Does mythic+ drop the same ilvl items as mythic raiding now?

[deenman]

Yes, but they listened to the hardcore raiders and made it much, much harder to get loot in m+ this expansion. Bye bye m+. Devs are designing the game for the top 20k players and no one else.

personaly i rly hated feeling forced to do m+ to be better in raids,i wanna raid not spam m+ all day....and im not even talking about ap here,just the gear,its one thing to do reps and be done with it,but m+ is just to much,i wish they just added resilience back and have a raid stats and a dungeon stat on gear,all 3 can work the same outdoors,but have bonuses for the specific places you get em from

[Biomega]

personaly i rly hated feeling forced to do m+ to be better in raids

That's a bit of a contradiction. You WANT to do better in raids, so you'll have to do M+. That's not "being forced", that's you wanting X and not liking the price it costs. It's like saying "I really hate feeling forced to work to drive a better car" - nobody is FORCING you but yourself, because there's something you want, and that something has a cost. That's absolutely and completely normal and how things always work.

,i wanna raid not spam m+ all day

So do that. Find people who share your preferences, and only do the thing you want. That's entirely and 100% possible. What you MIGHT be saying here, though, is "I want to raid at a higher level and progress there quickly, but I don't want to do the things necessary to be able to do that in a way that doesn't burden my teammates" - which, fair enough, you can totally have that preference. Just don't be surprised if your team mates go "uh we'd rather bring someone who carries their weight, sorry mate".

You can't demand to participate at a certain level, but not do the things you need to do to be able to compete at that level. That's not M+'s fault, that's always been the same way for the entire life of the game; it just articulated itself differently. E.g. in Vanilla, if you wanted to clear all the raids at "the highest level" (which in that case wasn't in-game difficulty, but how soon you cleared it/how quickly you progressed) you needed to do more than just level to max and show up each night. You had to farm consumables, do dungeons, etc. etc. Same as now: the higher up you go, the more the demands on you increase. If you don't want to satisfy those demands, you can't expect to get the rewards.

[Opeth69]

they just need to have m+ gear scale higher in m+ like how pvp gear scales in arena. I know so many players who want to push m+ but hate having to raid for the best gear for m+. If they made m+ gear same as mythic raid it would force raiders to m+ for optimal gearing. By having m+ gear scale in m+ they can make m+ gear outside of m+ stay around low mythic/end boss heroic i lv so mythic raiders dont have to spam it all season, but keep m+ only players happy as they can actually push and compete without being forced to raid. They already have this system in place for PvP gear, I dont get why they havent looked to do this already

[Tyris Flare]

Except that it doesn't, at all?
That same scrub group will struggle far more trying to play 5 meta specs rather than their "own specs". That's why they are scrubs to begin with.
And I acknowledge those two ideas, i just dont acknowledge that it's needed for doing weekly vault. Do you really believe that? Holy shit...

I didn't say it was *needed," only that it still matters.

A DH is S tier in a 2 and a 25, and someone playing it will have an easier time than a [bad class]

The handwave that "things only matter at the top!" is nonsense. They just dont matter as much

Otherwise ask about that heroic raid missing like 5 raid buffs

[Swnem]

m+ is overrated, because it's an extremely small group so the metas of a handful of specs are inevitably potent; 20 has metas too but due to more slots it's less severe; m+'s biggest advantage is that it can be easily formed in the middle of the day of any day.

they should re-introduce 10man hard mode; it would be in its own unique instances and not flex so it doesn't contaminate the competition; it would create a good middle ground between the tiny 5man and big 20.

Been saying that for ages, but they don't seem to want it. 10 man was super popular. Big raid groups are a hassle no one wants to deal with anymore.

[tomten]

I didn't say it was *needed," only that it still matters.

A DH is S tier in a 2 and a 25, and someone playing it will have an easier time than a [bad class]

The handwave that "things only matter at the top!" is nonsense. They just dont matter as much

Otherwise ask about that heroic raid missing like 5 raid buffs

Imagine actually believing DH is S tier haha.
With that said... You're wrong in your logic.
BDK was king last tier and continues to be it this expansion too...
A phenomenal BDK is amazing, truly outstanding. A bad one? Is the worst tank in the entire game.
So someone playing say a druid or dh? They will struggle far more trying to play bdk at a higher level than they can play classes.

But thats the thing, they dont matter... It really doesn't. Lets flip it around, why do you think it matters?
Why are you moving the goalposts from playing meta specs in m+ to having raid buffs in raids? Neither matter to that extent though, pretty much lust/hero matters and even that you can use drums.
Thats you acknowledging how wrong you are and giving up? Ok.

What makes or breaks any run, be it pvp, m+ or raiding? It's bad players. Not good players, playing "wrong"/"bad" specs.

[epigramx]

Been saying that for ages, but they don't seem to want it. 10 man was super popular. Big raid groups are a hassle no one wants to deal with anymore.

they usually say it in relation to mixing it with 20man maps and flex, which sucks because it ruins the competition and can't do hard modes correctly.

if the devs seriously think of it in terms of unique maps that are exclusive to 10man: they may see the light of its unique advantages.

[erifwodahs]

More like 2k lol

2k? 1.5-2k guilds alone complete CE each tier, thats 45-50k players, then you have a ton of guilds who are in second half of the mythic raid too and if you look at +20 keystones last season, which was really short, 10% of people did +20s, given that it was much much easier than season 1 +20, still, lots of people push keys - I took a "break" from pushing and only did keys up to 22-23 in S4 which puts my non meta spec into roughly 1.5k spec rank, some specs would have it lower and some specs much much higher, i.e. BDK would be around 4k rank for same rating.

[Swnem]

they usually say it in relation to mixing it with 20man maps and flex, which sucks because it ruins the competition and can't do hard modes correctly.

if the devs seriously think of it in terms of unique maps that are exclusive to 10man: they may see the light of its unique advantages.

I agree. I loved stuff such as Karazhan and Zul'aman back in the day. I have fond memories of the 10 man format.

[Biomega]

A big raid group is SOOO much more painful than a small one. If you have a core group of 6 or 7, to run a 10 man you only have to find a few more, instead of 13 or 14 more. It also means that you can be much less regimented with things like “who talks on discord”.

Sure it has upsides; it has downsides, too. Encounters tend to be less complex with smaller group size, because you can have less going on at the same time - just look at something like, say, mythic Anduin or Azshara, which had several groups of people doing several things, all of which constituted points of failure. With less people, you significantly reduce those points of failure, so while personal responsibility doesn't disappear, it's much easier to get, say, 5 people to do something right than it is to get 10 people to do it right. ESPECIALLY when it's something that actually depends on players around you, like area denial etc. all of which is massively easier if there's twice the room to maneuver because of half the people in the raid. Simply reducing room size doesn't scale, as you can't well have every boss in a broom closet.

There's a reason they decided to go with 20 and not 10 when they changed raid sizes. They knew all the advantages, but at the end of the day, it just makes for far less interesting encounter design because of the way the game is set up. This isn't FF14 where every boss is just fought in the same little square.

[Tyris Flare]

Imagine actually believing DH is S tier haha.

Is that serious?

So someone playing say a druid or dh? They will struggle far more trying to play bdk at a higher level than they can play classes.

Sure, player skill matters. No one would claim otherwise? But we're talking about distributions, not individuals. On average, a person will be better off playing a powerful class than a weaker one in all forms of content.

Why are you moving the goalposts from playing meta specs in m+ to having raid buffs in raids? Neither matter to that extent though, pretty much lust/hero matters and even that you can use drums.
Thats you acknowledging how wrong you are and giving up? Ok.

It's a general principle that applies to the entire game. Playing something meta in given content (whatever that content is) is typically better at all skill levels.

What makes or breaks any run, be it pvp, m+ or raiding? It's bad players. Not good players, playing "wrong"/"bad" specs.

Yes. This doesn't contract anything that has been said. Again, try to hold two ideas at the same time.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

2k? 1.5-2k guilds alone complete CE each tier, thats 45-50k players, then you have a ton of guilds who are in second half of the mythic raid too and if you look at +20 keystones last season, which was really short, 10% of people did +20s, given that it was much much easier than season 1 +20, still, lots of people push keys - I took a "break" from pushing and only did keys up to 22-23 in S4 which puts my non meta spec into roughly 1.5k spec rank, some specs would have it lower and some specs much much higher, i.e. BDK would be around 4k rank for same rating.

Someone who gets CE 4-6 months into a tier is not the same as someone getting it in 1-2 though.

The argument is that the content and game seems increasingly designed for the latter group, a couple thousand players tops.

Though even if it is 50k that's really pitiful with a few million subs.

[Biomega]

I don't see a single positive in what you described. I absolutely get how the math works... if everyone plays perfectly 80% of the time, a 10 man will get a kill every 9 pulls, and a 20 man will get a kill every 87 pulls. But honestly, the idea of wiping 87 times after everyone knows the fight to 80% certainty on anything but an endboss seems awful, and it's the norm for mythic these days. People just extend lockouts and pull for days. I miss the days of reclearing for gear so that it got easier, then doing 10 or 15 pulls at the end of a run.

Try to see it from a perspective that isn't just your own personal preference. There's people who WANT challenging encounters, and who'd quit the game if the highest difficulty was just a steamroll for them. For people not interested in that, we already have lower difficulties with flexible raid sizes, where you can raid with 10 people right now. Changing mythic to 10-man would screw over the people actually interested in having a high-difficulty mode, while not actually changing much for people who don't want that kind of challenge, since they can already do the next-lower difficulty with 10 people right now.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

Try to see it from a perspective that isn't just your own personal preference. There's people who WANT challenging encounters, and who'd quit the game if the highest difficulty was just a steamroll for them. For people not interested in that, we already have lower difficulties with flexible raid sizes, where you can raid with 10 people right now. Changing mythic to 10-man would screw over the people actually interested in having a high-difficulty mode, while not actually changing much for people who don't want that kind of challenge, since they can already do the next-lower difficulty with 10 people right now.

This might be true but have you met many hardcore wow raiders lol? I mean they literally have nowhere else to go, so it's pretty hard for them to quit.

[Biomega]

This might be true but have you met many hardcore wow raiders lol? I mean they literally have nowhere else to go, so it's pretty hard for them to quit.

I have, and I have.

I now play single-player RPGs modded for hardcore difficulty. It's not the same, but it's still a nice challenge. WoW isn't the be-all end-all of things, and alternatives to WoW don't have to be 1:1 replacements.

That being said, the lack of difficulty wasn't what made ME quit, but even shut-in little me knows dozens of people who'd quit in a heartbeat if there was no more top-tier challenge content in WoW.

[erifwodahs]

Someone who gets CE 4-6 months into a tier is not the same as someone getting it in 1-2 though.

The argument is that the content and game seems increasingly designed for the latter group, a couple thousand players tops.

Though even if it is 50k that's really pitiful with a few million subs.

Moving goal posts much, huh. I would agree with you that 50k was pitiful if only 50k could access content, but trust me, every single player who manages to reach max level has access to all of the content and difficulty levels to accommodate every single player are pretty good.

[Merin]

personaly i rly hated feeling forced to do m+ to be better in raids,i wanna raid not spam m+

And I want raiding to die 10 years ago like it should have.

[deenman]

And I want raiding to die 10 years ago like it should have.

why?no1 forces you to spam raids 24/7 like with m+

[Ashana Darkmoon]

I have, and I have.

I now play single-player RPGs modded for hardcore difficulty. It's not the same, but it's still a nice challenge. WoW isn't the be-all end-all of things, and alternatives to WoW don't have to be 1:1 replacements.

That being said, the lack of difficulty wasn't what made ME quit, but even shut-in little me knows dozens of people who'd quit in a heartbeat if there was no more top-tier challenge content in WoW.

Yeah idk most are not going to be happy with single players stuff probably. I mean almost everyone I knew in the HoF guild on my old server had no job or a job but no social life. Basically bitching about wow non stop while being unable to go anywhere else because it was a lifestyle as much as a game

- - - Updated - - -

Moving goal posts much, huh. I would agree with you that 50k was pitiful if only 50k could access content, but trust me, every single player who manages to reach max level has access to all of the content and difficulty levels to accommodate every single player are pretty good.

Being designed for someone isn't about "having access to the content" lol

The original point here is that the max gear reward difficulty from m+ went up a ton this expansion, from 15-20 and with like double scaling. That's a huge difference and I guess we'll find out if people are happy with it or if they crater it with nerfs in Jan/Feb

[LordVargK]

Meta is a community thing and not reality. Exactly every spec in the entire game can do +20 with ez.
I'd go as far as you could do +28s in s4 with literally any spec.

A good player can do a +20 key with ease on any spec. But most players are not good. Meta specs don't require you to be a good player to do +20 with ease, that's the difference between meta and off meta.
And gear, of course.