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  1. #361
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Fact check: False. Orcs are bigger, stronger and have higher IQ. Garrosh was such a genius that he managed to perfectly reproduce schematics he might've glanced at once in his bunker and the people he passed them to were so skilled they created steam engines and trains in the span of two years. Them's the lore.
    You somewhat jest, I'm sure, but I unironically have always found that a little amusing. Although likely unintentional, Warlords of Draenor's plot effectively suggests Orcs to be one of the more intelligent races by virtue of the fact that they went from the most impressive invention of their most advanced clan being steel to developing advanced technology like trains and the Iron Star with only blueprints to go on (which even then they had to learn to read and understand the science behind to effectively utilize), as well as integrating advanced artillery, steam tanks and the like into a unified army and inventing the early industrial logistics systems necessary to keep their armies supplied with the aforementioned advanced technology. Orcs as of Warlords of Draenor appear to be the STEM-major frat bros of Azeroth—extremely intelligent, but entirely unwilling to exercise that intelligence until it gives them the opportunity to make things blow up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    It's a very strange situation since while the Garrosh of Tides of War is a ridiculous caricature, in Mists itself he rotates wildly between the same clownery with things like the SoO prisoners, his inexplicable tolerance for warlocks or undead that he then treats as his characterization'd merit - i.e forcibly and yet at the same time the ineptitude of the plot and the fact that there's few outright retcons result in his Horde-side opposition still coming across as delusional. ToW Garrosh, the worst version of the character, thus ends up as a strawman who, much like how his attack is treated as heinous but by all parametres is pretty mild, ends up being mostly alright. It's a strange bit of recursive bad writing and it's because unlike its offspring BFA, Mists also took care to have everyone who joins or leaves a given group have some kind of definable motive.
    It is a shame, too—I've always maintained that Garrosh was at his best in Cataclysm. Although Stonetalon Garrosh was an aberration born of miscommunication, I still believe him to be the better character. I think that it would've allowed the Horde to maintain some of its nuance and prevent it from either delving into BfA-era mustache-twirling villainy or being entirely neutered post-BfA. Had this interpretation of Garrosh been taken as the default for the character rather than constituting a deviation, I figure that the Horde as a whole would be a far more interesting faction. Many later events would've also been far more enjoyable with a traditional Horde leader—to me, it does feel significantly more impactful to imagine Garrosh fighting with Varian on the Broken Shore or shouting the Horde's battle cry at Undercity. Of course, the prior events only really came about exactly as they did due to his actions in MoP, but ceteris paribus I can't help but wonder how that could've looked.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    We know why Vol'jin, Baine, Sylvanas, Bob and so forth dislike Garrosh - it's not because of some nebulous honor code they all subscribe to like in BFA but specific group interests they feel are violated. The Purge of Dalaran is probably the peak of taking this into account, as the motives of everyone from Jaina to Varian to Bob to Garrosh all make sense and lead to a situation where although Bob opposes Garrosh, he is unable to defect and although Aethas wants to appease the Alliance, his lack of backbone means that he did help the Horde war effort and give Jaina the chance she needed, while he'd gutted his power bloc and left himself without any way of actually defending himself on the inside of the city.
    Indeed—if only BfA were written with the political element in mind, I imagine it would be much better. The odd thing about the opposition to Sylvanas is that everybody has a good foundation to work with in opposing her—in fact, even addressing only the macrocosm and discounting all the various individual gripes anybody may have with her, deposing Sylvie would simply mean that the Horde can wash their hands of her and go about their lives. The war already would probably have spiked in unpopularity due to Teldrassil, so it makes sense that everybody would want to stop contributing resources to a war that they can end with as little as Sylvie's removal.

    Then again, I really think making Sylvanas Warchief was a terrible idea from the get-go, as much from the Doylist perspective as it was for the Watsonian—she simply didn't really fit as a leader of the Horde. Her portrayal had always been that of a conniving dictator who maintained a partnership of convenience with her allies and never really cared for them. Her primary concern were the Forsaken, already the single biggest set of outliers in the Horde (many would point to the Blood Elves, but even they have the brash and militant personality that makes them significantly more suitable for the Horde than the Forsaken in terms of personality alone), and this meant that putting her in the big chair of the Horde would inevitably lead to some degree of thematic derailment for the faction. In that connection, it was difficult to create strong, compelling reasons for anybody to oppose Sylvanas beyond "she doesn't belong in that office" because, well, she didn't belong in that particular office. She just continued doing the things that she only got away with because she was out of the spotlight, but publicly this time around, and there was little room for any kind of riveting political conflict because Sylvanas was simply in a position that she never should have been in at all.

    Sylvanas was an interesting character up until then because she was such an outlier—as soon as the Horde has to follow in lockstep with her, it just has an identity crisis and doesn't make any sense. Even discounting the sheer thematic incongruity of making her Warchief, the Horde had no other option but to be utterly derailed the moment she took power.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ropeway View Post
    Orcs are lowly, primitive brutes who Humans already managed to trounce and downright cage like the animals they are once before, in internment camps.
    Then why did Orcs successfully develop industrial-era technology and entirely integrate it with their military and society in two years based only on blueprints they probably had to learn to read through sheer intuition?

  2. #362
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Show me a human train or steam engine
    Humans have been operating steam engines and other machinery invented by dwarves and gnomes since before WC3. And no stealing goblin work and copying it doesn't give garrosh the credit for it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Stormwind needed intervention from a Sargeras-empowered Medivh just to stop a Gurubashi remnant
    And the kingdom of Arator handed the trolls their asses back when the Northern trolls were at least thrice the size of Gurubashi and had the High Elves on the run, and when they had barely even learned magic for the first time ever. So?


    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The Horde didn't just base their whole plan around there not being civilians there
    There is absolutely nothing in the book or anywhere else that suggests that they planned on civilians being evacuated. I dare you to share with me even single piece of lore that suggests this, beyond your own fanfiction.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    Then why did Orcs successfully develop industrial-era technology and entirely integrate it with their military and society in two years based only on blueprints they probably had to learn to read through sheer intuition?
    They didn't develop it. And copying the solution of a problem long solved by others doesn't count as "high IQ".

  3. #363
    Quote Originally Posted by Ropeway View Post
    Humans have been operating steam engines and other machinery invented by dwarves and gnomes since before WC3. And no stealing goblin work and copying it doesn't give garrosh the credit for it.

    They didn't develop it. And copying the solution of a problem long solved by others doesn't count as "high IQ".
    This may surprise you, but interpreting and understanding blueprints to an alien level of technology you previously have had no experience with is indicative of remarkable intelligence. It's already difficult for people who don't know engineering to read blueprints, so it's pretty exceptional to be able to read and fully comprehend blueprints for industrial-era technology when you previously didn't know what paper was. Engineering requires intelligence even in advanced modern societies, and even if you aren't inventing anything yourself, so fully industrializing your society with less than two years of training in engineering suggests an admirable innate aptitude for science and technology.

    Furthermore, even outside of learning how to build and operate technology from minimal-context blueprints and secondhand stories from a single person, they still learned how to integrate their society and military with industrial-era technology somewhere within the span of the same epoch. Building technology is impressive, but so is effectively integrating and applying it—users of advanced technology are no less intelligent than its inventors. Outside of the technology in itself, the Orcs also learned how to develop a logistics system sufficient to keep their armies supplied across an entire continent. As far as we can tell, they also had to have done these things exceptionally well, because they intimidated the Ogres, previously at least equal enough to pose a serious threat to their existence and seemingly more advanced in most capacities going off what we've seen, into acquiescence and conquered large swathes of the Draenei, who themselves effortlessly curbstomped the aforementioned Ogres in the past.

  4. #364
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    You somewhat jest, I'm sure, but I unironically have always found that a little amusing. Although likely unintentional, Warlords of Draenor's plot effectively suggests Orcs to be one of the more intelligent races by virtue of the fact that they went from the most impressive invention of their most advanced clan being steel to developing advanced technology like trains and the Iron Star with only blueprints to go on (which even then they had to learn to read and understand the science behind to effectively utilize), as well as integrating advanced artillery, steam tanks and the like into a unified army and inventing the early industrial logistics systems necessary to keep their armies supplied with the aforementioned advanced technology. Orcs as of Warlords of Draenor appear to be the STEM-major frat bros of Azeroth—extremely intelligent, but entirely unwilling to exercise that intelligence until it gives them the opportunity to make things blow up.
    I'm partly taking the piss, but it is one of the most interesting aspects of Warcraft orcs and one I was very happy to see WoD committing to more heavily. I.e, that they actually adopt new methods and technologies very quickly, especially industrially. WC2 already had orcs understanding the importance of refining oil and making ships to that effect. The absurdity of Garry being able to know all this and pass it on enough that they all basically figured it out from memory, unless he kept the schematics in his ass while in prison, is funny, but the point it leads to and emphasizing the industrial aspect of the orcs was an overall interesting route. Being able to produce the tools and devote them chiefly to war while lagging behind in the bigger picture or in keeping a long-term functional society is one of the bits I like in general whenever it comes up. WoD did it poorly because the Iron Horde got shafted in both the pre-expansion rewrites and by being hijacked by the Legion, but the retcon to Thrall and Durotar works so well because it plays into that same aspect. You've people who've lived under very harsh conditions, with selection and physical trait towards being able to carry your own weight and defending what you've by force and you take them out of the context of a world that's dangerous enough to keep them down and either the power or technological leg-up. But there's no way they'd spontaneously develop the skills to operate outside of that, so things like them not being able to sustain a population on top of war in a sedentary life like Durotar works out. Ditto, the Second War situation where clan politics make the whole thing collapse because the institutions haven't caught up with the scale of what's going on. You've people who are basically superhuman in most aspects, but their physical and cultural mileau mean they apply this very unevenly.

    Sylvanas was an interesting character up until then because she was such an outlier—as soon as the Horde has to follow in lockstep with her, it just has an identity crisis and doesn't make any sense. Even discounting the sheer thematic incongruity of making her Warchief, the Horde had no other option but to be utterly derailed the moment she took power.
    I maintain the the post-TBC blood elves are the most out of context Horde race and the biggest problem of the faction theme long-term in a way that the Forsaken, as breakers of the Thrall-era monotony of noblesavages, weren't. But while I think you could've made a good story out of Sylvanas as temporary Warchief there's no question that the absolute best iteration of the Horde and the most conducive to telling stories was the Cataclysm one. The largest variance between all races, the core race in the orcs having a proactive leader that could engage in both pillars of the game - the faction war and world baddies and both good internal and external politics. Thrall was a terminal bore with no drive or motive, Vol'jin was solid in books, but never got to do anything and Sylvanas is a whole other can of worms. Because the Horde is such a cultural mishmash, the idea that you'd have a majority who'd oppose her based on nebulous values that they all already violated two expansions ago doesn't ring true. If anything, and if you really wanted to do this story, you should've leaned into this.

    The Horde post-Garrosh is hollow, it has no standing values and the institutions it wears is a skinsuit to maintain continuity. Sylvanas is the epitome of this. The Warchief is an undead elf, victory or death is moot because death isn't the end, anyone can be brought back, and the undead didn't take over through force but just by people waking up one day and realizing that a race that doesn't need to eat or sleep and can reproduce through death where all others have been put through unspeakable attrition, and has the most advanced internal structure, doesn't really have to take shit from the ruins left of the Horde at the end of Mists. A "You don't believe in the Horde" and "No, and what are you going to do about it?" exchange between Sylvanas and another character focusing on this discrepancy would check out.

    Then either have the Forsaken be beaten down in the process of having to heft up the rest of the races, lose and have Sylvanas step back, deciding it's too much work and bad attention or produce some kind of argument for what the Horde actually is. One of BFA's greatest sins is that when Strawman Sylv stands in front of Orgrimmar and tells them the Horde is nothing, she's on all levels correct. No one makes the pro-Horde argument at any point, not from an orcish standpoint or even from Vol'jin's milquetoast 'the Horde is family'.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  5. #365
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    This may surprise you, but interpreting and understanding blueprints to an alien level of technology you previously have had no experience with is indicative of remarkable intelligence. It's already difficult for people who don't know engineering to read blueprints, so it's pretty exceptional to be able to read and fully comprehend blueprints for industrial-era technology when you previously didn't know what paper was. Engineering requires intelligence even in advanced modern societies, and even if you aren't inventing anything yourself, so fully industrializing your society with less than two years of training in engineering suggests an admirable innate aptitude for science and technology.

    Furthermore, even outside of learning how to build and operate technology from minimal-context blueprints and secondhand stories from a single person, they still learned how to integrate their society and military with industrial-era technology somewhere within the span of the same epoch. Building technology is impressive, but so is effectively integrating and applying it—users of advanced technology are no less intelligent than its inventors. Outside of the technology in itself, the Orcs also learned how to develop a logistics system sufficient to keep their armies supplied across an entire continent. As far as we can tell, they also had to have done these things exceptionally well, because they intimidated the Ogres, previously at least equal enough to pose a serious threat to their existence and seemingly more advanced in most capacities going off what we've seen, into acquiescence and conquered large swathes of the Draenei, who themselves effortlessly curbstomped the aforementioned Ogres in the past.
    Didnt he somehow brought goblins to Draenor? We actually see some of them with the Iron Horde, Blackfuse Company remnants. So if they got there around the time he got in, they likely taught orcs how to build stuff.

  6. #366
    Quote Originally Posted by Ropeway View Post
    Humans have been operating steam engines and other machinery invented by dwarves and gnomes since before WC3. And no stealing goblin work and copying it doesn't give garrosh the credit for it.
    They didn't develop it. And copying the solution of a problem long solved by others doesn't count as "high IQ".
    Which one is it then?

    Notwithstanding that unlike humans, the orcs did actually develop and manufacture everything we see on AU!Draenor, within a shorter period of time and with their only source being what Garrosh could remember.

    There is absolutely nothing in the book or anywhere else that suggests that they planned on civilians being evacuated. I dare you to share with me even single piece of lore that suggests this, beyond your own fanfiction.
    The entire middle part of the book is Garrosh deliberately sitting around and not attacking Theramore because it'd give time for the Alliance to move in more military and move out civilians. His motive isn't humanitarian, but his strategy's implementation would always end up with the civilians having time to leave. Also he knows that Baine sent a message to warn Jaina to evacuate and allows it to go through, s ohe was aware of that aspect.

    @VladlTutushkin

    It's massively likely that originally Garrosh didn't go alone, but had the loyalist crew from the book with him, including the Blackfuse company, who'd then do the industrialization, which I'm fairly sure had a bit that it was going to last longer. None of that made it to live though because Blizz cut everything concerning infinites from the game and had Garrosh go in alone. How did the Blackfuse guys get there? Fuck knows. WoD is a mess.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  7. #367
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    This may surprise you, but interpreting and understanding blueprints to an alien level of technology you previously have had no experience with is indicative of remarkable intelligence. It's already difficult for people who don't know engineering to read blueprints, so it's pretty exceptional to be able to read and fully comprehend blueprints for industrial-era technology when you previously didn't know what paper was. Engineering requires intelligence even in advanced modern societies, and even if you aren't inventing anything yourself, so fully industrializing your society with less than two years of training in engineering suggests an admirable innate aptitude for science and technology.

    Furthermore, even outside of learning how to build and operate technology from minimal-context blueprints and secondhand stories from a single person, they still learned how to integrate their society and military with industrial-era technology somewhere within the span of the same epoch. Building technology is impressive, but so is effectively integrating and applying it—users of advanced technology are no less intelligent than its inventors. Outside of the technology in itself, the Orcs also learned how to develop a logistics system sufficient to keep their armies supplied across an entire continent. As far as we can tell, they also had to have done these things exceptionally well, because they intimidated the Ogres, previously at least equal enough to pose a serious threat to their existence and seemingly more advanced in most capacities going off what we've seen, into acquiescence and conquered large swathes of the Draenei, who themselves effortlessly curbstomped the aforementioned Ogres in the past.
    Yeah, whatever. Humans have been doing the same long long before orcs. And that too, far many more humans, unlike where a single tribe in an alternate tribe managed it.

    Either way, it's a lore contradiction because it's just not realistic for a society that's basically the equivalent of American Indians or Amazonian tribes anthropologically to go from that to the industrial revolution within a span of two years, even with readymade blueprints.

    "Aptitude for science and technology" does not exist in vacuum. There's fluid intelligence and there's crystallized intelligence (from learning). And fluid intelligence is not domain specific.

    And I'm assuming that even in a fictional universe, the nature of intelligence isn't so radically different from IRL (because even fantasy beings come from human conceptions). Notice how gnomes and goblins who are skilled in engineering are also skilled in magic.

    If orcs really had that much intellectual aptitude, they would've been the overall intellectual superiors of even the Eredar and the Dragons. Someone at blizz just randomly put in a "kewl raid with trainz n shizz" in an expac that already could charitably be called "intellectually lazy and lackdiasical".

    On top of that, it's not just about being able to understand the science and engineering per se.

    And "industrialized society" looks far far different from what Orcish society is. Orcish society during the formation of the Horde in either timelines isn't even an agricultural society. It's a late hunter gatherer society with tribes, sub tribes, sub-sub-tribes.

    And "industrialized society" is capable of mass producing engineered goods. For that, to support it, you need a certain societal arrangement, to be able to support said endeavour with both adequate skilled and unskilled labour. It's not a single guy reading a bunch of blueprints and ordering people about.

    Also BTFOing the Dranei is hardly anything to boast about. The Dranei might have power but they are pacifistic, and have always suffered the second mover disadvantage.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Which one is it then?

    Notwithstanding that unlike humans, the orcs did actually develop and manufacture everything we see on AU!Draenor, within a shorter period of time and with their only source being what Garrosh could remember.



    The entire middle part of the book is Garrosh deliberately sitting around and not attacking Theramore because it'd give time for the Alliance to move in more military and move out civilians. His motive isn't humanitarian, but his strategy's implementation would always end up with the civilians having time to leave. Also he knows that Baine sent a message to warn Jaina to evacuate and allows it to go through, s ohe was aware of that aspect.

    @VladlTutushkin

    It's massively likely that originally Garrosh didn't go alone, but had the loyalist crew from the book with him, including the Blackfuse company, who'd then do the industrialization, which I'm fairly sure had a bit that it was going to last longer. None of that made it to live though because Blizz cut everything concerning infinites from the game and had Garrosh go in alone. How did the Blackfuse guys get there? Fuck knows. WoD is a mess.
    You just posted in the same post that Garrosh had help, lol. Which one is it?
    Last edited by Ropeway; 2022-11-29 at 10:48 AM.

  8. #368
    Quote Originally Posted by Ropeway View Post
    You just posted in the same post that Garrosh had help, lol. Which one is it?
    Alexa, what does "originally" mean?
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  9. #369
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Which one is it then?

    Notwithstanding that unlike humans, the orcs did actually develop and manufacture everything we see on AU!Draenor, within a shorter period of time and with their only source being what Garrosh could remember.



    The entire middle part of the book is Garrosh deliberately sitting around and not attacking Theramore because it'd give time for the Alliance to move in more military and move out civilians. His motive isn't humanitarian, but his strategy's implementation would always end up with the civilians having time to leave. Also he knows that Baine sent a message to warn Jaina to evacuate and allows it to go through, s ohe was aware of that aspect.

    @VladlTutushkin

    It's massively likely that originally Garrosh didn't go alone, but had the loyalist crew from the book with him, including the Blackfuse company, who'd then do the industrialization, which I'm fairly sure had a bit that it was going to last longer. None of that made it to live though because Blizz cut everything concerning infinites from the game and had Garrosh go in alone. How did the Blackfuse guys get there? Fuck knows. WoD is a mess.
    Because those Blackfuse guys were literally like some kind of “foreign specialists” who were seen around orc new techie facilities, which makes total sense. Hell, they even had a troll there too.

  10. #370
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Because those Blackfuse guys were literally like some kind of “foreign specialists” who were seen around orc new techie facilities, which makes total sense. Hell, they even had a troll there too.
    The original plan, most of it you can find is that it wasn't one Bronze dragon sending one guy, but a whole group of infinite dragons orchestrating it. So while in the current version Garry goes alone and somehow stores this insight in his anus, the original, much more sensible version would've involved the guys who helped spring him from prison in War Crimes and the leftover Blackfuse company going in. The Blackfuse'd then be integrated into the industrial process, as they are implied to be in Iron Docks. The Iron Horde also be coordinating with the local Kor'kron, which you can still find beta files on. In the OG version, the Horde outpost in Blasted Lands goes over to the Iron Horde, what with being Kor'kron and loyal to him and Zaela doesn't just magically materialize in Blackrock Hold, but the Iron Horde advances past it and shacks up there as part of an overall invasion force.

    In the live version this whole business is barely coherent nonsense because Garrosh goes alone and kills the only timetraveler on his side. So in the canon, he carried it all in his noggin and all the tards learned from there.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  11. #371
    Quote Originally Posted by Ropeway View Post
    It seems you need to look up the word "intent" in a dictionary. Or "culpability". What you're repeatedly offering is basically the moral and intellectual equivalent of "it's not a crime if the attempted murder was unsuccessful".

    "muh civilians left" ... yes that totally justifies obliterating a known civilian settlement, just because unbeknownst to you and no thanks to you, the civilians had (only partially) been evactuated. Once more, you're spamming the same vacuous, criminalistic gibberish couched in prolix claptrap and then pretending as if you're not repeating the same bullshit over and over.

    Same with repeatedly equating bombing centers of civilian population with skirmishes in far flung areas.
    It seems you need to remember WTF your argument actually was, because you kept claiming that the Horde killed civilians in Theramore. That did not happen. And you can continue rejecting reality with meaningless buzzwords like you're doing here, but that won't magically alter it. Also, like has already been mentioned, the civilians only managed to flee in time because Garrosh sat on his ass for a week. So saying that they hadn't been evacuated thanks to the Horde's actions is not exactly accurate. And the claim that they had been evacuated only partially is a lie. The only people that stayed in Theramore stayed there to fight. Which made them combatants.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ropeway View Post
    Call it a peace treaty. Call it a ceasefire. This is just ridiculous juggling of semantics that has zero relevance to point at hand.
    There was neither between Cata and MoP though, so you're grasping at straws that don't even exist right now.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ropeway View Post
    You just highlighted by that sentence as well as the next that the horde attacked Theramore without any thoughts given to civilians, contrary to the perverse logic being offered until that point (how obliterating a city with a civilian population was ok because the Horde "expected" it to be evacuated).

    Either you're incapable of keeping track of your own arguments or you simply have no understanding of how culpability works, which frankly I wouldn't be surprised by, considering what's being attempted to be rationalized here.
    Yeah, sorry to burst your sanctimonious bubble again, but the one that can't keep track of their arguments here is still you. Because, until now, your argument was that the Horde -to quote you verbatim - "genocided innocent civilians IN Theramore". So the key point of what I wrote in the relevant paragraph is exactly what I specified - that the civilians left before its destruction. And you can flail like a fish out of water in desperate attempts to deflect for that, but it's not very effective and the fact remains that you were caught peddling BS.
    Last edited by Mehrunes; 2022-11-29 at 11:07 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  12. #372
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I'm partly taking the piss, but it is one of the most interesting aspects of Warcraft orcs and one I was very happy to see WoD committing to more heavily. I.e, that they actually adopt new methods and technologies very quickly, especially industrially. WC2 already had orcs understanding the importance of refining oil and making ships to that effect. The absurdity of Garry being able to know all this and pass it on enough that they all basically figured it out from memory, unless he kept the schematics in his ass while in prison, is funny, but the point it leads to and emphasizing the industrial aspect of the orcs was an overall interesting route. Being able to produce the tools and devote them chiefly to war while lagging behind in the bigger picture or in keeping a long-term functional society is one of the bits I like in general whenever it comes up. WoD did it poorly because the Iron Horde got shafted in both the pre-expansion rewrites and by being hijacked by the Legion, but the retcon to Thrall and Durotar works so well because it plays into that same aspect. You've people who've lived under very harsh conditions, with selection and physical trait towards being able to carry your own weight and defending what you've by force and you take them out of the context of a world that's dangerous enough to keep them down and either the power or technological leg-up. But there's no way they'd spontaneously develop the skills to operate outside of that, so things like them not being able to sustain a population on top of war in a sedentary life like Durotar works out. Ditto, the Second War situation where clan politics make the whole thing collapse because the institutions haven't caught up with the scale of what's going on. You've people who are basically superhuman in most aspects, but their physical and cultural mileau mean they apply this very unevenly.
    I don't have much to add to it since it effectively sums up my sentiment very well, but I'd also add that the aforementioned harshness of their environment would also be a factor in their rapid technological development—necessity is the mother of invention. For a race experiencing so much pressure from the environment they live in, it would make sense they would come to be competent problem-solvers with the power of intuition. Although they wouldn't have much time to really develop as much as they could due to the same pressures, as soon as some indication of what they could accomplish is given to them, it makes sense for them to rapidly adapt to a new situation.

    I do figure that the Iron Horde plot also could've been more interesting if the aforementioned clan tensions were part of what brought them down instead of a literal Diabolus ex Machina from the Legion—not only would it recall the same issues from the Second War in an interesting way, it also would hammer in that point that their primitive social order is lagging behind their technological advancement.



    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I maintain the the post-TBC blood elves are the most out of context Horde race and the biggest problem of the faction theme long-term in a way that the Forsaken, as breakers of the Thrall-era monotony of noblesavages, weren't.
    I would say that my ideal Horde Blood Elves would be the Blood Elves as they are portrayed in Warcraft III. I think neither the practically-Alliance, heroic Blood Elves nor the darker, desperate Blood Elves of TBC fit as well as they would have if their characterization had been consistent since then. I recall, even from my very early youth of playing Warcraft III, a scene in which Blood Elf Spellbreakers decide to try to overwhelm the gates of the Black Citadel while Illidan compliments Kael on his people's spirit—I think that willfully charging wave after wave of their already-dwindling, downright tiny population through incendiary weaponry in the hopes that trying the same thing a few more times will eventually succeed is the exact combination of incredible valor and ludicrous stupidity that makes for a good Horde race. Although they are not shamanic nor tribal in their social order, the Blood Elves of that era were honorable (at least insofar as Kael's interactions with Vashj suggested), outcasts, and, most importantly, cartoonishly brash and possessing of a downright suicidal cultural valor. Had these Blood Elves been in the Horde, I think that would've actually fit the theme perfectly.

    This is a bit of a pivot and doesn't have anything to do with the main topic, but it's something I've always felt and thought would be interesting to analyze.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    But while I think you could've made a good story out of Sylvanas as temporary Warchief there's no question that the absolute best iteration of the Horde and the most conducive to telling stories was the Cataclysm one. The largest variance between all races, the core race in the orcs having a proactive leader that could engage in both pillars of the game - the faction war and world baddies and both good internal and external politics. Thrall was a terminal bore with no drive or motive, Vol'jin was solid in books, but never got to do anything and Sylvanas is a whole other can of worms.
    My point exactly. Garrosh was good on a narrative level because he was a brash, hotheaded moron who liked to foster conflict yet simultaneously (prior to MoP) embodied many of the positive traits of the Horde, as well. He worked well both as a representative of his faction (insofar as he was effectively the Horde's identity personified and increased to the level of caricature) and as an agent of conflict. On top of this, he was also an Orc. Although this may seem a little reactionary, I do think it's necessary to keep certain traditions of the lore consistent and I do feel like it helps to prevent a "Ship of Theseus" situation to ensure that the Horde is continuously led by an Orc.

    I think that the Horde is at its best, in that connection, when it is both "noble" and "savage". Whereas Thrall and Vol'Jin accentuated the former too much and MoP-era Garrosh accentuated the latter too much (and Sylvanas was neither), the Cataclysm-era Horde had both traits in spades. They were prone to acts of incredible honor and savagery simultaneously, which I think helped give them a strong identity during that time. It's one of the reasons why, in spite of Cataclysm's otherwise-subpar (I'd say "terrible" if we didn't have BfA and Shadowlands to compare it to) narrative, the Horde questing was so good and memorable during that time. Even if the stories were often a little stupid, the identity of the Horde was extremely strong and their values and characterization was consistent. Even the Eastern Horde, who were typically abnormal for the Horde, had an identity of their own which was very strong and memorable and everybody had consistent goals and interests.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Because the Horde is such a cultural mishmash, the idea that you'd have a majority who'd oppose her based on nebulous values that they all already violated two expansions ago doesn't ring true. If anything, and if you really wanted to do this story, you should've leaned into this.
    Honestly, I think this isn't that much of an issue because she was a cartoonish mustache-twirling villain by that point, as well as just a complete moron who kept bungling everything for the Horde. If there really is a need for a good reason to dethrone her, the Horde could just settle for "she's a fucking lunatic and will lead us all to ruin".

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The Horde post-Garrosh is hollow, it has no standing values and the institutions it wears is a skinsuit to maintain continuity. Sylvanas is the epitome of this. The Warchief is an undead elf, victory or death is moot because death isn't the end, anyone can be brought back, and the undead didn't take over through force but just by people waking up one day and realizing that a race that doesn't need to eat or sleep and can reproduce through death where all others have been put through unspeakable attrition, and has the most advanced internal structure, doesn't really have to take shit from the ruins left of the Horde at the end of Mists. A "You don't believe in the Horde" and "No, and what are you going to do about it?" exchange between Sylvanas and another character focusing on this discrepancy would check out.
    That particular bit is a shame, because there's wasted potential there. I think that the advantages you mentioned are a very good reason for the Forsaken to help railroad the Horde into war in an entirely different way—they're a potentially-indisposable ally whose influence is necessary to keep the Horde in power. Sylvanas is a dictator clever enough to exploit that to keep herself in power for a very long time and call the Horde for help if things go south. Having the Forsaken, not really true members of the Horde yet inexorably stuck to it, be an ongoing problem for the Horde that finally culminates the problem that's been there since Wrathgate and really went into full swing with Cataclysm would be a really great way of allowing them to effect the entirety of their faction and generally generate tension and chaos for the Horde.

    In fact, even Battle for Azeroth isn't reliant on Sylvanas being Warchief to do any of the things she did there. With the threat of "I am one of your two major allies on a continent dominated by the Alliance and have the most advanced and dangerous military of all of you" to keep anyone from breathing down her neck, she could've gone ham there and done plenty to make problems for the Horde while smearing their name with her until the Horde finally saw the opportunity to deal with her after she bungles something up for one reason or another.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Then either have the Forsaken be beaten down in the process of having to heft up the rest of the races, lose and have Sylvanas step back, deciding it's too much work and bad attention or produce some kind of argument for what the Horde actually is. One of BFA's greatest sins is that when Strawman Sylv stands in front of Orgrimmar and tells them the Horde is nothing, she's on all levels correct. No one makes the pro-Horde argument at any point, not from an orcish standpoint or even from Vol'jin's milquetoast 'the Horde is family'.
    That I can't add much to because I simply agree with it on every level, with nothing to really elaborate on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Because those Blackfuse guys were literally like some kind of “foreign specialists” who were seen around orc new techie facilities, which makes total sense. Hell, they even had a troll there too.
    At the very least, the Blackfuse would have come in after the Dark Portal opened (probably during the interim period when the Blasted Lands were mostly under the control of the Iron Horde), meaning that the two-year epoch of industrialization apparently happened entirely without their influence (the likely original plan put forward by Dickmann not withstanding)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    In the live version this whole business is barely coherent nonsense because Garrosh goes alone and kills the only timetraveler on his side. So in the canon, he carried it all in his noggin and all the tards learned from there.
    Why was any of this changed, anyway? It makes more sense on every level.
    Last edited by Le Conceptuel; 2022-11-29 at 11:50 AM.

  13. #373
    Quote Originally Posted by Ropeway View Post
    Humans have been operating steam engines and other machinery invented by dwarves and gnomes since before WC3. And no stealing goblin work and copying it doesn't give garrosh the credit for it.
    Given how, unlike the Orcs, the humans are not even constructing those machines themselves, then that should give them even less credit than Orcs by your own logic.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ropeway View Post
    And the kingdom of Arator handed the trolls their asses back when the Northern trolls were at least thrice the size of Gurubashi and had the High Elves on the run, and when they had barely even learned magic for the first time ever. So?
    That was 3000 years ago and with the help of the High Elves. That same human kingdom ended with a whimper to absolute dregs of Azeroth like a bunch of Boulderfist Ogres, Wihterbark Trolls and the Syndicate.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  14. #374
    Quote Originally Posted by Ropeway View Post
    Yeah, whatever. Humans have been doing the same long long before orcs. And that too, far many more humans, unlike where a single tribe in an alternate tribe managed it.
    Similarly, it took Humans many centuries in our world and seemingly a few decades due to the active assistance they received from and exposure they had to the technology of their allies to industrialize, and in the latter instance they still haven't done so on a very large scale—we rarely see human-dominated armies on Azeroth employing artillery, for instance, and their siege weapons seem less numerous and advanced than those of the Iron Horde. The only thing they seem to have over the Orcs are gunships, which seem to be more the product of Gnomish and Dwarvish engineering. We also only rarely see Humans working entirely independently to produce their technology—where there are siege engines, Dwarves aren't usually far behind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ropeway View Post
    Either way, it's a lore contradiction because it's just not realistic for a society that's basically the equivalent of American Indians or Amazonian tribes anthropologically to go from that to the industrial revolution within a span of two years, even with readymade blueprints.
    That's my entire point. It's unrealistic, but it apparently happened in lore, so if we're to accept that exact statement we must assume that Orcs are somehow far more intellectually-flexible than us stupid humies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ropeway View Post
    "Aptitude for science and technology" does not exist in vacuum. There's fluid intelligence and there's crystallized intelligence (from learning). And fluid intelligence is not domain specific.

    And I'm assuming that even in a fictional universe, the nature of intelligence isn't so radically different from IRL (because even fantasy beings come from human conceptions). Notice how gnomes and goblins who are skilled in engineering are also skilled in magic.
    Well, for one, the fluid/crystallized dynamic is based in fact, but it is not true that fluid intelligence is entirely non-specific. It works in unison with other elements of personality and individual capacities to incline certain people one way or another. The Johnson O'Connor aptitude test is a very good way of visualizing differences in cognition. For whatever reason, Orcs just seem either entirely disinterested in the Arcane with very few exceptions. However, if we're to account for all forms of magic, the Orcs make excellent Shamans, and some of the best Warlocks around were Orcs, as well, so that still stands. The only reason they haven't had much time to become anything without some kind of meddling to get the ball rolling is anyone's guess, but I figure that their primitive society had something to do with it. Aside from there not being much room to grow and develop, the Orcs apparently only emerged a little over 1,200 years ago and stopped hiding in caves 800 years ago.

    For comparison, in real life, it took a hundred millennia or so (between the evolution of the first homo sapiens ~300,000 years ago to the agricultural revolution ~12,000 years ago) to even develop agriculture. In WoW, thanks to the very strange circumstances of their evolution and the fact that they already emerged from a developed civilization (which was itself only developed due to the influence of the Titans), Humans evolved 15,000 years ago and seemingly developed agriculture not particularly long after, but we have no idea how long it took them to do so. Humans are sort of quiet until 2,800 years ago. That 2,800 will therefore simply serve as the frame of reference for when Humans became relevant in the grand scheme of things.

    For Humans in WoW, with the backing of the Titans indirectly in establishing civilization as a default state of being for the Vrykul and bypassing development, and with the very direct assistance of the Elves, it took them 12,200 years to take over most of the Eastern Kingdoms. They had significantly more help in unlocking the central development of magic than the Orcs did with unlocking industrial technology, too, so they have an advantage on top of that.

    With this as a point of comparison, it seems like Orcs were simply primitive on account of being a very, very young race (even moreso than Humanity).

    Quote Originally Posted by Ropeway View Post
    If orcs really had that much intellectual aptitude, they would've been the overall intellectual superiors of even the Eredar and the Dragons. Someone at blizz just randomly put in a "kewl raid with trainz n shizz" in an expac that already could charitably be called "intellectually lazy and lackdiasical".
    Maybe they are. It may be ridiculously stupid, but it's canon. It happened still. They may have maintained a vastly technologically- and culturally-inferior society until introduced to advanced technology, but they appear to have nevertheless developed a fully-industrialized military in two years with blueprints alone. If I'm to accept your premise as true, it has to stand to reason that the Orcs really are equivalent or superior to the Eredar.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ropeway View Post
    And "industrialized society" looks far far different from what Orcish society is. Orcish society during the formation of the Horde in either timelines isn't even an agricultural society. It's a late hunter gatherer society with tribes, sub tribes, sub-sub-tribes.

    And "industrialized society" is capable of mass producing engineered goods. For that, to support it, you need a certain societal arrangement, to be able to support said endeavour with both adequate skilled and unskilled labour. It's not a single guy reading a bunch of blueprints and ordering people about.
    The Orcs were not an industrialized society prior to Garrosh introducing Iron Horde technology. At that time, they were a nomadic, mostly pre-agricultural society. However, given that the Orcs were indeed able to seemingly mass-produce their military hardware, we have to assume that they do maintain some kind of division of labor and are consequently at least maintaining the practices of an industrialized society, at least insofar as their military-industrial complex went. For them to have developed such advanced technology in the first place, the Iron Horde would have to have implemented the professional hierarchies and division of labor necessitate to build and integrate advanced technology.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ropeway View Post
    Also BTFOing the Dranei is hardly anything to boast about. The Dranei might have power but they are pacifistic, and have always suffered the second mover disadvantage.
    In lore, they didn't really suffer much of a disadvantage when they effectively curbstomped the Ogres at Shattrath.

  15. #375
    Quote Originally Posted by Ropeway View Post
    All of which was thoroughly well deserved by said factions of the horde for their complicity in the violation of the peace treaty and the destruction of Theramore and the genocide of it's civillian population.
    wow, you know shit about lore...
    1. Jaina broke dalarans neutrality, not horde
    2. sunreavers, with exceptions of handful, knew nothing... there is a reason why mass punishment is banned in real world... and even if few guilty were caught in the crossfire its still not excuse to treat innocents like that - some were FED TO FUCKING SHARK!!! alive!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ropeway View Post
    If anything Jaina spared Ogrimmar. Read the novel. She wasn't stopped.
    she didnt go "oh well innocents dont deserve this, Kalec and Thrall stopped her...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ropeway View Post
    Like the Horde promoted Garrosh Hellscream? Sylvanas Windrunner? Right.
    BEFORE they become war criminals? unlike alliance that do it AFTER... bit of a difference...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ropeway View Post
    It's okay to commit said murder if it's in retaliation to a military aggression by the other side that violated a peace treaty and genocided your civilians.
    its not OK to genocide civilians bcs soldiers of that town/country attacked town that was valid military target - which btw was Jainas fault to use the town as military base in barrens offensive - which btw had time to evacuate at least partialy...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ropeway View Post
    Maybe then the Horde would finally learn a lesson it's needed to be taught since they started with the genocide of the Draenei without provocation.
    once again, you know jack shit about lore...

    pointless to argue with someone with "alliance can do no wrong" attitude...

  16. #376
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    wow, you know shit about lore...
    1. Jaina broke dalarans neutrality, not horde
    2. sunreavers, with exceptions of handful, knew nothing... there is a reason why mass punishment is banned in real world... and even if few guilty were caught in the crossfire its still not excuse to treat innocents like that - some were FED TO FUCKING SHARK!!! alive!



    she didnt go "oh well innocents dont deserve this, Kalec and Thrall stopped her...



    BEFORE they become war criminals? unlike alliance that do it AFTER... bit of a difference...

    - - - Updated - - -



    its not OK to genocide civilians bcs soldiers of that town/country attacked town that was valid military target - which btw was Jainas fault to use the town as military base in barrens offensive - which btw had time to evacuate at least partialy...


    once again, you know jack shit about lore...

    pointless to argue with someone with "alliance can do no wrong" attitude...
    If it's pointless to argue with me, why the fuck are you even bitching to me here?

    Whatever Jaina did, she had every moral prerogative to do after Theramore. Don't act like your shit doesn't stink considering every time it's you fucking mongrels who start it and then whine like bitches when paid back even a fraction of your misdeeds in the same coin.

    Muh valid military target. Guess what? Ogrmimmar is a major Horde military base. So I say it's a valid military target. IDGAF if it has civilians because whored didn't GAF that Theramore had a civilian population.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    If I'm to accept your premise as true, it has to stand to reason that the Orcs really are equivalent or superior to the Eredar.
    xD

    Look, if you're going to draw that conclusion based on one bit of inconsistent lore, despite an overwhelming mountain of lore to the contrary, be my guest.

    All I can says that if they were indeed that intellectually gifted to point of going from late hunter gatherer society to an industrialized one within 2 years with blueprints, then in any timeline, that intellectual superiority would've manifested itself already, without even needing anybody's blueprints.

    Like they would've already have IRL 1940s technology at least by the time the Dark Portal opened. Insteady, they live in mud huts, sooo ....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    It seems you need to remember WTF your argument actually was, because you kept claiming that the Horde killed civilians in Theramore. That did not happen
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    that the civilians left before its destruction
    I can say for certain now that for you, if the attempted murder didn't result in death of the victim, then you don't see it as a crime. Either that, or you're not entirely literate. And it's pointless to argue the point with someone who doesn't even understand rudimentary ethics or simply can't read.
    Last edited by Ropeway; 2022-11-29 at 01:08 PM.

  17. #377
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Given how, unlike the Orcs, the humans are not even constructing those machines themselves, then that should give them even less credit than Orcs by your own logic.
    and im not entirely sure where they actualy did operate it "since before WC3", bcs in WC3 all mechanical things of "humans" were operated by either dwarf or gnomes...
    even a goddamn RIFLE was apparently too advanced for humans

  18. #378
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    have undead returned to UC from orgrimmar in DF?
    Undead returned to undercity in 9.2.5, before the timeskip.

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