
    Read what I said.

    From Classic - TBC, Illidari is made out to be a cult, from the Scryers. We are playing this version of WoW from the Scryers' point of view. The Magistrix tells you that more Elves are being trained in the art of the Demon Hunter and becoming twisted abominations of their former selves.
    We didn't know Illidan's goal at the time, so yes - I do believe that the Illidari, from the TBC point of view, was a cult.

    Druids of the Fang - they became cultists with what they were doing to the Caverns and to Naralex.
    Hammull Runetotem refers to them as a Cult as they began twisted the Caverns and potentially, the entirety of the Barrens, into their personal views.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    that sounds like you're taking liberties with how you describe "shamanism"... but this is sort of par for the course with you and elves.
    It's not shamanism.

    The only race that can safely say it has an extremely order focus and orientation would be the Mag'har Orc Shamanism.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    Read what I said.

    From Classic - TBC, Illidari is made out to be a cult, from the Scryers. We are playing this version of WoW from the Scryers' point of view. The Magistrix tells you that more Elves are being trained in the art of the Demon Hunter and becoming twisted abominations of their former selves.
    We didn't know Illidan's goal at the time, so yes - I do believe that the Illidari, from the TBC point of view, was a cult.
    Still not a cult

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    Druids of the Fang - they became cultists with what they were doing to the Caverns and to Naralex.
    Hammull Runetotem refers to them as a Cult as they began twisted the Caverns and potentially, the entirety of the Barrens, into their personal views.
    They seemed like mindless or out of their mind people due to corruption. Not a group that willingly signed up to an ideology because they believed it was right or desired power or whatever dark thing.

    In their case, unknown to them, a corruption from a dark power corrupts them, it's not like cultists of the damned, who seek such dark powers and such powers then corrupt them in every way.

  4. #64
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    Mace, you overthink things that involve Elves. It's a trend of yours, whereas seeing non-elves doing anything you just give them the typical NPC treatment "them just orcs being orcs".

    There are just as many dwarves, trolls, Tauren in the Primalist faction too. Is this virtual racism?

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    Well to be honest and the Spoilers that come in the Story. The kaldorei have every reason to despise the Dragons.

    It's more because of what the kinematics show. The Dragons could heal the Kaldorei lands that the Horde destroyed in the 4th war and surely Teldrazzil too. But surely they won't.

    PS: Oh and remember that Tyrande hasn't planted the seed yet... why is this good... reasons
    The dragons literally gave then the tree and were the reason the nightelves had immortality.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    I’d love to see how this happened.

    The primalist faction (main antagonists) in DF has a lot of night elves. Who want the primal chaos of the elements reinstated and the titans work removed.

    The least they could have done was give us night elf shaman - for the one race that is entirely based on order with druidsm, the arcane and the divine all being order focused and orientated.

    The demon hunters wielding fel had a damn good story as to why and how that happens and how they become the best at it. Or would this be even worse than the Fandral NElves - they also at least had a feasible explanation as Fandral became old god corrupted even though it was a waste of a character, but hey

    I wonder what this story would be
    So looking at the game data that is uploaded on wowhead there is only 1 type of 'Primalist' within the events and thats the "Primalist Stormchanter" NONE of the other types of Primalists are Night Elves there are more Blood Elves than Night Elves. There are actually a lot more Dwarves and Tauren and Trolls than any other race.

    I think you should stop overthinking that these Night Elves are just a race specifically chosen to represent the Primalists for a reason and they are now a race of "Elemental Chaos Elves". Try to not overthink it because it looks like you are and you need to step back and think 'maybe it is just a game and they chose a handful of races to use' and there isnt a huge amount of story behind the chosen races. Like Draenei Primalists or Vulpera Primalists that were used.....or dont you care about them because they arent Elves/Night Elves? What about the Blood Elves....do you want to make up a story about them too??


    Edit: Also....Night Elves are only a recent race to allow Arcane back. so i wouldnt go saying they are a race "that is entirely based on order with druidsm, the arcane and the divine all being order focused and orientated" and Druidism is probably more "Life-based" and not "Order-based"
    Last edited by Hobbidaggy; 2022-11-28 at 03:44 AM.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    ... The Dragons could heal the Kaldorei lands that the Horde destroyed in the 4th war and surely Teldrazzil too ....
    The dragons don't really have an obligation to do that. Like if they start solving one mortal race's problems (and NE do count as one, however long they live), why not the other mortal races?

    Teldrassil was created without the involvement of the Dragons, so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    The Primalists have nameless mook members of all races, from Night Elves to Trolls to Humans. They're not predominantly Night Elves, nor are they led by a Night Elf as the head humanoid Primalist who frees Raszageth is actually a Tauren, namely Kurog Grimtotem. Koroleth, who is a Night Elf, is one of their named members - but they're counted among Kurog, Balakar (a centaur), and Stoneheart (a furbolg) as the secondary leaders.
    Frankly, it all feels like "Cataclysm 2 : Electric Boogaloo".

    Replace primalist dragons with Deathwing and Twilight Dragons, Primalist cult with Twilight's Hammer. Also, after people dealt with not only these enemies but literally the Old Gods (terrible lore decision, BTW) are we really supposed to be afraid of a bunch of rogue shamans and Miss flying boar?

  8. #68
    If I had to imagine a particular underlying cause for it, I'd attribute this to the Burning of Teldrassil. It's very likely that many Elves were traumatized by the event, and, owing to Elune's relative inaction, found themselves lost and vulnerable. Due to the elemental nature of their genocide, I could see why the Primalists in particular may draw their attention. Generally, they're just prime meat for cults now. Even if it isn't thematic to the race as it was, the identity, faith, and ultimately sanity of the Night Elves has likely been shaken by the (continuously unavenged) atrocities committed against them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Nevermind even that freebie I gave Blizz. Are there orcs too?
    To speak in their defense, it makes sense from the perspective of Dark Iron Dwarves previously being subjugated to a Fire Elemental. We already know that some look back on Ragnaros with fondness—it would be a suicidal degree of stupidity, accounting for the Primalists' opposition to the Titans, but there are all kinds of mental gymnastics that could be used to escape that realization ("Well, actually, it was the Old Gods who really made us free-thinking beings", "well, we're more defined by our relationship with elementals than with the Titans", "well, the Titans wrought us from the stone they subjugated" etc.). It's a little harder to justify the Bronzebeard Dwarves, though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    Blood Elves.
    Blood Elves? Now that doesn't make sense to me.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    ... that's short sighted - every race is different.. sure there are comonalities across board, but some are definitely more prone to somethings and less prone to others, you harp on about blood elves being good at magic, (typically forgetting that comes ENTIRELY from their night elven ancestory - burt that's another discussion] , yet skill and expertise are not the only things races can be different from others to varying degrees ...
    That experience is no guarantee of wisdom or lack of personal fallability has been amply demonstrated in the lore several times over, by creatures several times older than even night elves.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    Well the point was we shouldn't see any of them. I remember in classic where night elves were never cultists, they weren't that foolish, not the Darnassian lot anyway, which fits their story of zenith civilization elves, that learn a harsh lesson, gain real wisdom, and after living so long are just not that easily duped.
    I feel this also connects well to my main point—I think their general stability as a race has probably eroded under the extraordinary pressures of their genocide. Their faith in Elune has probably been shaken, they saw their ancient race finally toppled by a newer, younger set of races, and everything that generally underpinned Night Elven society has been overturned. It's likely that many of them were without options, and so decided to abandon their civilization to look for alternatives. Their identity as Night Elves may have once kept them stable, but the Night Elven identity has been shaken, and perhaps destroyed, by their genocide.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ropeway View Post
    That experience is no guarantee of wisdom or lack of personal fallability has been amply demonstrated in the lore several times over, by creatures several times older than even night elves.
    See also: having ten thousand years to scientifically and culturally develop to compensate for the lack of the arcane and choosing to remain eco-nationalist misandrists until someone who figured out steam conquered them in a week.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    See also: having ten thousand years to scientifically and culturally develop to compensate for the lack of the arcane and choosing to remain eco-nationalist misandrists until someone who figured out steam conquered them in a week.
    To be fair, they haven't been "conquered" yet, despite whatever losses they have suffered. Not the word I'd use.

    As for Teldrassil, it's part of a marked pattern in WoW lore that continues from the old days. Of the Alliance races having it's cities nuked by Horde and suffering genocide, without any appreciable provocation (Dranei in Outland, Stormwind, Theramore and now Teldrassil), and still refusing to learn their lesson.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
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    Blood Elves? Now that doesn't make sense to me.
    I suppose we just have to overthink it, like Mace does for Night Elves.

    As a Blood Elf fan, those Mage Primalists could be former Banshee Loyalists who grew to hate Lorthemar. Siding against the former Ranger General and seemingly forgetting the actions of Jaina Proudmoore.

    They could also be Sunreaver Blood Elves, who were Banshee Loyalists and clung to the ideals of Hathorel.

  13. #73
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ropeway View Post
    Frankly, it all feels like "Cataclysm 2 : Electric Boogaloo".

    Replace primalist dragons with Deathwing and Twilight Dragons, Primalist cult with Twilight's Hammer. Also, after people dealt with not only these enemies but literally the Old Gods (terrible lore decision, BTW) are we really supposed to be afraid of a bunch of rogue shamans and Miss flying boar?
    There are certainly some refrains that are reminiscent of Cata, yes. A focus on dragons and the elements, cultists worshipping both, etc. That being said, the Incarnates definitely do seem like a threat - not on the level of the Lich King or the Old Gods, per se; but still something to be taken care of before it spirals beyond control.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    I feel this also connects well to my main point—I think their general stability as a race has probably eroded under the extraordinary pressures of their genocide. Their faith in Elune has probably been shaken, they saw their ancient race finally toppled by a newer, younger set of races, and everything that generally underpinned Night Elven society has been overturned. It's likely that many of them were without options, and so decided to abandon their civilization to look for alternatives. Their identity as Night Elves may have once kept them stable, but the Night Elven identity has been shaken, and perhaps destroyed, by their genocide.

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    See also: having ten thousand years to scientifically and culturally develop to compensate for the lack of the arcane and choosing to remain eco-nationalist misandrists until someone who figured out steam conquered them in a week.
    But two important factors must be considered that significantly alter or should alter our perceptions significantly.

    1. It is a race of large key the same people who have been living for over 10,000 years.
    2. They are adept at changing their society to meet the needs of the day even if it is a massive shift.

    For example, the core group willingly gave up using the arcane (not gave up the arcane) for 10j years to deny the legion returning to Azeroth though this significantly changed how they lived - they did so.

    They were also willling to change that way if living when it was no longer required - when thebKegion returned seeing them come out of isolation, return to civilization and arcane magic back in


    Shows a level of pragmatism threat shows their changes are often exaggerated by fans. The entire long vigil is zealous cause to prevent world annhilation. Not an anti arcane anti civilization religious view point.

    This shows that their identity is actually neither in the arcane nor nature. Elune is probably the common theme in both eras and wher the e heart of their identity lies. Hence Kaldorei - children of the stars that had mixture of both arcane and nature elements.

    Can their core have been shaken so much some would willing follow a cult that worships the Incarnates? Or are the motivations for the night elves joining some sort of rebellion against Elune and alll she stands for of which order, the divine (light) and life are the core things associated with her. Which represent the 3 areas night elves are most gifted at in that order.

    Perhaps they are actually fed up with Order and Elune and nature too because the incarnated reject all things tiran and related. Nature evolves from the arcane ordering of the world and life magic is the inner magic that comes from the beings who’s existence is ordered by such. After all elementals do not need food and plants to live.

    So all things arcane and nature are tied to the titans and Elune the great life champion who’s arcane ordering through the well is spawning the elves into they are.

    But I would think the conclusion of shadowlands puts to rest those doubts and faith in Elune is restored for them all.

    So where do we get night elves involved in this?

    Interesting point about them in decline though and shaken.

    However. It was most of the younger less experienced that died. Many of the 10k + ancients survived the genocide , many either being away sailing from Silithus or doing the portals for the evacuation. The ancient land - Druids, mages and sentinels of note and age were all absent in the key struggle they lost.

    Those would be even less likely to turn cultist. They’ve seen worse in the war if tho e ancients which was a much bigger genocide.

    Perhaps it’s some of the surviving younger ones who’ve experienced much of the recent defeats and none of the ancient powerful victories and empowerments.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    To speak in their defense, it makes sense from the perspective of Dark Iron Dwarves previously being subjugated to a Fire Elemental. We already know that some look back on Ragnaros with fondness—it would be a suicidal degree of stupidity, accounting for the Primalists' opposition to the Titans, but there are all kinds of mental gymnastics that could be used to escape that realization ("Well, actually, it was the Old Gods who really made us free-thinking beings", "well, we're more defined by our relationship with elementals than with the Titans", "well, the Titans wrought us from the stone they subjugated" etc.). It's a little harder to justify the Bronzebeard Dwarves, though.
    Point regarding the Dark Irons actually, there's no real issue with them, at a stretch you could push Wildhammer given the elemental angle. Really, the demographics of the cult being discussable at all would be a shock given how WoW cults (and heroic organisations) are invariably a disjointed Burger King Kids Club. I'm not surprised this topic exists, much like the people who were rending their clothes around the undead night elves as if night elves need a special reason where other reasons don't to be antagonistic cannon fodder, but it's as banal as it gets.

    Blood elves wanting to retvrn to the time when they were nine foot tall and buff.

    @Mace

    I won't bother with the rest since I've given my thoughts on how much I think this is at all an issue meriting discussion. On your last post I am interested in a walk-through of the reasoning wherein younger night elves would be the ones worse affected mentally and multiple milennia-old people who in the span of like twenty years lost most of their land, most of their population, their ethos regarding magic and their isolationist culture to become a vassal state under a teenager would be less so.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2022-11-28 at 05:07 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

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  16. #76
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    Next expansion, nightelf shamans, still no nightelf paladins.

  17. #77
    In my own rewrite, I differentiate "elementalism" from "shamanism."

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Point regarding the Dark Irons actually, there's no real issue with them, at a stretch you could push Wildhammer given the elemental angle. Really, the demographics of the cult being discussable at all would be a shock given how WoW cults (and heroic organisations) are invariably a disjointed Burger King Kids Club. I'm not surprised this topic exists, much like the people who were rending their clothes around the undead night elves as if night elves need a special reason where other reasons don't to be antagonistic cannon fodder, but it's as banal as it gets.
    Honestly, I do think these topics aren't bad per se. If people ask more questions about the niceties of different races' involvement in certain cults, I don't really mind—the only problem is that these threads only ever seem to pop up in regards to Elves. I think it would make the setting far deeper and more interesting if individual races had more reasons explicitly laid forward to explain their involvement in the aforementioned Burger King Kids' Clubs that constitute the cults of Azeroth, it's just that these probably ought to extend beyond Elves and to every race, and raising questions about the Elves in the Primalists but not, say, the Draenei in the Wyrmcult seems kind of odd.

    Either way, Elfjerkers will Elfjerk, so this isn't really unusual by the standards of this forum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    In my own rewrite, I differentiate "elementalism" from "shamanism."
    A fellow rewriter. Sweet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    As a Blood Elf fan, those Mage Primalists could be former Banshee Loyalists who grew to hate Lorthemar. Siding against the former Ranger General and seemingly forgetting the actions of Jaina Proudmoore.
    Eh, somewhat sensible, but admittedly can't see it working out that way. There's no reason for them to really join the Primalists in particular and if they're really pissed off they can just go and join the Void Elves in Telogrus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    But two important factors must be considered that significantly alter or should alter our perceptions significantly.

    1. It is a race of large key the same people who have been living for over 10,000 years.
    2. They are adept at changing their society to meet the needs of the day even if it is a massive shift.

    For example, the core group willingly gave up using the arcane (not gave up the arcane) for 10j years to deny the legion returning to Azeroth though this significantly changed how they lived - they did so.

    They were also willling to change that way if living when it was no longer required - when thebKegion returned seeing them come out of isolation, return to civilization and arcane magic back in
    This is fair. However, I would also note that 10,000 years of life doesn't seem to translate directly into maturity for many Night Elves—I wouldn't exactly call, say, Fandral or Maiev mature people who took the lessons of their society to heart. If anything, it seems like they spent their 10,000 years letting their worst traits be exacerbated and come to a head after their respective personal tragedies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    Shows a level of pragmatism threat shows their changes are often exaggerated by fans. The entire long vigil is zealous cause to prevent world annhilation. Not an anti arcane anti civilization religious view point.
    I'd say I'm not really under any impression of the latter. I understand fully it's out of vigilance—better yet, the term "paranoia" can be used. They effectively willfully set back their society out of fear that if they even developed a smidge, they'd destroy the planet again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    This shows that their identity is actually neither in the arcane nor nature. Elune is probably the common theme in both eras and wher the e heart of their identity lies. Hence Kaldorei - children of the stars that had mixture of both arcane and nature elements.

    Can their core have been shaken so much some would willing follow a cult that worships the Incarnates? Or are the motivations for the night elves joining some sort of rebellion against Elune and alll she stands for of which order, the divine (light) and life are the core things associated with her. Which represent the 3 areas night elves are most gifted at in that order.
    It's presumably both. I'd imagine that some fringe group among the Night Elves has been so thoroughly shaken that the pillars of their society are no longer relevant—the Emerald Dream has spent quite a while being preyed on by the Emerald Nightmare, their culture has consistently failed them and continued to decline into subordination to younger races, and most recently their capital was destroyed while their goddess, depending on the information the Night Elves have access to as a society by now, either stood and watched or actively exacerbated the problem dramatically.

    In fact, it's probably especially bad if Tyrande publicized the news about Elune—the message that would probably be given to many Night Elves is "our beloved goddess is not only fallible, but also a complete, blithering dolt".

    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    However. It was most of the younger less experienced that died. Many of the 10k + ancients survived the genocide , many either being away sailing from Silithus or doing the portals for the evacuation. The ancient land - Druids, mages and sentinels of note and age were all absent in the key struggle they lost.

    Those would be even less likely to turn cultist. They’ve seen worse in the war if tho e ancients which was a much bigger genocide.

    Perhaps it’s some of the surviving younger ones who’ve experienced much of the recent defeats and none of the ancient powerful victories and empowerments.
    As Dickmann said, I do think that it's possible that the years would wear down the remaining Night Elves, and seeing the final bastion of their civilization of 10,000 years destroyed would be good reason for some Night Elves to finally give up on Elune, Druidism, and the other pillars of Night Elven society, especially since none of those really served to protect them against their genocide. They're ultimately probably not really acting as typical archetypal Night Elves anymore so much as individuals who have cast away the religion and culture of their race entirely. I should note the aforementioned Fandral and Maiev again—both have lived for 10,000 years, sure, but neither were really any better for it. In fact, once their sources of stability were somehow upset or destroyed, they fell into their worst traits and the former ended up going rogue entirely. If such a precedent exists for those Night Elves, it stands to reason that the same may go for some other Night Elves, as well. Ten thousand years is a long time for anything to be alive—it's markedly older than fully-centralized human civilization in our world. However, it's also a very long time for someone to exacerbate their own instability, to be embittered, and to experience trauma. There are plenty of Night Elves who may have been driven to the brink partially as a consequence of their age, not in spite of it.

    As for the youth, I think you underestimate how exponential birth rates even for a primitive race with low fertility are. Even assuming that a substantial portion of the original population of Night Elves survived the sundering and proceeded to remain Night Elves over the subsequent ten millennia, ten millennia is a very long time for the population to continue breeding. There are likely far more (relatively) young Night Elves than you may expect, even if there are very few children now. It's also worth noting that there doesn't need to be a particularly large population of Night Elves in the Primalists—we don't know what their in-universe demographic populations are actually supposed to be, so they may still constitute a minority in what is already probably something of a fringe group.

    I definitely feel like it's mostly the latter camp, though, mostly for the fact that they've simply spent most of their lives seeing their institutions and culture failing. They'd have lived as a fairly primitive culture that has continually seen everything that it's founded itself on fail. The Emerald Dream was being corrupted by the Nightmare for some time, the influence of the Night Elves simply continued to diminish, and ultimately even their Goddess seemingly abandoned them in their time of need (insofar as most Night Elves would know—assuming that Tyrande brought back the information about Elune's intentions, it's even worse because they now know their goddess is also very, very dumb).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I won't bother with the rest since I've given my thoughts on how much I think this is at all an issue meriting discussion. On your last post I am interested in a walk-through of the reasoning wherein younger night elves would be the ones worse affected mentally and multiple milennia-old people who in the span of like twenty years lost most of their land, most of their population, their ethos regarding magic and their isolationist culture to become a vassal state under a teenager would be less so.
    Don't forget being lectured on patience by the aforementioned teenager's brash arena fighter father.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    A fellow rewriter. Sweet.
    It's...cathartic.
    My addiction.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Ropeway View Post
    Frankly, it all feels like "Cataclysm 2 : Electric Boogaloo".

    Replace primalist dragons with Deathwing and Twilight Dragons, Primalist cult with Twilight's Hammer. Also, after people dealt with not only these enemies but literally the Old Gods (terrible lore decision, BTW) are we really supposed to be afraid of a bunch of rogue shamans and Miss flying boar?
    it does... but don't worry, just wait for the good ol' Danuser subversion in an upcoming patch, and we'll be off away from this being Cata 2.0 into what Danuser and his writing team are doing with the warcraft lore - garbage.


    also to @Mace, remember you're trying to make sense of a story written by Danuser and his writing team, i.e. don't bother with that. As they showed in BFA/SL, Danuser and Co. just write w.e they want and are adding w.e they want with no regard to established lore and history.

    And this is especially made worse when it comes to night elves, as Blizzard must shit on the night elves whenever they get some story. For example, the recent interview with Danuser's "explanation" of why it's totally fine that Malfurion is getting f***ed this expansion was just so dumb.

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