The return of the casual?

[Cynical Asshole]

The GOGOGO NEVER EXPLAIN attitude in dungeons, which, whilst kinda sorta justified in M+ being applied to the most basic levelling dungeons (which is what fucked Guild Wars 2, note) is a symptom of how hostile the playerbase is too, to less time-dedicating players who don't know everything backwards (ironically the people who do this are often extremely ignorant, but they THINK they know everything, which is the issue). I'm not talking dungeon journal stuff either.

Yeah, I fucking "LOVE IT" when some random says "What are you doing?" or "You guys are noobs" without elaborating on what the fuck I/we are doing wrong, followed by a kick/leave.

Truly the most useful of feedback and criticism you can encounter anywhere. People truly do better after being told they're doing something wrong, they don't even need to be told what exactly.

[Osmeric]

I think the problem is they made a game for casuals not for bad players..

Compared to the mythic, or even heroic, raiders, most players *are* bad. Their performance and commitment is way lower.

It's tempting, oh so tempting, to then say "well, if these players aren't going to work at it, they don't deserve a game to enjoy". And no doubt this, and resentment at those players, has had something to do with Blizzard's actions over the years. But for Blizzard this is cutting off their nose to spite their face. Those players, underperforming as they might be, are vital to an MMO. Abandon them and they will abandon you, and here we are. The cursory changes Blizzard is making now are unfocused, a day late and a dollar short.

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Which is what they have been doing for years now, the problem is their refusal to ignore those bad players screaming dear murder and ruining it by dumb decisions.

They have refused to go the distance serving those players. They have grudgingly and incompetently tried to placate them, while continuing to design a game that satisfies the devs' hardcore sensibilities. And this hasn't worked. Those lower performing players know when they're being poorly served.

Your idea there, that they catered to those players too much, is the opposite of reality. No, they could not bring themselves to do what was needed to retain those players, because it would have meant abandoning the hardcore elements of the game.

[Mentaldemise]

As someone who works from home, has no family commitments and no time constraints, I can say that this isn't a "casual" friendly expansion, I don't think blizzard even knows what casual systems are, I've raided every expansion for the past 18 years, pushed mythic keys, glad etc etc and honestly, there's nothing in Dragonflight i saw that said "This is different" it looks like the "casual" systems are just tied to the M+/Raid scene.

I think this expansion being pushed as a casual friendly experience is completely wrong, we all know what the end game is and what its always going to be, anything outside of that is going to feed into the larger picture because that's the intent behind the design, i think what a lot of people mistake casual gaming or casual systems for, actually aren't, if im playing a game casually, i want to know that every time i log in(within reason) there's something to progress through and work on that I can do whenever i want at my leisure.

The sad fact of it is, there isn't anything in Dragonflight that speaks to that, it all ties into the end-game funnel like it has for a decade and is going to leave casual players with the same choice as always, progress into raids, mythic+ or arenas, and that's exactly why this is the first expansion I'm skipping, I don't want to raid or M+ push anymore, and that just means there's nothing for me to put my time into in WoW anymore that isn't going to abruptly end or be time gate/patch content and could be better suited to just playing a game that's geared towards that.

TL;DR casuals may come back but will end up leaving again after a month like usual.

[THEORACLE64]

With most time grind systems being killed and cheat gear that far out scales its difficulty level being heavily restricted...

Will be see a return of the long extinct casual player? The guy who logs in and slowly progresses a character throughout the game maybe does mythic two or three times a week then logs?

I admit I thought this class of player would never return after legion but I think its poised for a comeback now that all the hardcore grinds seemly are removed.

Casuals have never gone anywhere.

[potis]

They have refused to go the distance serving those players. They have grudgingly and incompetently tried to placate them, while continuing to design a game that satisfies the devs' hardcore sensibilities. And this hasn't worked. Those lower performing players know when they're being poorly served.

Your idea there, that they catered to those players too much, is the opposite of reality. No, they could not bring themselves to do what was needed to retain those players, because it would have meant abandoning the hardcore elements of the game.

There are multiple layers of bad players, there isnt only one type.

Blizzard always caters to a small % of them per patch, which basically fucks the game up for the rest, they have been doing ever since Cata basically but at least they havent touched the core gameplay and thats the only redeeming thing WoW has, when it comes to your part of the argument, its non-existent, there is a reason there are 4 difficulties and scaling of everything in the game.

Refusal to partake in what the game offers is your problem, not the game, then again you are part of "Mythic gear for logging on" group on here so i dont really expect a sensible argument.

[czarek]

Casual this is the way. Im season and casual. Play on expansion or major patch. Check out to do list (do raid on normal at least, do KSM, gear up, do story quest line). Playin few hours per week for 1-2 months.

[DarkAmbient]

The expansion is a case of "You think you do but you don't" for those who are wanting a return to a simpler endgame. And after having played the beta, I'm quite sure that the so-called casuals are going to max out dragonriding fairly quickly, maybe try the new dungeons, and then realise they have a choice: raid/mythic plus, or two years of grinding elemental invasions for gear tokens. At that point they're going to quit again.

[Biglog]

DF does seem to be pushing less casual with nudging players towards Mythics for crafting reagents, with professions being such an integral part of DF. There are also a TON of returning players to wow that have been away for quite a while as I'm sure everyone's seen in-game. So heading into DF, it's good to keep that in-mind and be a little extra patient in groups at least early on. Players that are skilled but toxic are just as bad as unskilled "bad" players for groups. There's a fine line to being patient and carrying, but a quick "remember to get the (X)" on a tricky boss to prevent wipe can go a long way towards a smoother run and better time for the group.

As we get a few weeks into DF some of that can taper off. But it's always good practice, especially if someone's in the group says it's their first time there. Especially for returning players that might not realize that most raid and especially dungeon fight mechanics are more complex than they used to be. And it's on players to prepare a bit and know what mechanics to expect in a particular Mythic or raid before going in.

[Celement]

Yeah, I fucking "LOVE IT" when some random says "What are you doing?" or "You guys are noobs" without elaborating on what the fuck I/we are doing wrong, followed by a kick/leave.

Truly the most useful of feedback and criticism you can encounter anywhere. People truly do better after being told they're doing something wrong, they don't even need to be told what exactly.

I don't understand learned helplessness if you know you are fucking up how can you not hit up google to fix it?

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Compared to the mythic, or even heroic, raiders, most players *are* bad. Their performance and commitment is way lower.

It's tempting, oh so tempting, to then say "well, if these players aren't going to work at it, they don't deserve a game to enjoy". And no doubt this, and resentment at those players, has had something to do with Blizzard's actions over the years. But for Blizzard this is cutting off their nose to spite their face. Those players, underperforming as they might be, are vital to an MMO. Abandon them and they will abandon you, and here we are. The cursory changes Blizzard is making now are unfocused, a day late and a dollar short.

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They have refused to go the distance serving those players. They have grudgingly and incompetently tried to placate them, while continuing to design a game that satisfies the devs' hardcore sensibilities. And this hasn't worked. Those lower performing players know when they're being poorly served.

Your idea there, that they catered to those players too much, is the opposite of reality. No, they could not bring themselves to do what was needed to retain those players, because it would have meant abandoning the hardcore elements of the game.

I put something about this either in the post you are quoting or another one.

The multiple difficulties serve different groups. There isn't anything wrong with only doing normal or heroic. I don't get why people only see lfr or mythic as difficulties and ignore the other half of the game lodged between the two.

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The expansion is a case of "You think you do but you don't" for those who are wanting a return to a simpler endgame. And after having played the beta, I'm quite sure that the so-called casuals are going to max out dragonriding fairly quickly, maybe try the new dungeons, and then realise they have a choice: raid/mythic plus, or two years of grinding elemental invasions for gear tokens. At that point they're going to quit again.

That would be the best case scenario for everyone. I don't get people who want a single player mmo. Even for that niche arguably ff, guildwars, and runescape are better.

[ClownPrincess]

I don't understand learned helplessness if you know you are fucking up how can you not hit up google to fix it?

Why would you want to listen to some idiot screaming in a video game, much less agree with them and go out of your way to help them?

[Zorachus]

With most time grind systems being killed and cheat gear that far out scales its difficulty level being heavily restricted...

Will be see a return of the long extinct casual player? The guy who logs in and slowly progresses a character throughout the game maybe does mythic two or three times a week then logs?

I admit I thought this class of player would never return after legion but I think its poised for a comeback now that all the hardcore grinds seemly are removed.

That's how I play lately, and been subbed since launch back in 2004. Since BfA and SL, I still play regularly, but way less hours, sometimes just do my Renown stuff, and get the dailies done, and maybe do 1 or 2 dungeons a week, and no Raids. Very casual, laid back, no stress, not caring for having the best iGear score, I really don't care what my iLvl is anymore, as long as I'm close to Normal Raid gear iLvl I'm happy.

Legion was by far my most fav expansion of the last ten years or so. Tons to do in that with all the Class Hall stuff, and Artifact weapons, and mounts, etc...

[Polybius]

I don't understand learned helplessness if you know you are fucking up how can you not hit up google to fix it?

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I put something about this either in the post you are quoting or another one.

The multiple difficulties serve different groups. There isn't anything wrong with only doing normal or heroic. I don't get why people only see lfr or mythic as difficulties and ignore the other half of the game lodged between the two.

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That would be the best case scenario for everyone. I don't get people who want a single player mmo. Even for that niche arguably ff, guildwars, and runescape are better.

Outdoor content was never like this in WoW. It was more engaging when hard encounters required a group. Legion's prepatch is the best recent example for anyone who boarded WoW late. No one but hardcore players asked for a ridiculous amount of difficulty tiers in PvE, the rewards and difficulties eventually trickled down (e.g. players asking for +15, then +20, now +25 rewards).

[La]

I don't think WoW is a game for casuals and there's only ever been very little side content for that type of thing, let alone the complete disregard for alts for years. You want a casual game, you play FF14/GW2 or.. any other MMO, really. If we're talking actual PvE content, you're either working with a schedule, devoting a lot of time, or probably getting yelled at in PUGs.

Whether you can find some enjoyment out of it all is a different story, but you've got far more enjoyable games to give you a far more positive experience than this.

[Foreign Exchange Ztudent]

No, Dragonflight is for the hardcore three pillar community. Blizzard's lack of integration systems and structures will mean that the ilvl gap won't matter too much as casuals will not be integrated into the game.

Casuals still have to engage with the Legion activity system in an even more bland boring streamlined way that feels emotionless and distant to the world that the content is placed in.

[Cosmic Janitor]

As someone who works from home, has no family commitments and no time constraints, I can say that this isn't a "casual" friendly expansion, I don't think blizzard even knows what casual systems are, I've raided every expansion for the past 18 years, pushed mythic keys, glad etc etc and honestly, there's nothing in Dragonflight i saw that said "This is different" it looks like the "casual" systems are just tied to the M+/Raid scene.

Agreed. Most of the "casual" changes just seem to be aimed at adressing the complaint of the hardcore crowd that felt (to some degree justifiably) forced to participate in endless sideshow grinds. I don't see much in stock for the casual players that don't want to hard commit to schedules and rides through the haunted house of the group finder cesspool. And before someone comes along blaming the casuals, these endless grinds were not engaging or interesting for casual players either. They really only serve to generate faux engagement that looks good on some statistics.

[Lurker1]

Thats generally how I play.

I just want to kill monsters, get cool loot and have fun.

I don't need super mega ultra pound you in the ass mythic to do that.

i only do world content and maybe lfr that is pretty much it for me but i wont lie i did do fated lfr it was a bit harder to do but nothing crazy.

[Opeth69]

I don't think WoW is a game for casuals and there's only ever been very little side content for that type of thing, let alone the complete disregard for alts for years. You want a casual game, you play FF14/GW2 or.. any other MMO, really. If we're talking actual PvE content, you're either working with a schedule, devoting a lot of time, or probably getting yelled at in PUGs.

Whether you can find some enjoyment out of it all is a different story, but you've got far more enjoyable games to give you a far more positive experience than this.

This is very true. I dont have the flexibility or time to commit permanently 2/3 evenings a week to a game, so WoW's essentially not worth it anymore. Pugging is a horrible experience, and M+ feels a bit dull, especially as best PvE rewards still come from high end raiding.

I wish WoW had some content that was challenging, with high level rewards (comparable to mythic raiding), that didnt rely on you treating the game like a second job to accomplish at a reasonable pace.

[Tikishock]

Thats generally how I play.

I just want to kill monsters, get cool loot and have fun.

I don't need super mega ultra pound you in the ass mythic to do that.

You may not NEED super mega ultra pound you in the ass mythic but...do you MISS IT???

[Celement]

This is very true. I dont have the flexibility or time to commit permanently 2/3 evenings a week to a game, so WoW's essentially not worth it anymore. Pugging is a horrible experience, and M+ feels a bit dull, especially as best PvE rewards still come from high end raiding.

I wish WoW had some content that was challenging, with high level rewards (comparable to mythic raiding), that didnt rely on you treating the game like a second job to accomplish at a reasonable pace.

So you want challenging hard content... but you don't want to lose more then a few times or it becomes a second job..?

Gee why don't they make content like that.

[Osmeric]

So you want challenging hard content... but you don't want to lose more then a few times or it becomes a second job..?

Gee why don't they make content like that.

I think most of the time when people say they want hard content they don't actually mean it. Certainly when content is made harder Blizzard has consistently seen decline in its uptake.