Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Makabreska]

So, let’s say that same Russian denounced his russian citizenship, now he only has the finnish citizenship.

Does that really make you feel better? You think it’s the passport that allows them to spy?

Well, this described situation would first require dual citizenship to happen. Double passport may not be the deciding spy factor, but it may make it easier for them.

[Veggie50]

Well, this described situation would first require dual citizenship to happen. Double passport may not be the deciding spy factor, but it may make it easier for them.

Why would dual citizenship be required? If the russian one is surrendered when the finnish one is granted, theres always only one citizenship.

Unless the argument is; “we shouldn’t allow people to immigrate”. That opens a whole other can of wurms.

Also, and this is not meant to be snarky, but as a challenge to your assertion, by which mechanism would a second passport make spying easier? It literally means you’re on the governments radar.

[Iphie]

Why would dual citizenship be required? If the russian one is surrendered when the finnish one is granted, theres always only one citizenship.

Unless the argument is; “we shouldn’t allow people to immigrate”. That opens a whole other can of wurms.

Also, and this is not meant to be snarky, but as a challenge to your assertion, by which mechanism would a second passport make spying easier? It literally means you’re on the governments radar.

You wouldn't need a visa to travel between, for example, russia and Finland, so that makes it easier to meet handlers in another country, that goes double if your passports have different visa exemptions, my Dutch passport has different exemptions from a russian passport. It would also allow you to visit the Arabian countries and Israel by using the different passports as they are excluding each other.

As long a you're not doing anything illegal. or do not appear to do anything illegal, no government will keep tabs on you if you are a dual citizen.

[Slant]

So, let’s say that same Russian denounced his russian citizenship, now he only has the finnish citizenship.

Does that really make you feel better? You think it’s the passport that allows them to spy?

Spies aren't the problem, because they just print passports anyway, they typically don't ask for permission to go somewhere.

We're talking about ordinary citizens.

[Veggie50]

Spies aren't the problem, because they just print passports anyway, they typically don't ask for permission to go somewhere.

We're talking about ordinary citizens.

No, the poster im responding to specifically called spies the problem.

Not that the same doesn’t go for ordinary citizens… the problem isn’t the double passport, dual citizenship thing. It’s having divided loyalties that can, in specific circumstances, be problematic.

It is a problem that cannot be solved though, unless every country goes full xenophobe. Sometimes it’s better to just accept things as they are, for the greater good.

[Ettan]

no government will keep tabs on you if you are a dual citizen.

That would depend alot on the country of origin. And without going much further into that

To serve here (nor) in a real capacity you will need security clearance, and you will not get security clearance if either of your parents are from a non aligned country.
You could be born here and lived all your life here with a spotless record, this still doesn't give you a green light. Its not 100% impossible, but it would be next to impossible to obtain clearance. And yea we are not even talking about very high clearance here, just the basic, about on par with level one data access in the private sector.

That said you can still stay in the army even w/o clearance, but it would be a very limited service; typically canteen/mess work (cutting potatoes and making tacoes on fridays and the like).

This is nothing new either, you can go back ~60 years+ such a policy has been in place for a very long time.

Our media still likes to drum up these cases every now and then to create "discussion" on the matter.
ala boys mother lived here for 26 years, he dreamed to be a fighter pilot, now he has to rely on social services and bla bla bla.

But in truth there is nothing to discuss.
Its simply a security matter, where the individuals right of expression does not trump the security of the state.

[Gabriel]

So, let’s say that same Russian denounced his russian citizenship, now he only has the finnish citizenship.

Does that really make you feel better? You think it’s the passport that allows them to spy?

It does. Pick one country, and stick to it.

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Spies aren't the problem, because they just print passports anyway, they typically don't ask for permission to go somewhere.

We're talking about ordinary citizens.

They very much are. We had lectures about not giving away basic information to anyone we meet, no matter how innocent their questions might seem like, while I was doing my mandatory service.

Russians have literally been sending old people to pick berries in forested areas where the Finnish military is holding exercises and randomly bump into service members asking for seemingly innocent questions about their gear and stuff, and the Finnish military intelligence has identified these berry pickers as russian spies because the same old people appear right next to military drills all over Finland.

It is bizarrely naive to think that russia doesn't send people with dual citizenship to spy on the military during the mandatory service.

[Ettan]

Loyalty is not in question btw. Not even the issue.

I will illustrate.

You are a second/third generation immigrant with a parent from xyz country.
> you join the army of your birth country and obtain a position with sensitive information

You are not a spy, your parents are completely fine also, completely normal people.

Now xyz country picks up the former friends / colleagues / relatives / loved ones of the parent that at one time lived in xyz country.
> contacts your parent
Your child will do this or that, or xyz will torture and kill these people.
> he relents, starts sending bits and pieces of his past to him.

> unless he is a monster your parent contacts you and puts pressure on you

What do you do in that position?
It would be very human of you to comply, do what xyz wants and not report this.

And that is the issue, the people still inside country xyz are utterly under the power of xyz (just pawns that they can do anything to, for any and no reason at all).

[Iphie]

That would depend alot on the country of origin. And without going much further into that

That's actually true, I generalised. Eritrea is particularly bad when it comes to control of it's expat citizens.

[Kaleredar]

Loyalty is not in question btw. Not even the issue.

I will illustrate.

You are a second/third generation immigrant with a parent from xyz country.
> you join the army of your birth country and obtain a position with sensitive information

You are not a spy, your parents are completely fine also, completely normal people.

Now xyz country picks up the former friends / colleagues / relatives / loved ones of the parent that at one time lived in xyz country.
> contacts your parent
Your child will do this or that, or xyz will torture and kill these people.
> he relents, starts sending bits and pieces of his past to him.

> unless he is a monster your parent contacts you and puts pressure on you

What do you do in that position?
It would be very human of you to comply, do what xyz wants and not report this.

And that is the issue, the people still inside country xyz are utterly under the power of xyz (just pawns that they can do anything to, for any and no reason at all).

…couldn’t they do that regardless of who has citizenship where?

Even if the parent from xyz had revoked their initial citizenship xyz could always still round up whomever still lives within their borders that knew them and threaten them unless their child turn over sensitive information, no?

At any rate I think we’re getting a bit in the weeds with this theoretical citizenship/loyalty brouhaha. I doubt that it plays that major of a role outside of what more conventional spying and anonymous online Russian trolls claiming to be from the US or EU already accomplish.

And if it’s Russias goal to use dual citizenship to learn top secret military whatevers via what are effectively sleeper agents in the scenarios other posters mentioned then their spectacular failure in this engagement basically from the start sure as shit demonstrated that they really haven’t learned a thing.

[Veggie50]

Loyalty is not in question btw. Not even the issue.

I will illustrate.

You are a second/third generation immigrant with a parent from xyz country.
> you join the army of your birth country and obtain a position with sensitive information

You are not a spy, your parents are completely fine also, completely normal people.

Now xyz country picks up the former friends / colleagues / relatives / loved ones of the parent that at one time lived in xyz country.
> contacts your parent
Your child will do this or that, or xyz will torture and kill these people.
> he relents, starts sending bits and pieces of his past to him.

> unless he is a monster your parent contacts you and puts pressure on you

What do you do in that position?
It would be very human of you to comply, do what xyz wants and not report this.

And that is the issue, the people still inside country xyz are utterly under the power of xyz (just pawns that they can do anything to, for any and no reason at all).

Agreed, the problem is foreign governments can put pressure on them by threatening family. That has nothing to do with having two passports though.

[Ettan]

…couldn’t they do that regardless of who has citizenship where?

I mean technically? Sure.
But that would be vastly more difficult. Kidnapping in a foreign country is for obvious reasons abit more involved.

Whereas just looking up your dads/mums file/past and just sending the local police to pick up any people that remotely fits the description of close ties; would be very simple in a totalitarian regime.

[Flarelaine]

Only if we all speak German.

Alle Menschen werden Brüder.

[Slant]

No, the poster im responding to specifically called spies the problem.

Not that the same doesn’t go for ordinary citizens… the problem isn’t the double passport, dual citizenship thing. It’s having divided loyalties that can, in specific circumstances, be problematic.

It is a problem that cannot be solved though, unless every country goes full xenophobe. Sometimes it’s better to just accept things as they are, for the greater good.

For whose greater good? I don't give a shit if Russians are unhappy that they can't live in Germany. They should turn their country around if it's such an uncomfortable place...

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It does. Pick one country, and stick to it.

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They very much are. We had lectures about not giving away basic information to anyone we meet, no matter how innocent their questions might seem like, while I was doing my mandatory service.

Russians have literally been sending old people to pick berries in forested areas where the Finnish military is holding exercises and randomly bump into service members asking for seemingly innocent questions about their gear and stuff, and the Finnish military intelligence has identified these berry pickers as russian spies because the same old people appear right next to military drills all over Finland.

It is bizarrely naive to think that russia doesn't send people with dual citizenship to spy on the military during the mandatory service.

They would do that with or without dial citizenship. It's not like the Finnish/Russian border is the most secure on the planet.

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Loyalty is not in question btw. Not even the issue.

I will illustrate.

You are a second/third generation immigrant with a parent from xyz country.
> you join the army of your birth country and obtain a position with sensitive information

You are not a spy, your parents are completely fine also, completely normal people.

Now xyz country picks up the former friends / colleagues / relatives / loved ones of the parent that at one time lived in xyz country.
> contacts your parent
Your child will do this or that, or xyz will torture and kill these people.
> he relents, starts sending bits and pieces of his past to him.

> unless he is a monster your parent contacts you and puts pressure on you

What do you do in that position?
It would be very human of you to comply, do what xyz wants and not report this.

And that is the issue, the people still inside country xyz are utterly under the power of xyz (just pawns that they can do anything to, for any and no reason at all).

You're using too many letters, but if another nation picked up my friends that I've rarely met cos I'm a third generation guy in my country, I'd probably tell them to go fuck themselves. Like wtf is that scenario even?

[Iphie]

Meanwhile: projected russian casualties coming winter.

The callousness with which their lives are expended just boggles the mind.

[Jaransan]

Spies aren't the problem, because they just print passports anyway, they typically don't ask for permission to go somewhere.

We're talking about ordinary citizens.

Sorry to interject here - I don’t have a dog in this multiple citizenship thing - but ordinary citizens are the ones that have done the bulk of the spying for a while now. The FBI or CIA or whatever doesn’t send its own people to do things, it sends what amounts to private investigators, or simply hired locals, and yes in some cases, people with dual allegiances, to snoop around places.

[CostinR]

Meanwhile: projected russian casualties coming winter.

The callousness with which their lives are expended just boggles the mind.

Russian military history in a nutshell.

[Iphie]

Russian military history in a nutshell.

Right, I mean I do know that but this would essentially be another generation destroyed and another dent in russian demographics which are already abysmal...

[Slant]

Sorry to interject here - I don’t have a dog in this multiple citizenship thing - but ordinary citizens are the ones that have done the bulk of the spying for a while now. The FBI or CIA or whatever doesn’t send its own people to do things, it sends what amounts to private investigators, or simply hired locals, and yes in some cases, people with dual allegiances, to snoop around places.

Yes, I agree. Hence I think the whole spy topic is quite irrelevant for this discussion, citizen or not doesn't matter to espionage.

[Lynarii]

Yes, I agree. Hence I think the whole spy topic is quite irrelevant for this discussion, citizen or not doesn't matter to espionage.

I do seem to recall that the whole idea that a group of people who were German citizens, but were generally unpopular and easy to point fingers at, were 'disloyal' to the country and needed to be dealt with came up before a little under a century ago at this point. It didn't end well. If a person of Russian heritage commits a crime in Germany than they should be punished for the crime that they committed, but going after an entire ethnicity because 'those people can't be trusted' is a past mistake that should not be repeated.