Biden / Harris Focused Discussion

[Edge-]

Dems still could have done the right thing and keep it as one bill. Likely fail, then sadly the workers would have to strike and most ignorant Americans would shit on them

And which political party would bear the full force of the blame in this situation?

Also, are there any economic risks associated with this that might hurt all kinds of people who have nothing to do with this even if they support unions? Will there be any political consequences for, "Democrats canceled Christmas this year."?

Because we know corporate media across the spectrum will pick a side and that it will not be the side of the unions, they already have made this clear.

But perhaps this brings up a new bill and pass of 7 day sick leave or at least 4.

What on earth gives you any remote indication that Republicans would support any bills with sick leave baked into them given what they just did with the amendment, and given that they've repeatedly shown that they have zero problems literally shutting the country down multiple times?

[Cthulhu 2020]

Dems still could have done the right thing and keep it as one bill. Likely fail, then sadly the workers would have to strike and most ignorant Americans would shit on them, with anti-labor while they are in the same boat. But perhaps this brings up a new bill and pass of 7 day sick leave or at least 4.

As I pointed out a page ago, absolutists always seem willing to cause others harm or death for their agenda. As long as they or their loved ones aren't severely affected, they're all too willing to put people in the crossfire for their agenda.

Shutting down the rails wouldn't be a simple inconvenience. It would make most urban areas go without key resources, like fuel for power plants, medicine for hospitals, food for the hungry.

That people think this is some conniving anti-labor master plan by the Democrats, they're delusional. Simple as that. It's also misinformed. There are plenty of posts within the last few pages that point out rail workers got a VERY generous deal out of the bill that did pass. Far more generous than most workers get.

[Paranoid Android]

What you're calling 'sabotage' is in reality 'knowing what has the votes to pass and settling for a substantial incremental gain rather than achieving fuck all and getting roasted by the electorate for it'.

From what I read it was the bare minimum of giving the rail workers a raise and other points. It passed cause the Dems did the bare minimum and the Republicans, gave the crumbs. so yes, the choo-choo's could run on time.

You've already admitted that it's not able to be used as a weapon because people will just blame the unions and the Democrats if a strike happens.

Again; exactly what do you think giving the GOP electoral ammunition is going to accomplish if it helps them get into power? How is more anti-labor judges, regulations, and laws going to help labor, exactly?

On this I will just say the Dems should have done the right thing. Sorry for simple answer but if there is backlash now for a strike, I think long term, it shows the Dems fought for labor.

The bill has the votes to pass in the senate. It was filibustered. And you are blaming the Democrats for splitting it instead of the group that voted against and then filibustered it.

But the Democrats knew it was going to be filibustered. So easily put the everything in one bill and really, really make the Republicans kill it.

An oh, Joe Manchin, eff that guy.

And which political party would bear the full force of the blame in this situation?

Also, are there any economic risks associated with this that might hurt all kinds of people who have nothing to do with this even if they support unions? Will there be any political consequences for, "Democrats canceled Christmas this year."?

I can't answer clearly to blame. I'm a pessimist at heart and have stated the Republican media machine and just those voters will be brainwashed to blame rail workers for a strike. I think Dems would forgive an forget over a strike. Independents, who are low info likely side more with Republicans.

So this is important to your reply and others. This is the game. Corporations, media and politicians will blame the workers. So my big social comment here is how effed labor in the US and how as soon as they fight for something it's destroyed.

What on earth gives you any remote indication that Republicans would support any bills with sick leave baked into them given what they just did with the amendment, and given that they've repeatedly shown that they have zero problems literally shutting the country down multiple times?

Umm, I'm not sure. You got me there. I'm of course cynical of the Republicans and they would let it burn for say 1 day of sick leave, thinking and probably right the workers would collapse before the Corporations. But wouldn't it be something to see "What would Biden do". It's not federal so unlike Regan did to the Air Traffic Controllers he can't bust them.

[Templar 331]

And which political party would bear the full force of the blame in this situation?

Also, are there any economic risks associated with this that might hurt all kinds of people who have nothing to do with this even if they support unions? Will there be any political consequences for, "Democrats canceled Christmas this year."?

Because we know corporate media across the spectrum will pick a side and that it will not be the side of the unions, they already have made this clear.



What on earth gives you any remote indication that Republicans would support any bills with sick leave baked into them given what they just did with the amendment, and given that they've repeatedly shown that they have zero problems literally shutting the country down multiple times?

"Let's not do the right thing because it might go wrong and we'll get blamed for it" might be what happened but it's not a good argument to make. At the very least they can come out and say this was intended instead of parade this outcome as a victory.

[Elegiac]

From what I read it was the bare minimum of giving the rail workers a raise and other points. It passed cause the Dems did the bare minimum and the Republicans, gave the crumbs. so yes, the choo-choo's could run on time.

On this I will just say the Dems should have done the right thing. Sorry for simple answer but if there is backlash now for a strike, I think long term, it shows the Dems fought for labor.

So basically you're okay with material losses for labor as long as the Democrats are sufficiently performative in their support.

Okay, then.

[Cthulhu 2020]

From what I read it was the bare minimum of giving the rail workers a raise and other points. It passed cause the Dems did the bare minimum and the Republicans, gave the crumbs. so yes, the choo-choo's could run on time.



On this I will just say the Dems should have done the right thing. Sorry for simple answer but if there is backlash now for a strike, I think long term, it shows the Dems fought for labor.





But the Democrats knew it was going to be filibustered. So easily put the everything in one bill and really, really make the Republicans kill it.

An oh, Joe Manchin, eff that guy.



I can't answer clearly to blame. I'm a pessimist at heart and have stated the Republican media machine and just those voters will be brainwashed to blame rail workers for a strike. I think Dems would forgive an forget over a strike. Independents, who are low info likely side more with Republicans.

So this is important to your reply and others. This is the game. Corporations, media and politicians will blame the workers. So my big social comment here is how effed labor in the US and how as soon as they fight for something it's destroyed.



Umm, I'm not sure. You got me there. I'm of course cynical of the Republicans and they would let it burn for say 1 day of sick leave, thinking and probably right the workers would collapse before the Corporations. But wouldn't it be something to see "What would Biden do". It's not federal so unlike Regan did to the Air Traffic Controllers he can't bust them.

The "logic" in all of this seems to be "Republicans gonna Republican so I can't blame them for something that's gonna happen anyway, but I can blame the Democrats since I incorrectly believe they could have gotten a bill through that gave sick leave."

That's the point of this entire thing. Rail workers were never getting sick leave because Republicans wouldn't have voted for it, and they'd happily let urban areas starve.

- - - Updated - - -

So basically you're okay with material losses for labor as long as the Democrats are sufficiently performative in their support.

Okay, then.

This whole thing reminds me of the ideological purity tests of the Bernie wing during the 2016 election. "If you don't tow the socialist line hard enough, we're gonna vote for Trump."

[Endus]

Shutting down the rails wouldn't be a simple inconvenience. It would make most urban areas go without key resources, like fuel for power plants, medicine for hospitals, food for the hungry.

Why is it only ever the workers trying to get some basic protections who are considered to be at fault here and not the rail companies making literally billions off those workers' backs? I agree that it's terrible people might die. You know who'd be 100% responsible for that outcome? The rail companies and their owners, for not working with their unions to find a fair solution.

That's the most disturbing part about this rhetoric; the profiteering at human expense is given a moral and ethical "pass", and people who want a pretty minimal amount of paid sick leave are demonized for doing so. Can't ever stand up for your rights, workers, you have to suffer for corporate profit margins because that's just how it is.

Giving them their sick leave wasn't going to bankrupt the railroads, and if it's not gonna bankrupt the railroads, they have no justifiable argument against the union's requests.

Yeah, it would be shitty if the railroad owners pushed it so far that a strike caused economic harm. Maybe if capitalists are gonna be that violently abusive towards citizens, they have no business owning a company. Maybe it should be nationalized, precisely to prevent them using that kind of violent threat as their excuse for shortchanging their workers. Which is what happened, here.

[Paranoid Android]

So basically you're okay with material losses for labor as long as the Democrats are sufficiently performative in their support.

Okay, then.

Huh? I'm pro labor here. I'm calling out the Dems for first separating the bill in the House, second then being passed which in my take was a labor busting move, by not including the sick leave. I'm not fine at all with Dems being performative here, this is the worst thing of all this.

In short the Dems trying to say they a pro-labor and union after this is weak.

[Edge-]

I can't answer clearly to blame.

Look who's being blamed now. Same people/party.

I'm a pessimist at heart and have stated the Republican media machine and just those voters will be brainwashed to blame rail workers for a strike. I think Dems would forgive an forget over a strike. Independents, who are low info likely side more with Republicans.

All corporate media will go hard on blaming Democrats exclusively, as they're being blamed exclusively for this now. And this will absolutely impact Democratic and independent voters as well. We know that "your average voter" isn't not remotely immune or even resistant to being fed bullshit.

This is the game.

Yes, and Biden/Democrats are playing it while y'all are arguing that they should go all-in with a pair of 2's before the flop.

So my big social comment here is how effed labor in the US and how as soon as they fight for something it's destroyed.

Right now? Absolutely. The goal being to keep Democrats in power and push for bigger margins, allowing for more progressive Democrats to fill seats and for there to be the conditions to start "doing stuff" about the issue of labor rights/protections and unions in the US. We're seeing a big resurgence of unionization lately, so the field is being primed for this.

Umm, I'm not sure. You got me there. I'm of course cynical of the Republicans and they would let it burn for say 1 day of sick leave, thinking and probably right the workers would collapse before the Corporations. But wouldn't it be something to see "What would Biden do". It's not federal so unlike Regan did to the Air Traffic Controllers he can't bust them.

He...did something though? His administration negotiated the temporary deal that gave a signing bonus (retroactive apparently), wage increase, no penalties for sick days, and was supported by 2/3 of the respective unions involved?

Does that not count or something because Biden doesn't have the sole authority to "fix it"?

- - - Updated - - -

Why is it only ever the workers trying to get some basic protections who are considered to be at fault here and not the rail companies making literally billions off those workers' backs? I agree that it's terrible people might die. You know who'd be 100% responsible for that outcome? The rail companies and their owners, for not working with their unions to find a fair solution.

Because your average voter, especially those in the Republican media sphere, are painfully stupid and uninformed. We know this, the problem is a corporate controlled media sphere where they're all gonna tow the line for rail companies.

It's about working within the existing reality we share, not the one we wish we had.

[Paranoid Android]

Why is it only ever the workers trying to get some basic protections who are considered to be at fault here and not the rail companies making literally billions off those workers' backs? I agree that it's terrible people might die. You know who'd be 100% responsible for that outcome? The rail companies and their owners, for not working with their unions to find a fair solution.

That's the most disturbing part about this rhetoric; the profiteering at human expense is given a moral and ethical "pass", and people who want a pretty minimal amount of paid sick leave are demonized for doing so. Can't ever stand up for your rights, workers, you have to suffer for corporate profit margins because that's just how it is.

Giving them their sick leave wasn't going to bankrupt the railroads, and if it's not gonna bankrupt the railroads, they have no justifiable argument against the union's requests.

Yeah, it would be shitty if the railroad owners pushed it so far that a strike caused economic harm. Maybe if capitalists are gonna be that violently abusive towards citizens, they have no business owning a company. Maybe it should be nationalized, precisely to prevent them using that kind of violent threat as their excuse for shortchanging their workers. Which is what happened, here.

We in here in have discussed this is ALL on the corporations. They have cut the workforce by 30% the past few years, are insufficient on their schedule and whatever else I forgot. Yet, it's the workforce fault. Sad.

Oh btw this is almost exactly is or what happened in Great Britain. At least the party of the workers getting shitted on.

[Edge-]

Huh? I'm pro labor here. I'm calling out the Dems for first separating the bill in the House, second then being passed which in my take was a labor busting move, by not including the sick leave. I'm not fine at all with Dems being performative here, this is the worst thing of all this.

In short the Dems trying to say they a pro-labor and union after this is weak.

The argument being that by fully backing the union now and should there be an economic crisis/Christmas chaos as a result, chances of Democrats maintaining the Senate/White House (or taking back the House) go down. Which inherently sets labor/unions back as Republicans don't even pretend to give a shit or fight for much of a pittance overall, they're fully pro-corporate (as long as the corporation isn't involved in ESG investment) and usually fairly overtly hostile towards unions.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Why is it only ever the workers trying to get some basic protections who are considered to be at fault here and not the rail companies making literally billions off those workers' backs? I agree that it's terrible people might die. You know who'd be 100% responsible for that outcome? The rail companies and their owners, for not working with their unions to find a fair solution.

That's the most disturbing part about this rhetoric; the profiteering at human expense is given a moral and ethical "pass", and people who want a pretty minimal amount of paid sick leave are demonized for doing so. Can't ever stand up for your rights, workers, you have to suffer for corporate profit margins because that's just how it is.

Giving them their sick leave wasn't going to bankrupt the railroads, and if it's not gonna bankrupt the railroads, they have no justifiable argument against the union's requests.

Yeah, it would be shitty if the railroad owners pushed it so far that a strike caused economic harm. Maybe if capitalists are gonna be that violently abusive towards citizens, they have no business owning a company. Maybe it should be nationalized, precisely to prevent them using that kind of violent threat as their excuse for shortchanging their workers. Which is what happened, here.

Looking at the rhetoric surrounding this, the people who want sick leave aren't the ones being "demonized". They're being chastised for blaming Democrats for the lack of sick day resolution. The right is fully jumping on board the "hate Democrats" train that the workers are pushing, fueling and reinforcing the belief that this lies entirely on the shoulders of Democrats for splitting the bill.

This issue should be about what actually happened and who supports worker rights and who doesn't, but instead it's been made about "What could have been" under the false pretense that if Democrats wouldn't have split the bill, rail workers would likely have sick leave - which, you're a smart guy Endus, you know that would be false.

[postman1782]

Breaking: 3 power substations attacked with guns. Jan 6th perpetrators are posting suspicious messages, sounding like they're responsible, saying "this is God's judgment on the family friendly drag show" that was canceled, and acted ignorant.

https://twitter.com/cmclymer/status/1599253199126683650







That's the danger with unflinching absolutists. They don't care who gets hurt as long as they deliver their message.

It looks like the cops pretty much agreed with the woman that was bragging about it. Since they had a "prayer" with her. Fuck them, I hope they bring in the feds.

[Elegiac]

Why is it only ever the workers trying to get some basic protections who are considered to be at fault here and not the rail companies making literally billions off those workers' backs?

Because the US does not have a developed sense of class consciousness and until that reality is changed, hardline pro-labor stances are a political nonstarter.

[Fugus]

But the Democrats knew it was going to be filibustered. So easily put the everything in one bill and really, really make the Republicans kill it.

An oh, Joe Manchin, eff that guy.

So you would have rather the entire nation shut down and the rail workers get nothing instead? You are blaming the Democrats for the Republican's actions. You are living up to your avatars name on this one man.

You might want to actually think critically on this and stop going full tehdang like you are here.

[Xarkan]

So you would have rather the entire nation shut down and the rail workers get nothing instead? You are blaming the Democrats for the Republican's actions. You are living up to your avatars name on this one man.

You might want to actually think critically on this and stop going full tehdang like you are here.

I fail to see why the government should be involved in the resolution, if the government does then that pulls the teeth from the workers ability to get a reasonable deal

[Breccia]

I fail to see why the government should be involved in the resolution, if the government does then that pulls the teeth from the workers ability to get a reasonable deal

For most industries, they aren't. Rail travel is special and that law was never repealed.

[Fugus]

I fail to see why the government should be involved in the resolution, if the government does then that pulls the teeth from the workers ability to get a reasonable deal

If it was something like Star Bucks, McDonald’s or Walmart I could agree but the rail industry would have massive knock on impacts.

It would be like if the fire departments decided to go on strike. It’s just one of those things that are too big to allow.

But my personal view is if it is too big or important to allow a strike, it is too big or important to leave in the hands of private companies. Also too big to fail means too big to exist.

- - - Updated - - -

https://www.motherjones.com/politics...en-laptop-guo/

Old and all, but could the Twitter stuff combined with the leaked audio be enough to nail Bannon with the revenge porn laws? Depending on which state they can prosecute him in as they vary.

[unfilteredJW]

It is, which is why I wish that many would stop viewing it as a simple black/white issue of "you support unions or you don't."

No one views it as binary but you guys trying to downplay the criticism of Dems and the current pres.

Kindly fuck off with that.

In b4 I'm told I'm super leftist by some Rebub light scab.

[Cthulhu 2020]

No one views it as binary but you guys trying to downplay the criticism of Dems and the current pres.

Kindly fuck off with that.

In b4 I'm told I'm super leftist by some Rebub light scab.

Justifying harsher scrutiny of Dems than Republicans? Jumping all over anti-labor conspiracies that have no basis in reality? Pfffff

You didn't even tell me the number of the body count acceptable for this situation where the rail workers came out with VERY NICE terms.