Protests in China

[PACOX]

I am assuming the main reason China is still struggling with COVID so much is that their vaccine was very ineffective.

They aren't really struggling, no more than anywhere else. Less than the US using real figures and not their BS public numbers.

It's a mix of culture, mistrust between the government and citizens, and authoritarianism.

Temporary inconvenience trumped by public well being.

A lot of things are about making sure the collective looks good in comparison. So Chinese government figured if that means an entire supermarket must be looked down so everyone else can be comfortable than do be it.

Doing what's good for everyone isn't the problem to the average citizen, it's how the policies are devoid of any compassion or humanity. They are cold and absolute to the point that 10 people died in a fire because they were locked in. The government doesn't trust people to self regulate the people don't trust the government to let them out if there's a fire.


Its really hard to get a real tale of what's going on do to China having a "what happens in our house is our business" when it comes to releasing international news and biased media sources on the outside. What's clear is that China's policies are so wrapped up in red tape that senseless stuff like the 10 deaths happen. They see what happened in say the US for instance and say "that's not happening here" then do shit like making sure you can't leave your building if you are sick/exposed not considering there still needs to be ways to get out in emergencies or that maybe one case can't actually infect an entire building. A floor? Maybe. Entire building? Relax.

Comparing US and Chinese approaches


US - optional vaccines. optional mandates that were loosely enforced. Tons of deaths but a lot more personal freedom. You're own your own. No one will stop you are anyone else from going out while sick.

China - mandatory strictly enforced measures. Mask and lockdowns mandates were lifted in a lot of areas before the rest of the world but condition that if there's a confirmed case near you, expect to be locked down. Locked down so hard that you might die in a fire because first responders can't get to you in time.


One country, so many deaths that weve just stopped counting. The other is so fearful of out of control numbers it can't get people out of quarantined buildings. Both are flawed but China's execution is insane. They've been so strict they have failed to adapt to a world where the virus might not go away. You lose when measures become deadlier than the virus. I think China is actually experimenting for future, deadlier diseases. Can't just copy the West because we saw how the West didn't do so well. COVID is no joke but again, they are being insane even for China.

[Nymrohd]

One country, so many deaths that weve just stopped counting. The other is so fearful of out of control numbers it can't get people out of quarantined buildings. Both are flawed but China's execution is insane. They've been so strict they have failed to adapt to a world where the virus might not go away. You lose when measures become deadlier than the virus. I think China is actually experimenting for future, deadlier diseases. Can't just copy the West because we saw how the West didn't do so well. COVID is no joke but again, they are being insane even for China.

Mainly cannot copy the West cause population density is so different.

[PACOX]

Mainly cannot copy the West cause population density is so different.

IDK. I think it has more to do with them not viewing other approaches as acceptable. According to Wikipedia, they aren't even in the top 20 in terms of density among *populous* nations. I could be wrong but that means there's a bunch of countries they could copy but choose not to.

India denser, a lot denser, with about the same population. Indian and Chinese approaches to the pandemic are very different.


I think China just wants to say it has the best approach and most resilient people. They are failing but I think that's where their intentions lie.

[Resurgo]

The same way US only reported 1.1 million deaths when the estimates are multiples higher, you are acting like the CCP is the only government doing this. Either way countries with lockdowns had significantly lower death tolls than those who didn't.

As @Forogil pointed out, we aren't even in the same ballpark as China with underreporting.

In Wuhan where it was first noticed/began, that's a city population of 11+ million.
Look what it did to NYC with only a population of 8 million. The early reports I got from Wuhan (from someone that's a covid denier to boot) were that the morgues were running 24/7 and couldn't keep up. They set up makeshift hospitals that were guarded the whole way around with military.

China has a muuuuch bigger population (and density) to contend with. Shanghai for example is 27 million. That's 3 NYCs in one spot.

While it's cool there are outside sources like BBC (trying to anyways) report on what's going on, the fact of the matter is that we'll likely never know the full story because of how tight they clamp down on anything that remotely "looks bad" to the outside world.

I'd wager whatever bad is going down in China, it's likely 5 times worse than what we're actually hearing over here stateside.

We're probably already seeing some ramifications of China's policies as we're basically forcing a lot of Taiwan's chip manufacturing to come here stateside to AZ.

[tehdang]

And Apple kowtows:
https://www.businessinsider.com/appl...otests-2022-11

The Biden admin is flustered:
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/28/u...-protests.html

This is likely another Tiananmen Square or Hong Kong or Xinjiang Uyghurs.

[Forogil]

Comparing US and Chinese approaches


US - optional vaccines. optional mandates that were loosely enforced. Tons of deaths but a lot more personal freedom. You're own your own. No one will stop you are anyone else from going out while sick.

China - mandatory strictly enforced measures. Mask and lockdowns mandates were lifted in a lot of areas before the rest of the world but condition that if there's a confirmed case near you, expect to be locked down. Locked down so hard that you might die in a fire because first responders can't get to you in time.

That's a bit misleading. It's correct for masks and lockdowns, but the vaccines have sort of been optional in China as well.

Yes, there have been attempts at mandates: https://edition.cnn.com/2022/07/07/c...hnk/index.html
Which were then scrapped: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-public-outcry

That were the milder "you need to be vaccinated to enter here", which many countries have used.

The stricter: forcing people to be vaccinated was done locally and then scrapped as well - https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...w/82035259.cms

The consequence is that at least in March this year the vaccination rates among the elderly were bad in China; just 50% - a lot lower than the vaccination rate in general. I cannot find up-to-date numbers for China, but in Hong Kong it has increased from similar to 70% for the 80+ - the lowest rate among adults; https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/c...e?country=~HKG
(Remember that the deadliness of covid-19 increases exponentially with age.)

That's why letting the pandemic rein freer will have more consequences in China than in e.g., Australia or S. Korea.

One country, so many deaths that weve just stopped counting. The other is so fearful of out of control numbers it can't get people out of quarantined buildings. Both are flawed but China's execution is insane. They've been so strict they have failed to adapt to a world where the virus might not go away. You lose when measures become deadlier than the virus. I think China is actually experimenting for future, deadlier diseases. Can't just copy the West because we saw how the West didn't do so well. COVID is no joke but again, they are being insane even for China.

I don't think China is planning for other diseases, but merely doubling down on their strategy, and especially Xi has been very much attached to it so reversing course will lose face.

[Kaleredar]

While it is great for the Chinese people to be fed up with their authoritarian government and willing to stand up for themselves why they are doing it is not for the best of reasons: Basically they are fed up with anti-covid measures.

The reason the Chinese are angry is because 10 people died in a fire, .

I doubt that thousands of people all across China were driven to publicly dissent against their oppressive government over the lives of 10 people or even just the lockdowns. And that's not to dismiss the tragedy of these people's deaths, it's simply an acknowledgement that this is likely acting as a catalyst for a lot of people to finally voice their dissatisfaction with the status quo in China- whether that be quarantine measures, the economy, working conditions, or the government in general. And these people who are protesting likely weren't sitting around twiddling their thumbs, happy as clams until suddenly they heard the news that 10 people died and then all of a sudden decided to take to the streets to risk incarceration and beatings. They've probably been growing discontent for quite some time.

Just like how the LA riots weren't just about the cops that beat Rodney King being acquitted. That might have been a major fomenting event, just like these 10 people's deaths were, but it was the straw that broke the camel's back in that it represented a long period of time of growing angst and resentment finally coming to a head.

[Flarelaine]

While it is great for the Chinese people to be fed up with their authoritarian government and willing to stand up for themselves why they are doing it is not for the best of reasons: Basically they are fed up with anti-covid measures. All well and good to be annoyed with constant lockdowns but they've worked to severely reduce the impact of the virus.

Can't say I approve of protests for these reasons, granted it seems China is going too far with the lockdowns but it also feels the protests are happening because the Chinese people feel, incorrectly I might add, that they no longer need anti-covid measures in part because hey: The rest of the world abandoned lockdowns why shouldn't we too? Well much of the democratic world fared far far worse on COVID then China.

I've read some articles about the protests and while the trigger issue was Covid restrictions, the protestors also call out lack of free speech and freedom in general. They are holding up blank papers for a reason.

[PACOX]

I've read some articles about the protests and while the trigger issue was Covid restrictions, the protestors also call out lack of free speech and freedom in general. They are holding up blank papers for a reason.

Kind of the annoying thing when you see particular outlets cover the protests. People are missing the bigger picture or spinning the issue to fit something else. The deaths in the fire are the result of how the Chinese government operates in general, the policies it implements and how they are carried out.


Getting caught up on COVID kills the conversation, some say it even gives the CCP an out. Address the smaller issue then let the larger one out of view.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't think China is planning for other diseases, but merely doubling down on their strategy, and especially Xi has been very much attached to it so reversing course will lose face.

Have they always been so strict when it comes to outbreaks. But yeah, it is another opportunity to exert more control over the population.

[Draco-Onis]

As @Forogil pointed out, we aren't even in the same ballpark as China with underreporting.

I do not see his posts of course there are degrees to it but our count isn't accurate by any means. The Trump administration did everything in its power to fudge the numbers though it seems that everyone has amnesia now including Florida harassing a scientist that quit and ended up running for office. I think the estimates run from 1.5-2.4+ million plus for COVID deaths depending on the timeline given the official date of the virus start has been retconned a few times.

I'd wager whatever bad is going down in China, it's likely 5 times worse than what we're actually hearing over here stateside.

Even if it was 20 times the official numbers that would be only 100k Deaths, that's insanely low given their population.

We're probably already seeing some ramifications of China's policies as we're basically forcing a lot of Taiwan's chip manufacturing to come here stateside to AZ.

That has nothing to do with Chinese policy, the US has been pushing for this for decades under Trump it increased and Biden has continued to escalate. We've been in a cold war for a while now it's just gotten more obvious, any country that challenges our lead in terms of GDP would never be friendly with the US.

[Forogil]

I do not see his posts of course there are degrees to it but our count isn't accurate by any means. The Trump administration did everything in its power to fudge the numbers though it seems that everyone has amnesia now including Florida harassing a scientist that quit and ended up running for office. I think the estimates run from 1.5-2.4+ million plus for COVID deaths depending on the timeline given the official date of the virus start has been retconned a few times.

Not really, as indicated above the US estimate of excess deaths is about 1.25 million compared to the registered 1.05 million, https://www.economist.com/graphic-de...deaths-tracker (excess deaths include the ones dead in covid, and generally gives a better picture of the true death-tool for covid; but obviously there's some noise).

In China there's nothing indicating 100k unreported deaths, and clearly not a million, but for Wuhan there are indications of some under-reporting early on. The official covid-deaths were 3,869 (at the start of the pandemic) - and the estimates of excess deaths vary between 6k and 13k https://www.economist.com/graphic-de...official-count

However, regardless of that minor difference China has so far avoided any additional peaks in deaths - both in Wuhan and elsewhere. The recent 10 ppl dead in a fire (during lockdown) and the earlier 27 dead in a bus-crash (a quarantine bus) - https://edition.cnn.com/2022/09/18/a...ntl/index.html are not that significant. In total the registered covid-deaths after the spring of 2020 are just 500 in China.

What will happen in the future is less clear.

[Ihavewaffles]

isn't this a few hundred people protesting, out of what, 1.3? 1.4 billion people? Lol at western media that until recently were pro-lockdown now cry crocodile tears about lockdowns in China. Also one has to wonder about these "random chinese protesters" that somehow happen to shout slogans in english when a camera is around, I'm sure that's a coincidence.. This has to be one of the most pathetic color revolutions ever.

[Breccia]

isn't this a few hundred people protesting, out of what, 1.3? 1.4 billion people?

The fact that it's thousands of people over 17 cities would be news enough. The fact that it's happening in famously restrictive China makes it a big deal. When was the last time thousands of Chinese marched in protest in the street? Tiananmen Square? That was 1989 and people still cite it.

Your claim about the ratio is also pretty laughable. How many Americans rushed the Capitol? A couple thousand, out of 300+ million? Have we laughed that off?

And I also don't think you know the difference between the USA and Chinese enforced definition of "lockdown". Quite frankkly, I don't think I know either. Fortunately I know where to read about it.

Also, did you just call them crisis actors? You better find something that backs that up. Conspiracy theories are not permitted on these forums. Please post constructively.

[PACOX]

Pi

I feel like in the US we like mischaracterize international protests. The protests are significant but in China they are about on the same level as the police protests we had in 2020, actually less. The police protests are practically an afterthought. Last month media was hyping up the Iranian protests that fell out of rotation once they turned ugly.

I'm open to surprises but I don't think these protests will amount to much of anything once people blow off steam.

We like to look across the pond and say "ooh there are about to tear shit up", while looking past or own issues and protests, forgetting how many spring up and dissolve into nothing as quick as they came.

[Forogil]

Pi

I feel like in the US we like mischaracterize international protests. The protests are significant but in China they are about on the same level as the police protests we had in 2020, actually less. The police protests are practically an afterthought. Last month media was hyping up the Iranian protests that fell out of rotation once they turned ugly.

I'm open to surprises but I don't think these protests will amount to much of anything once people blow off steam.

The protests have already had an impact - https://www.dw.com/en/china-rolls-ba...sts/a-63949123

China's controversial zero-COVID strategy seems to be receding, as officials signal eased restrictions following rare protests in several major cities.

In the manufacturing hub of Guangzhou, at least seven districts lifted temporary lockdowns on Wednesday, including in Haizhu, which witnessed protests recently. Restrictions were also eased in the central city of Chongqing.

China is also set to allow some people who tested positive for COVID-19 to quarantine at home, according to a Reuters report on Thursday which cited two sources with knowledge of the matter.

Whether it will hold this time is unclear, but it seems that the Chinese government bowed a bit to the public protests (obviously without referencing them).

The daily covid-19 cases in China are still increasing and are the highest they have ever been. The reported case-numbers (per million) are now close to the reported ones in other countries, and continue to climb and already this month they are likely to reach the actual case-numbers in other countries.

The long-term effect will be more interesting - will people remember that the change was due to the protests or not, and if so, be more ready to protest again in the future? (As for covid-deaths - there are statements that the vaccination rate among the elderly has increased in China. However, that is with Chinese vaccines so it might still get ugly.)

Added 2022-12-07: Seems there is even more change - https://edition.cnn.com/2022/12/07/c...ainer-intl-hnk

• Home quarantine allowed (yes, infected were previously often forced from their home)
• Limits on lockdown
• Vaccination plan (especially for the elderly)
• Medicine, schools, and monitoring (so schools are open if there are no cases, and partially open if there are cases)

Who-ever said that protests weren't important seems to have waffles on their face.