Rotation bots have killed off the end game in FF

[Ghost of Cow]

I like how people keep throwing around the word "entitlement" when talking about tanks. All the while, their posts amount to the stomping of feet and yelling, "I do what I want!!"

[Granyala]

If you're undergeared, it's somewhat understandable. Just tell them you are undergeared. Or if your group is dying due to lack of healing, pretty certain people will understand single pulls after a wipe or two. But if you're just not using cooldowns? Come on bro. It's a couple of buttons. Just use rampart.

Aye. I think we should all keep in mind, that this discussion is mostly academic in nature. Current experts are tuned so pathetically low, that there is no reason not to pull wall to wall in like ... ever and no one expects a leveling tank in crappy gear to pull wall to wall in leveling dungeons that, hilariously, hit much harder than "expert" stuffs.

As a healer, I wish the expert dungeons would be beefed up a bit, so people actually take them seriously and I'd get something to heal. :'D

[Aucald]

When it comes to tanking, regardless of the game, I generally think it's the tank's responsibility and overall purpose to pull and set the meter for the group. While I'm not deeply opposed to DPS or healers helping with pulling to speed things up, it is something I prefer to know ahead of time so I can shift up my strategy from static to active pulling (where I know I need to do some footwork to interdict and intercept incoming mobs away from soft targets). Generally speaking, I don't need the help and I find it more irritating than helpful, but there are occasions when professional non-tank pullers can work wonderfully, too. Call it entitlement if you wish, but that's kind of how I learned the tanking game in the early days of MMO/RPG games and that's how I tend to tank - unless I'm unfamiliar with a given dungeon/raid, I'm generally quite proficient and quick at it as well, pulling as much or as little as I think my group can handle at any given time.

[Pannonian]

When it comes to tanking, regardless of the game, I generally think it's the tank's responsibility and overall purpose to pull and set the meter for the group. While I'm not deeply opposed to DPS or healers helping with pulling to speed things up, it is something I prefer to know ahead of time so I can shift up my strategy from static to active pulling (where I know I need to do some footwork to interdict and intercept incoming mobs away from soft targets). Generally speaking, I don't need the help and I find it more irritating than helpful, but there are occasions when professional non-tank pullers can work wonderfully, too. Call it entitlement if you wish, but that's kind of how I learned the tanking game in the early days of MMO/RPG games and that's how I tend to tank - unless I'm unfamiliar with a given dungeon/raid, I'm generally quite proficient and quick at it as well, pulling as much or as little as I think my group can handle at any given time.

If you use sprint and are as quick as you say, you will never come in the situation. So it is a theoretical debate anyway.

You may think it is the tanks responibility and that's fine. Others might see it different, and there is no 100% correct way. But please dont "i play mmos for 20 years and tank pulls" - because that just shows that you dont have any clue about FFXIV dungeon design. And even worse than entitled tanks are entitled tanks that have no clue about the game but spread their lack of knowledge (bonus points if they sprount crafting crown). Not saying you're doing this, but how can anyone think "Other MMOs this is true too" is a valid argument is beyond me. Next time i'll just change my 1/1 creatue in magic to a planeswalker because in chess a pawn can get transformed into a queen - same logic.

Also, as so many people seem to have problem with me using the word entitlement:

Tank not pulling because sprout = not entitlement
Tank not pulling because dont know dungeon/gear = not entitlement
Tank not pulling because having trouble handling mobs and dps die = not entitlement
Tank not pulling because they're just not fast enough, got bamboozeld by sprinting DPS = not entitlement

Perfectly capable tank deactivates tank stance and let dps die because no one else is allowed to pull = entitlement

Hope that clears it up a bit.

[Ghost of Cow]

But please dont "i play mmos for 20 years and tank pulls" - because that just shows that you dont have any clue about FFXIV dungeon design. And even worse than entitled tanks are entitled tanks that have no clue about the game but spread their lack of knowledge (bonus points if they sprount crafting crown). Not saying you're doing this, but how can anyone think "Other MMOs this is true too" is a valid argument is beyond me. Next time i'll just change my 1/1 creatue in magic to a planeswalker because in chess a pawn can get transformed into a queen - same logic.

That's an astonishingly dumb analogy.

XIV dungeons aren't somehow special snowflakes or something.

[Aucald]

You may think it is the tanks responibility and that's fine. Others might see it different, and there is no 100% correct way. But please dont "i play mmos for 20 years and tank pulls" - because that just shows that you dont have any clue about FFXIV dungeon design. And even worse than entitled tanks are entitled tanks that have no clue about the game but spread their lack of knowledge (bonus points if they sprount crafting crown). Not saying you're doing this, but how can anyone think "Other MMOs this is true too" is a valid argument is beyond me. Next time i'll just change my 1/1 creatue in magic to a planeswalker because in chess a pawn can get transformed into a queen - same logic.

It's less a question of a specific game and more one of a specific paradigm - the Tank/Healer/DPS paradigm is one that appears in a lot of RPG-type games, especially MMOs, and generally speaking, this paradigm functions the same across the games that use them, with only minor variations from an aesthetic standpoint. Be it WoW or FF14, you'll find your Tank class generally specializes in active or passive mitigation, damage reduction, and defense whereas your DPS and Healer classes specialize in their roles to the detriment of mitigation/defense making them ill-suited to facing down in an incoming horde of mobs. Generally speaking, especially in an environment where even trash mobs are quickly lethal to non-Tanks, it makes sense to not go out of your way to put yourself in trouble if you're not a Tank, especially when almost all Tanks have abilities that are designed to pull mobs from a distance and then enough PBAoE type damage to keep them all entertained and away from softer targets.

Now I don't agree with the idea that a Tank should just let people die if they accidentally or purposefully pull mobs - your job is defense, and that includes coverage for mistakes or overly gung-ho non-Tanks in most cases. As opposed to being passive-aggressive about it I'll just generally drop from the group if I find people are being annoying or want to continually set a pace I'm not game for, no need to really get in a snit about it. I tanked duties for an appreciable portion of my FF14 experience from HW and on to EW, and I never really encountered much of an issue in this department in terms of people pulling for me or pulling ahead of me on a routine basis. My only real takeaway was that I was going fast enough and pulling more than enough to satisfy most groups, as no one complained and no one attempted to vote-kick me. My experience in FF14 wasn't very different from other RPG games of its ilk, either; so it didn't strike me as any kind of unique case. My experience in GW2, on the other hand, was quite different given it doesn't cleave to the Tank/DPS/Healer paradigm in the same way (or at least didn't at that time).

[zealo]

That's an astonishingly dumb analogy.

XIV dungeons aren't somehow special snowflakes or something.

What's an astonishingly dumb take is the belief that dungeons in XIV are balanced as such that YPYT becomes an actually valid gameplay perspective.

There are no enemy patrols sneaking up on groups from behind, player resources are not anywhere near so tight that the group need to sit down and drink for 30 seconds after just one small pack to recover their resources cause it consumed nearly everything they had on them, and they're especially not balanced in such a manner especially at higher levels that your average group can't absolutely power through everything in between a wall section without breaking a sweat, with a tank barely needing to blink at enemies to take aggro of them when arriving at the wall.

Letting people who aren't the tank die to reset aggro on enemies has valid gameplay value in some much older MMOs, but XIV isn't one of them.

[Ghost of Cow]

I tanked duties for an appreciable portion of my FF14 experience from HW and on to EW, and I never really encountered much of an issue in this department in terms of people pulling for me or pulling ahead of me on a routine basis.

Well yeah, that's why this is such a silly argument. It's a complete non-issue, some people just seem to want to make it seem like something that it isn't and rail about "tank entitlement" or something.

[Pannonian]

Well yeah, that's why this is such a silly argument. It's a complete non-issue, some people just seem to want to make it seem like something that it isn't and rail about "tank entitlement" or something.

Yeah it is silly, that's why a tank throwing a tantrum and grieving the group is silly in FFXIV and entitled - all i'm saying.


@Aucald: I know the paradigm, but as you yourself put it "especially in an environment where even trash mobs are quickly lethal" - this does not happen in an expert dungeon. None of them. And to your second paragraph: perfectly normal reaction, but i had tanks that would stop, turn of aggro and let people die - these people exist, and they annoy me to no end. And if you tank and never have a problem with it - then this isn't about you 99,5% of the tanks i encounter wouldn't do this, but there are a few. (just to give you a bit more context for this number, i've done over 1000 Experts since EW launched, and it maybe happened in 4 or 5 - so it is probably less as i stopped counting at 1000)

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That's an astonishingly dumb analogy.

XIV dungeons aren't somehow special snowflakes or something.

Oh yeah, you got it, it is a dumb analogy. That was kind of the point...

[Soikona]

If you use sprint and are as quick as you say, you will never come in the situation. So it is a theoretical debate anyway.

You may think it is the tanks responibility and that's fine. Others might see it different, and there is no 100% correct way. But please dont "i play mmos for 20 years and tank pulls" - because that just shows that you dont have any clue about FFXIV dungeon design. And even worse than entitled tanks are entitled tanks that have no clue about the game but spread their lack of knowledge (bonus points if they sprount crafting crown). Not saying you're doing this, but how can anyone think "Other MMOs this is true too" is a valid argument is beyond me. Next time i'll just change my 1/1 creatue in magic to a planeswalker because in chess a pawn can get transformed into a queen - same logic.

Also, as so many people seem to have problem with me using the word entitlement:

Tank not pulling because sprout = not entitlement
Tank not pulling because dont know dungeon/gear = not entitlement
Tank not pulling because having trouble handling mobs and dps die = not entitlement
Tank not pulling because they're just not fast enough, got bamboozeld by sprinting DPS = not entitlement

Perfectly capable tank deactivates tank stance and let dps die because no one else is allowed to pull = entitlement

Hope that clears it up a bit.

This is such a hot take with one of the worst analogies I have ever read!

Do you actually believe the core principle that a tank pulls is something in every MMORPG that practices the holy trinity?

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Yeah it is silly, that's why a tank throwing a tantrum and grieving the group is silly in FFXIV and entitled - all i'm saying.


@Aucald: I know the paradigm, but as you yourself put it "especially in an environment where even trash mobs are quickly lethal" - this does not happen in an expert dungeon. None of them. And to your second paragraph: perfectly normal reaction, but i had tanks that would stop, turn of aggro and let people die - these people exist, and they annoy me to no end. And if you tank and never have a problem with it - then this isn't about you 99,5% of the tanks i encounter wouldn't do this, but there are a few. (just to give you a bit more context for this number, i've done over 1000 Experts since EW launched, and it maybe happened in 4 or 5 - so it is probably less as i stopped counting at 1000)

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Oh yeah, you got it, it is a dumb analogy. That was kind of the point...

So don’t pull on purpose?

And you admit to using a shit analogy to support your argument? That is a flawed logic by itself.

[Yarathir]

Well yeah, that's why this is such a silly argument. It's a complete non-issue, some people just seem to want to make it seem like something that it isn't and rail about "tank entitlement" or something.

twitter and reddit are obsessed with enforcing w2w no matter what to the point that they're obnoxiously overzealous about it

[Granyala]

When it comes to tanking, regardless of the game, I generally think it's the tank's responsibility and overall purpose to pull and set the meter for the group. While I'm not deeply opposed to DPS or healers helping with pulling to speed things up, it is something I prefer to know ahead of time so I can shift up my strategy from static to active pulling (where I know I need to do some footwork to interdict and intercept incoming mobs away from soft targets). Generally speaking, I don't need the help and I find it more irritating than helpful, but there are occasions when professional non-tank pullers can work wonderfully, too.

Pretty much how I feel.
Back in the day in WoW, when my pally shield was too unpredictable to pull small patrols, I regularly asked a DoT class to pull it. As you said: I knew it in advance and it happened in a controlled manner.

IMHO: the real reason why we are having this discussion is not because of entitlement. It's because dungeon mobs hit like wet noodles. If they actually did damage like mobs back in Burning Crusade Heroics... boy, no sane DPS would ever think about pulling except for controlled scenarios like the above.

If DPS and even healers (really it makes little difference whether I heal a tank or a Blackmage against one mob) don't need to respect the enemies power, it's no wonder everyone thinks they can just "yolo" it and don't need tanks.

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twitter and reddit are obsessed with enforcing w2w no matter what to the point that they're obnoxiously overzealous about it

What does "w2w" mean?

[Kittahsmash]

This whole thread is really kinda sad, and I hope that a lot of you who've posted more than 5 or 6 times remember to go outside occasionally and remember there's more to what's going on than being "right" in a stupid discussion that has no clear answer.

What does "w2w" mean?

Wall to Wall

[Granyala]

This whole thread is really kinda sad, and I hope that a lot of you who've posted more than 5 or 6 times remember to go outside occasionally and remember there's more to what's going on than being "right" in a stupid discussion that has no clear answer.

Real Life has downtime. Forums discussions about subjects we like are excellent entertainment.
You do the math. :P

[Cocodeeznutz]

Those things lock in an inflexible rotation. I tried one because the button bloat is just stupid in this game. Overall performance of the auto rotation made my dps worse. Even with 18+ key binds bloating up the QoL with obnoxious redundant abilities split up into fckall abilities…. E.g., Astro

DRAW > select target or use clever hot bar setup if you shun the mouse over > PLAY > manually select next target or take a seminar on ffxiv advanced targeting commands and pray you have good ping if you use said commands via the macro system that doesn’t need to queue abilities with where it’s going….

Monk loop = 6 button bloat fest that were an onlooker were to observe just your inputs on the keyboard without knowing you were playing a game, it might give the impression that you’re a giga chad accountant with mad 10key skills.

GNB shitshow

DRK face roll keyboard to pull off the opener

PLD oh how they suffer and yet are cool