What do you think of the new bad guys?

[HoodKazekage]

Don’t mind then tbh, we knew some old god shit was gonna go down since they found that temple on the old version of the dragon isles… don’t know why people are surprised about primordial dragons

[SoundOfGuns]

I am going to miss the jailer.

Blizz will never be able to replace his bulging nipples in every cinematic.

End of Thread. "Lord Nipple" is still the funniest guy.

I would be happy with a more mundane idea. Well sort of mundane. World ending is probably a given. Im already happy when i never see Sylvanas again in a big role and when they don't try to retconn everything to uhm-acshually be some big guys plans at this point.

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Don’t mind then tbh, we knew some old god shit was gonna go down since they found that temple on the old version of the dragon isles… don’t know why people are surprised about primordial dragons

What do you mean? Do you refer to this;

[Super Dickmann]

Of the two-three cinematics we've had of that storm proto dragon we'll kill in 10.0 I've no complaints. She's just a big scenery-chewing lizard, there's not really much you can say about it. She already passes the Bald Man test by having both a clear concept (Big dragon rawr) and a clear motive (retvrn to the elements) that comes through in what she does.

[Kyphael]

I found Denathrius dumber than a bag of rocks and thats an insult to the rocks as at least you can find a use for them.

I am not mad or happy about the new big bads, I don't have a personal investment in beating them, despite the dragons saying they are bad and etc etc, but I think thats fine aswell, I do fancy a break even if its a small one from DOOOM every single time.

Being a murder hobo is tiring, shame we have no bed.

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Agree and disagree, they are to an extent from nowhere, obviously, they were made up, but Azeroth has like 10k years of history, it would be pretty weird if they were brought up considering their irrelevance generally, like we can either have the night elves 'mourning' for 10k years where absolutely fuck all changes or happens, seriously, 10,000 years, thats fucking mental, or 'random asspulls', i'd rather have the random asspull.

Well, everything is made up in fiction, but if we're critiquing this from a place of good faith, as in the lore makers or writers are trying to construct a coherent story where there is precedent to the existence of the established world, which I will say I'm probably giving Blizzard too much credit. Its job after all is to churn out expansions off an assembly line in two year intervals, so these stories' only purpose is to give a place, meaning, and names to frame the time-consuming quests and raids players subscribe with their hard-earned cash to spend time in front of the computer.

Most of these characters are interchangeable because the lore has been cheapened to such an extent back when they couldn't wait to scorch the leftover Warcraft III. Meanwhile, we have a dozen unresolved plot threads pushed to the backburner to "use for a later expansion just in case", but none of it has any rhyme or reason for the players to care from a story stand-point. Debating it is an exercise in futility if you care at all for the story they wanted to tell from the start, or continue to balloon and collapse at neck break speed.

These proto drakes have no precedent. Their role is villain of the week. That's not to say there can never be new lore, but the way Blizzard writes it is in a way where we most players don't care, and cynically, or from a jaded P.O.V, look down on it for what it is; uninspired. Why should I care when they did such a wonderful job butchering Deathwing in the past? Why should I care for the re-emergence of the Aspects when their story, for better or worse, was resolved during Cataclysm? WoW jumped the shark long ago, but it's becoming a parody of itself wherein they're just repeating plots at this point after running through any decent lore they had through in a few expansion cycles. Malygos could have been an expansion boss, and so could Yogg-saron in Ulduar. Ulduar was certainly much better than the God-awful final raid of BfA, but I'm rambling and just repeating what's been said ad nauseum.

Why should I care about brand new, never-before-heard-of new villains after they've spent years horribly writing their more or less WELL-DEVELOPED and well-written villains? It's not so much being jaded about the state of the game as much as having lost all faith in their ability to write and develop good villains I'll care to see be beaten.

Time is relative. In fiction, you can do a million things in a minute, or only two things in a million years, but whether or not you care for the characters involved determines whether it's worth reading or playing through.

[Sett]

It is nice to have something primal. It is simple and not some dumb morally grey bs. They have a decent tie with the current dragon stuff so I'm happy. I wanted simple for this expac starting out and got it.

[Sorshen]

They're just classic enemies 2-in-1: dragons and elementals, kinda' basic, kinda' boring.
It's only that they're considered a world-ending threat that is a bit ridiculous after we stomped titans.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Meh.
/10 characters

[Ropeway]

Not Zovaal levels of bad, but still pretty meh. Suffer from the same asspull-lore syndrome as Zovaal, though to a lesser extent.

Feel like the crappier version of Deathwing and his buddies from Cataclysm.

[Kilpi]

To be honest, I think they suck. An out of nowhere, barely developed "they were there a long time ago but no one mentioned because (trauma?) and are back now" 2-dimensional character(s) and not even a particularly interesting-looking one. The design stinks. I'll elaborate.

Galakrond at least has pre-existing lore, to Warcraft/Hearthstone fans he's a household name and even though he would likely be equally 2-dimensional like these losers, or Deathwing in Cataclysm was, at least he has an enormously cool looking design. I'd BUY Galakrond merchandise. Funko Pops, statues, little Galakrond Battle Pet in the game shop, and I'd re-sub to fight him in a raid and do questlines featuring his gargantuan ass. These lame dragons? Not so much.

But they kinda were there all the time. We know proto-drakes existed, we know proto-drakes came from elementals. Galakrond is dead and should not be brought back. I think it's one of those things that works better as a background story and a slight mystery with just a HUGE skeleton to remind us it existed. Kinda like how Titans should've been.

[Kyphael]

But they kinda were there all the time. We know proto-drakes existed, we know proto-drakes came from elementals. Galakrond is dead and should not be brought back. I think it's one of those things that works better as a background story and a slight mystery with just a HUGE skeleton to remind us it existed. Kinda like how Titans should've been.

Ok, if they're tied to Proto-drakes, I suppose it's plausible and there's a least a bit of mystery to uncover there, like "ok, these big new bad guys are the bosses of these other Proto-drakes we didn't know much about," but personally speaking, there's still the name value. Galakrond would get me and probably a lot of people to re-sub due to notoriety within the lore. I probably won't for no-name new dragons. Then again, I'm probably not who they're designing the game for anymore, I went from subbed no matter what, consuming everything they gave me to burnout.

[Cynical Asshole]

Meh. Evil flying lizards, and cultists kissing their asses. We already did that in Cataclysm.

[chrisisvacant]

Ok, if they're tied to Proto-drakes, I suppose it's plausible and there's a least a bit of mystery to uncover there, like "ok, these big new bad guys are the bosses of these other Proto-drakes we didn't know much about," but personally speaking, there's still the name value. Galakrond would get me and probably a lot of people to re-sub due to notoriety within the lore. I probably won't for no-name new dragons. Then again, I'm probably not who they're designing the game for anymore, I went from subbed no matter what, consuming everything they gave me to burnout.

Not enough people would resub to justify Galakrond being made into a boss. I agree that it is best left where it is - done and dusted.

What I do think would be interesting is to see what exactly are the unresolved, well developed threads that people think they should be addressing?

Well developed? Really? I don't think there's many "well developed" unresolved big bad issues. How developed is "well developed" anyway? I don't care to see a Defias Brotherhood expansion.

[Biomega]

What I do think would be interesting is to see what exactly are the unresolved, well developed threads that people think they should be addressing?

That's the main reason for the "ass pull", really - there just isn't much left that needs addressing. Azeroth is effectively pacified. Everything else has to be extraneous, or the kind of they-were-hidden-but-here-all-along fuckery they're doing right now.

The only thing left from previous story threads, really, is the Void Lords. About which we know almost nothing concrete, and which we haven't seen or had referenced in more than vague memes for quite a while. So either they're brewing a major showdown that takes time, or they're reluctant to go there for some reason.

Dragon aspects etc. were never a particularly compelling narrative, since a lot of it was just on-demand ex machinas ever since we Kamehameha'd Deathwing. They'd been dragging their feet on that for years, sprinkling a little bit of "yeah dragons, still a thing" in there every now and then, but it was never a super interesting plot point or particularly weighty.

One other narrative thread, of course, is Azeroth's world soul. But that's a self-limiting storytelling device, because they can't just blow up the planet their game is set on. So it'll probably be either put on ice indefinitely ("it'll take another 10,000 years for a new titan to be born" or whatever), or ex-machina'd away at some point ("if we use Device X we can let the titan be born but keep the planet", or "the world soul sacrificed itself to save us from Big Bad X so it'll never be born", or something like that).

Wait and see, I guess. But what we're seeing right now from DF is not exactly an inspiring story.

[Kilpi]

Ok, if they're tied to Proto-drakes, I suppose it's plausible and there's a least a bit of mystery to uncover there, like "ok, these big new bad guys are the bosses of these other Proto-drakes we didn't know much about," but personally speaking, there's still the name value. Galakrond would get me and probably a lot of people to re-sub due to notoriety within the lore. I probably won't for no-name new dragons. Then again, I'm probably not who they're designing the game for anymore, I went from subbed no matter what, consuming everything they gave me to burnout.

I just think resurrecting millenia old skeletons is just lame and lazy.

[Ropeway]

The only thing left from previous story threads, really, is the Void Lords.

Trying to "resolve" the void lords how WoW "resolved" Sargeras or N'zorth would be an even worse lore decision than Shadowlands and Zovaal were.

Imagine a group 10/25 randos murdering literal Titans, Old Gods, Void Lords ... beings that are literal gods (with the last ones being a part of something that makes up the fabric of reality itself). Implying that these "adventurers" or "champions" are themselves at godlike scales of power (and yet no lore character seems to be able to name them ever, just because it's an MMO, which is funny AF from a lore standpoint).

This sort of bullshit has turned WC lore from bad to worse. Among all the things wrong with the lore today, is the fact that all sense of scale has been lost, everything has turned into a joke.

Ideally beings like these should be a part of the in-universe myths and legends. You should get vague hints of their involvement behind the main villains you battle, in indirect ways, where these powers are playing the long game of eons through puppets they manipulate throughout the universe. They should be spoken of in hushed tones by serious scholars and researchers in your universe, by in-universe conspiracy theorists or they should be mentioned in the in-universe prophecies and legends. There should be an aura of mystery shrouding them. As opposed to getting farmed every Sunday.

[Biomega]

Trying to "resolve" the void lords how WoW "resolved" Sargeras or N'zorth would be an even worse lore decision than Shadowlands and Zovaal were.

Imagine a group 10/25 randos murdering literal Titans, Old Gods, Void Lords ... beings that are literal gods (with the last ones being a part of something that makes up the fabric of reality itself). Implying that these "adventurers" or "champions" are themselves at godlike scales of power (and yet no lore character seems to be able to name them ever, just because it's an MMO, which is funny AF from a lore standpoint).

This sort of bullshit has turned WC lore from bad to worse. Among all the things wrong with the lore today, is the fact that all sense of scale has been lost, everything has turned into a joke.

Ideally beings like these should be a part of the in-universe myths and legends. You should get vague hints of their involvement behind the main villains you battle, in indirect ways, where these powers are playing the long game of eons through puppets they manipulate throughout the universe. They should be spoken of in hushed tones by serious scholars and researchers in your universe, by in-universe conspiracy theorists or they should be mentioned in the in-universe prophecies and legends. There should be an aura of mystery shrouding them. As opposed to getting farmed every Sunday.

I mean, I don't exactly disagree, but WoW has kind of passed that point long ago. We've killed two literal incarnations of primal elements and the Titan of Death. It's a bit hard to pull on the reins NOW and be all like "but the ogre bandit lord in that there hill fortress is a REALLY mean dude!".

[voidox]

like for many others, real meh about them. Sure they are better than the Janitor, but that's a real low bar to pass.

don't really care a brand new made-up villain/enemies cause Blizzard thought it was fine to rush through major villains/characters with backstory and lore in single patches - Legion final patch/Azshara/Nzoth's return all in single patches when these are literally 3 full expansions worth of story and content. All wasted :/

so ya, hard enough to care about a "villain of the week" type enemy especially when they are brand new to the story (and based on a retcon) yet being positioned as the big bad of the expansion, but on top of that when it's being written by objectively bad writers that Danuser and co. are... well ya, not interesting at all.

anyways, so far DF just seems like Cata 2.0 but worse, tbf it's not all straight up bad writing right now... just mediocre at best. Though I'm sure the ol' Danuser subversion is going to come up in a future patch to properly garbage up the story.

[Mehrunes]

Saying that they are better than the turbo-Satan gimplord is not saying anything, because pretty much anything, including an animated pile of dog shit, would make a better villain than him. The villains are pretty bad, starting with the looks. The proto-dragon model always looked a bit goofy because of its proportions and the t-rex arms and updating it to modern WoW standards did not do it any justice (especially since the storm member of the big four looks kinda hairy for a dragon with that bunch of long, thin spikes).

And there's already plenty wrong with them from a storytelling reason. First of all, as has already been mentioned, they are pretty uninspired villains of the week. What is worse is the larger story they are tied to though, because that's yet another case of Blizzard eating its own tail as they ran out of new ideas a decade ago and are running on fumes. Or, more specifically, the gastric gases released when they regurgitated their old stories to serve them up again.

Because Cataclysm ended with the Aspects sacrificing their powers to prevent the Hour of Twlight. Which, as per Charge of the Aspects, was their primary purpose given to them by the Titans. Putting aside the questionable writing in having the Aspects' purpose be preventing something caused by one of the Aspects aside, that was a neatly wrapped up story that then ushered the "Age of Mortals" (the second such age in less than a decade in-lore, but Blizzard was already starting to eat its tail at this point).

And now they're going to shit all on that sacrifice to make them Aspects again, just to fight a bunch of twerps that, as Wrathion rightfully pointed out, should have been killed 20k years ago. And while Alexstrasza had some emotional nonsense reasons against doing that, I find it unlikely that Neltharion and Malygos shared her sentiment. Or even Nozdormu, given his reaction to one of the Incarnates.

Also, looping back to how they are proto-drakes, I think their anti-Order paradigm would have resonated better if the Incarnates were actually proper dragons. If they were transformed and still rebelled against Titans because it was forced on them in the name of achieving that order that would give more credibility to their position and strengthen them as villains.

[loras]

Now that we have the prepatch intro. What is your opinion of these Proto-Dragons?

In my opinion it's fine. I already had several debates about whether they are good or bad and the cinematic intro had much more weight than the entire Jailer. Apart from that they have a clear objective.

Besides, it has a good point of being something dangerous but at the same time it does not try to be "the great apocalypse of the end of the world".

I like Raszageth's design.
A bit bird-y, but it fits and clashes in a nice way with her motivations as a supposedly uncorrupted dragon.
I mean she differs less from the original protodrake form than i.e. Alex, but is still clearly altered.

She also has more personality and character in a few appearances than the jailer has had in the entirety of SL already.

I also like that she mirrorred Alex's sentiment by refraining from landing the killing blow, for once that trope sort of makes sense since Alex did essentially the same to her.

I am stll curious about the ulterior motives of the primalists, their relations to the elemental lords, old gods, etc..

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They seem pretty cool so far. Raszageth seems even more powerful than Deathwing and I'm loving it. Can't wait to see the other Primal Incarnates who are even stronger than Raszageth not to mention Galakrond himself who is even stronger than all them combined if he ever returns which I hope he does in a later patch.

...Seriously?
Deathwing whose farts trigger tsunamis and sore back broke the barrens, whose tantrums tore through the elemental planes.... comparable to angry stormy dragon?

Don't get me wrong, i like Raszageth, but she's possibly less powerful than eveb Deathwing's lieutenants.
I mean you should remember that Al'Akir is literally the storm, unless that is the storm Raszageth ate she is less powerful than the least powerful elemental lord.

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They exist to demonize the Titans, since people didn't just LOVE the Titan-ier First Ones along with all the other asspulls in SL.

There is this to some extent.
Though they sorta walked back on that with their robotic eternals making it pretty clear that the titans are indeed on a different level entirely.

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That's the main reason for the "ass pull", really - there just isn't much left that needs addressing. Azeroth is effectively pacified. Everything else has to be extraneous, or the kind of they-were-hidden-but-here-all-along fuckery they're doing right now.

The only thing left from previous story threads, really, is the Void Lords. About which we know almost nothing concrete, and which we haven't seen or had referenced in more than vague memes for quite a while. So either they're brewing a major showdown that takes time, or they're reluctant to go there for some reason.

Dragon aspects etc. were never a particularly compelling narrative, since a lot of it was just on-demand ex machinas ever since we Kamehameha'd Deathwing. They'd been dragging their feet on that for years, sprinkling a little bit of "yeah dragons, still a thing" in there every now and then, but it was never a super interesting plot point or particularly weighty.

One other narrative thread, of course, is Azeroth's world soul. But that's a self-limiting storytelling device, because they can't just blow up the planet their game is set on. So it'll probably be either put on ice indefinitely ("it'll take another 10,000 years for a new titan to be born" or whatever), or ex-machina'd away at some point ("if we use Device X we can let the titan be born but keep the planet", or "the world soul sacrificed itself to save us from Big Bad X so it'll never be born", or something like that).

Wait and see, I guess. But what we're seeing right now from DF is not exactly an inspiring story.

The void lords are hard to use for more than a few reasons, as their main thing is being "locked" outside the universe. Their main gig as a personification of entropy is literally just waiting for us to die, they do not need a showdown of any kind. They just need to keep the rest off-balance enough so that entropy is not halted by i.e. the titans or others.

[Al Gorefiend]

They seem pretty cool so far. Raszageth seems even more powerful than Deathwing and I'm loving it. Can't wait to see the other Primal Incarnates who are even stronger than Raszageth not to mention Galakrond himself who is even stronger than all them combined if he ever returns which I hope he does in a later patch.

Deathwing remains one of the strongest final expac villains we've had to fight, behind Argus and N'zoth probably. Lich King, Corrupt Garrosh, Archimonde, The Jailer would have been smoked by him in 1v1s.