Gameplay's great, but a few story rants

[mysticx]

I'm very annoyed by the enemies in DF: Like in SL, every Primalist dies with a "you are being mislead" or "you don't know what you're doing". Exactly like every Mawsworn in SL. And did that ever pay off? No. We just killed the jailer, no plottwist, nothing. And it will be the same with the Primalists.
Since 2 expansions now we get hints that the Titans are the bad guys, but nothing every comes from it.

...or maybe something will come of it, but Blizz is taking a bit too long seeding hints (Lots of hints, all the time, the boys at Blizz are lots of things, but they're not subtle), the expansion stories sometimes take a bit of a turn after the first raid, let's see where it goes.

I'm having a lot of fun smashing cultists, i'll take their "You're being deceived"-thing, and their lunch money, and whatever else is in their pockets.

[Aucald]

To be fair: N'zoth did warn us against the jailer, who for all his poor writing was indeed the greater threat.
It's just that he wasn't very convincing because he himself was so terrible. But he didn't lie.

Going back and looking at some Old God and other NPC proclamations with the benefit of hindsight, it's entirely possible to see a scenario where the rise of the Jailer in WoW's overarching story arc is pretty strongly (if badly) foreshadowed. Constant references to a greater threat, an unknown darkness, a hidden evil, etc. that the Old Gods are "defending" us from. The problem with foreshadowing is there is a fine line between hamfistedness and being so vague and opaque that it could literally be a reference to anything (or nothing). WoW typically goes with the former extreme, but the Jailer could well be an example of the latter extreme.

[loras]

My main issue is Azeroth seems to literally "be a prison" (thanks Sylvanas ) in that the plot has vault after vault, dungeon after dungeon containing world-ending mega threats who suddenly break free and cause problems because for one reason or another, we can't seem to bring ourselves to kill anybody who actually probably should get the death sentence (but mass genocide is an annual affair..). The Old Gods were all imprisoned, Jailer imprisoned, Hakkar was banished (I think? Which is fancy prison, really), we stuffed all the Demon Hunters in prison, the Dracthyr were in prison, Sargeras is in space prison. The list goes on.

We really need to get away from the "and then X escaped from a cell, which everyone forgot about!" as a plot device. It's waaaaay too frequently used.

To be fair: A lot of them are immortal to the point that imprisonment is worse than death for them.
It's heavily alluded in example that the titans refrained from killing the old gods not just because killing them caused a lot of added havoc, but because it just allowed them to regenerate out of sight and reach.

This is also one of the things that drove Sargeras mad: He saw how pointless it was to kill demons, and as such created Marduum to imprison them instead.

Likewise it is heavily implied that elementals are immortal in the absolute sense, with the caveat that they need to be put back together physically (see Ragnaros' imminent revival in the dark iron quests).


So it would be more than fitting if Blizzard decides to make use of their implications that maybe killing the things that were imprisoned by creatures that could have easily killed them is a bad idea.
My personal headcanon is that each old god we "defeated" effectively just boiled down to us freeing them of the shackles of physical existence, allowing them to regenerate in the void and return (though that process as well as the return journey may take a while, plus we don't even know if they really have a centralised point of cintrol.
With the exception of N'zoth, though he seems to have some other ace up his sleeve.

[Skytotem]

After BFA had people sincerely arguing that Blizzard were pro-fascists and baby eaters because they didn't let the players kill Sylvanas at launch, I can see why they don't really want to make the villains look good. If the Primal Future was a beautiful idyllic lush paradise (probably something like the Waking Shore vs Oharan) then people would be screaming.

Twitter already had a pissing fit about the Tyrhold/Drakonid reveals as Titan-lovers were no longer "the bestest goodest guys".

I mean, the issue was less about killing Sylvanas and more about the horde's regular forces and other leaders not having a more normal reaction to the burning of Teldrassil, and for Tyrhold it's more about how despite what Blizz tweeted out or says in interviews... what they describe in the ingame books is absolutely mind control if dragons can't disagree with titan order or w/e.

[LarryWithTheWeatherReport]

I'm up to the end of the first zone and I have to say I love it a lot. The flying mechanics are awesome but I already knew it would be from the Evokers. The story is great, Raszageth is a epic and powerful villain so far. She's even stronger than Deathwing and cooler too. Alex was at least able to temporality beat Deathwing during their fight but Raszageth just toyed and owned Alex with ease. She could have one shotted her from the start with the lighting bolt but she chose to toy with Alex first I'm guessing she's the weakest Primate Incarnate so I can't wait to see the other ones. Especially the one with the hunger that Nozdurmu fears. I hope the Scytid or whatever those insects were called in the forbidden reach makes a return. It's time we have another insect civiliization again!

[LordVargK]

I'm up to the end of the first zone and I have to say I love it a lot. The flying mechanics are awesome but I already knew it would be from the Evokers. The story is great, Raszageth is a epic and powerful villain so far. She's even stronger than Deathwing and cooler too. Alex was at least able to temporality beat Deathwing during their fight but Raszageth just toyed and owned Alex with ease. She could have one shotted her from the start with the lighting bolt but she chose to toy with Alex first I'm guessing she's the weakest Primate Incarnate so I can't wait to see the other ones. Especially the one with the hunger that Nozdurmu fears. I hope the Scytid or whatever those insects were called in the forbidden reach makes a return. It's time we have another insect civiliization again!

I mean to each their own. But I can't see past the fact, that Raszageth has feathers. A dragon with feathers, how ridiculous is that??

[Le Conceptuel]

A dragon with feathers, how ridiculous is that??

Well, not that ridiculous when you consider the evolutionary link between reptiles and avians, and that she is meant to have a design and nature very evocative of Dinosaurs, many species of which had feathers.

- - - Updated - - -

Something to be said about the calibre of WoW's villains when this is the most moderate possible endpoint of an expansion villain victory in the game's entire lifespan. In the Primalist future people and the world still exist pretty much as is, but they're all assholes and the weather is poor.

To be fair, that's a bit more interesting and down-to-earth of a motive than most villains we've had lately. You can tangibly envision why "natural disasters + social darwinism = bad", so there's an incentive to stop it. It helpfully averts the continuous trend towards increasingly lofty, nebulous goals among expansion villains.

[baskev]

As all lore rants go, this is a personal taste sort of thing so others might feel differently, but here goes:

Loving dragonriding and new talents, and the plethora of ungated renown activities. Feels like how Shadowlands should have been.

Story-wise is...a bit less stellar though. It feels like cataclysm and shadowlands with this singular enemy faction that's responsible and manipulating everything bad that's happening (twilight/old gods in cata, jailer in SL, primalists in DF). That kind of singular threat makes the world feel smaller, in my eyes.

Better execution could be found WOTLK (both Yogg Saron and the Scourge as main threats), bfa (faction conflict, azshara and old gods), and of course Pandaria (Mogu, Nantid, the Sha, and Trolls as enemies, and the plethora of interconnected friendly cultures with rich histories such as pandaren and jinyu).

I know there's hints of the infinites becoming a big threat later in patches, but that still feels a bit too few for me. Could also be i'm just overwhelmed by too many dragons as unsurprisingly the expansion is focused on them with little else to explore (though the tuskarr soup maniacs are an awesome touch).

i agree.

While i like they are "fixing" the dragonflights. And for me the current "evils" feel like less evil. Several times they say: you betrayed us. Or the "good" dragons hint and a more...grey past for all of them.

But i get the feeling this is going to be 1 of those expansions where we think we are fighting x,y and z. But in the end something big/different is the big bad of the expansion.

[Aucald]

I mean to each their own. But I can't see past the fact, that Raszageth has feathers. A dragon with feathers, how ridiculous is that??

What bothers me most about Raszageth's model is her mouth/head, with that weird shell over top of it that makes it look like she's got a giant beak for a face. It's kind of hard to take her seriously as a threat when I'm staring at that thing - it's like being menaced by a distorted version of Daffy Duck or something. Wish they'd kept the basic design of the proto-dragon more for her model, and just added the size and lighting/storm enhancement effects.

[xChurch]

I'm up to the end of the first zone and I have to say I love it a lot. The flying mechanics are awesome but I already knew it would be from the Evokers. The story is great, Raszageth is a epic and powerful villain so far. She's even stronger than Deathwing and cooler too. Alex was at least able to temporality beat Deathwing during their fight but Raszageth just toyed and owned Alex with ease. She could have one shotted her from the start with the lighting bolt but she chose to toy with Alex first I'm guessing she's the weakest Primate Incarnate so I can't wait to see the other ones. Especially the one with the hunger that Nozdurmu fears. I hope the Scytid or whatever those insects were called in the forbidden reach makes a return. It's time we have another insect civiliization again!

Alex wasn't fully powered when she fought Raszageth, she didn't have her Titan powers at that point. When she fought DW, they both still had their aspect powers. I really don't think 1 for 1 she is more powerful than DW. Would be a little nuts if old Proto-Drakes could be stronger than Titan-empowered Dragons, if that was the case, what would be the point of the Titan power?

[Aucald]

I'm up to the end of the first zone and I have to say I love it a lot. The flying mechanics are awesome but I already knew it would be from the Evokers. The story is great, Raszageth is a epic and powerful villain so far. She's even stronger than Deathwing and cooler too. Alex was at least able to temporality beat Deathwing during their fight but Raszageth just toyed and owned Alex with ease. She could have one shotted her from the start with the lighting bolt but she chose to toy with Alex first I'm guessing she's the weakest Primate Incarnate so I can't wait to see the other ones. Especially the one with the hunger that Nozdurmu fears. I hope the Scytid or whatever those insects were called in the forbidden reach makes a return. It's time we have another insect civiliization again!

I also doubt Raszageth is actually as powerful as Deathwing was during Cata, and with the loss of her Aspectral power due to the Hour of Twilight Alexstrasza and the other Aspects are severely weakened compared to an empowered and angry Incarnate.

There are also scytid in the Waking Shores and in Thaldraszus, although they don't really have any meaningful stories or anything just yet.

[Super Dickmann]

To be fair, that's a bit more interesting and down-to-earth of a motive than most villains we've had lately. You can tangibly envision why "natural disasters + social darwinism = bad", so there's an incentive to stop it. It helpfully averts the continuous trend towards increasingly lofty, nebulous goals among expansion villains.

Nah, I'm not complaining, it's much appreciated, though I will complain once all the Incarnates die since these are perfectly viable long-term side-baddies.

[LarryWithTheWeatherReport]

Alex wasn't fully powered when she fought Raszageth, she didn't have her Titan powers at that point. When she fought DW, they both still had their aspect powers. I really don't think 1 for 1 she is more powerful than DW. Would be a little nuts if old Proto-Drakes could be stronger than Titan-empowered Dragons, if that was the case, what would be the point of the Titan power?

Reasons why Raszageth the Stormbringer is stronger than Deathwing is because WoW'S power level aren't the same as DBZ where she'll suddenly become much weaker in combat. Losing her aspect powers just means her life themed abilities aren't as good but in combat, she's still the same dragon. And we already saw a proto dragon being stronger than a aspect in dragonflight legacy when post aspect Deathwing had to chicken out and blackhole Raszageth away with the old gods power cause he knows he'll get his ass handed to him if he fought her. The stormbringer's lightning bolt power would probably one shot Deathwing maybe not kill him but definitely put his ass out of commission for a bit.

I also doubt Raszageth is actually as powerful as Deathwing was during Cata, and with the loss of her Aspectral power due to the Hour of Twilight Alexstrasza and the other Aspects are severely weakened compared to an empowered and angry Incarnate.

There are also scytid in the Waking Shores and in Thaldraszus, although they don't really have any meaningful stories or anything just yet.

Shame they aren't that involved right now but I'm hoping one of the major future patch would feature their hidden empire in a nice huge underground zone. The forbidden reach stats they were always strong foes but their numbers have grown greatly since ages ago. And also hope to see the primordial trolls that was mentioned many months ago.

[LordVargK]

Well, not that ridiculous when you consider the evolutionary link between reptiles and avians, and that she is meant to have a design and nature very evocative of Dinosaurs, many species of which had feathers.

Kinda makes sense, but early Dinosaurs did not have feathers. They did evolve over time and culminated in avians (well, avians are the only ones to survive until now). So Protodragons are end-stage Dinosaurs? Kinda tanks the "proto" out of it if you ask me.

Leaving real world logic out of it: It just looks ridiculous. We've faced Deathwing. A half-dragon-half-bird with teeth/tusks that act like a muzzle is hardly intimidating.

[Shadowferal]

Hmf ..my rewrite has couatl...not the same?

[Biomega]

Kinda makes sense, but early Dinosaurs did not have feathers. They did evolve over time and culminated in avians (well, avians are the only ones to survive until now). So Protodragons are end-stage Dinosaurs? Kinda tanks the "proto" out of it if you ask me.

It does make sense if you think of dragons happening AFTER natural evolution. In that sense, proto-dragons would effectively be where their dinosaur-like forms ended up evolutionarily, and then the Titans messed with stuff after that to turn them into "proper" dragons. The proto is not a misnomer in that case, even if they're the apex of their own natural evolution. It's all relative to whatever point in history you take as a reference, anyway - maybe a million years from now, we'll be known as the proto-form of whatever humans have turned into at that point. Who knows

[Merin]

There's some nice moments in the expansion but the overall storytelling is even worse than Shadowlands for actual entertainment value, even if it is less damaging to the franchise.

Once I hit the Centaur area I wanted to skip absolutely every single line of dialogue. I hate these fucking people and do not care about their plight one iota, just let me swoop, slash and loot.

[Aucald]

Hmf ..my rewrite has couatl...not the same?https://www.kryxrpg.com/static/40791...bb/couatl.avif

Couatl actually appear in WC3: TFT as an aerial unit used by the naga on multiple occasions where they have fully-functional bases you need to take out. They're produced at a building called the Shrine of Azshara, which also spawns Naga Sirens. It's unknown why they didn't appear with Nazjatar during BfA, with some assuming they've been retconned into Fathom Ray mobs instead as Snapdragons and Tidal Guardians also appear in Nazjatar as reimagined WC3: TFT units.

[WowClassic]

Didn't you see the roundtables? They have a bunch of feminist dance graduates designing the game. This is what you get when you put ">muh diversity" before actual talent

[Shadowferal]

Couatl actually appear in WC3: TFT as an aerial unit used by the naga on multiple occasions where they have fully-functional bases you need to take out. They're produced at a building called the Shrine of Azshara, which also spawns Naga Sirens. It's unknown why they didn't appear with Nazjatar during BfA, with some assuming they've been retconned into Fathom Ray mobs instead as Snapdragons and Tidal Guardians also appear in Nazjatar as reimagined WC3: TFT units.

Well, I rewrote about the naga too. They become a major race among several aquatic races. (Couatl and trolls will be a thing. Couatl will be more aligned as a "messenger" type, like an angel. The only class that it will communicate with is the priest caste "medicine man" (talent tree, as opposed to another talent tree "witch doctor" which is more neutral aligned)

...sorry. that's probably tmi...