Gameplay's great, but a few story rants

[Aucald]

It could easily be both, really, with Raz as either the first or last one dealt with. The first would mean that Neltharion would pull back afterwards, Malygos likewise, to deal with the Dracthyr and the fallout and he'd be more withdrawn if what to do with them after the rest were caught ultimately came to a vote. If she was the last one dealt with, likewise - he already captured one and capture stands to reason. It's not like that Raz was sealed was hidden from the other Aspects, just the means of how it was done. It's described as a war after all, and it could easily have gone from a more local phase to a bigger one or vice versa.

That would make sense in terms that Raszageth being imprisoned in a different place from her peers, her being the last to be handled in an operation headed by Neltharion. But it's not really made explicit either in the shorts or in-game, and the cinematics make it seem like he handled the sealing of the Incarnates himself. Also, why would the other Aspects put Neltharion in such a predicament, to begin with, if they'd already done the job of sealing the others, and why would Raszageth have such a personal beef with Alexstrasza if Neltharion was the person who imprisoned her? The Aspects are kind of defined in Twilight of the Aspects as deriving their power from working as one, so it seems thematically odd that they would leave such a task up to one of their number as opposed to tackling it head-on as a group.

Either way, it seems poorly hashed out to me.

[voidox]

WoW has generally had quests that run the gamut from involved or narratively complex to ones that are just dressed-up fetch quests in which you collect X bear haunches or zebra hooves. This goes all the way back to Classic, although I'd say the ratio has gone from favoring fetch quests to at least trying to tie in the quests thematically to the zone's current goings-on a bit more. One thing I appreciate in more modern WoW is that NPC interactions tend to have a more organic feel - as opposed to the completely stationary NPCs of yore who do nothing but stand in one place and dole out fetch quests. There's more of a sense of interaction and involvement in a lot of the Dragonflight simple questing, with NPCs moving along with you or participating in the quest than just being fixed points. This was true in Shadowlands and even BfA as well, but they seem to have refined the technique a bit more.

This isn't to say some quests aren't still anvilicious or mind-croggling all the same, there's definitely still that. The Ohn'ahran Plains are kind of bad for it - lots of "hunting" style quests that, while a thematic fit for the zone and the Maruuk, are still kind of rote and boring. Leveling chores and nothing more.

honestly, I really don't know why quest design remains like this as the years have gone on. Especially for this "third age" of wow (as they put it in the preach video), where Blizzard want to move away from systems and all that, why don't the devs put in some actual effort and creativity into evolving the formula of quest design in the game? why must most all quests come down to the same old "pick up, kill X or fetch Y, turn in" even after all these years? :/

and tbf, this not a matter exclusive to WoW, as many MMOs and RPGs are lazy with quest design and just go with the boring old kill X/fetch Y. But I wish the devs would put in some work to evolve things, more than just theming quests to a zone and only sprinkling in some non kill/fetch quests here and there.

of course this isn't an easy task, but there have been a lot of creative and varied quest design in RPGs over the years and there is really no reason MMOs stay with the boring kill/fetch shit.
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Imagine if we got zones that featured more story driven quests with player choice leading to real results and consequences in the world, break up quests into smaller consumable tasks that maintain momentum, make the character be a little bit involved in some way, more puzzle type quests, investigation quests that really involve the player looking for clues and such, more exclusive quests to player choice (such as character class, race, faction or even more creative things like maybe which weapon the player is using, armor specific quests and so on), maybe more minigames/easy QTE parts to quests and the ideas go on.

Also narrative is very important to quests. Make the quest mean something to us - making it matter is how you get more people interested and not just about the quest reward. Even for people who don't care about story, you can still make quests interesting enough that they are engaged with it beyond just "accept -> turn in -> move on".

Instead of just a window with quest text, spread the quest narrative throughout the quest with NPCs talking to players and being a part of the quest (of course not for every quest). Similar to how ESO handles quest dialogue but many ESO npcs still do the "stand around" thing, that needs to change into more involvement.

While DF has done better with story/NPC involvement in quests, wow still lags behind even many MMOs in terms of how story is woven into quests and the potential to how story can be better woven into quests. Even for kill/fetch quests, much more can be done instead of the boring "run to NPC, pick up and give in quest".

also with quest initiation, again wow does do this but honestly it should be done more - quests should be more organic in nature in how players accept them. Instead of the exclamation mark to get a quest, more quests should be discoverable as you explore the world.

e.g. getting quests by overhearing NPCs out in the world, picking up quests from a town board, finding quests in the cave rather than being told to go to the cave, getting quests from finding objects (like letters, a dead body, so on), quests with more personal goals for the player (Maybe they hear of a great and powerful beast, that they can hunt down, track, and kill, and if they do so gain a whole bunch of fame or renown or whatever), have the story more naturally guide players into new places to explore and find quests rather than NPCs saying "oh go here next" or just looking for exclamation marks.

this helps make the world feel more alive and plays into the aspect of zone exploration. Imagine a scenario where while you are zooming around dragon flying, you see a small village on fire and go down to see what's going on. Then the plays into how you find about the village being attacked and the quests naturally show up to help save the village and push back the attackers. Also completing the quests leads to a real world change where the village is no longer on fire and rebuild/people moving back in after you save it.
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so ya, long bunch of thoughts here, but the tl;dr is that it's long past time that the quest design of WoW (and MMOs in general) should evovle past most of it still being "kill X or fetch Y".

You can dress up the kill/fetch quests in w.e way (around a zone, dungeon, w.e) but they are still the boring "find exclamation mark -> pick up quest -> boring quest text instead of dialouge telling you everything -> kill/fetch -> turn in" formula. There is so much that can be done with quest design and a lot of potential in how quests can be made more interesting, interactive, fun, creative and evolved past kill/fetch.

[Reinhart11]

I think one of Blizz's big weaknesses is that they don't really do much detail for magic, there's no meaningful difference between the arcane magic practiced by the blue dragons in the nexus with all their cool blue math runes, and the magic practiced by the kirin tor... and the magic practiced by say, a Zandalari or Forsaken mage, even though there should be at least SOME stylistic variations. I hope they expand on how the elemental powers the Primalists are using might be different from the shamanism and elemental-arcane stuff mages have been using for years.

The decay stuff is interesting because that was usually associated with 'dark shamanism' though I still think their handling of decay has been... weird.

Yes, that is a real shame. I cringed when i saw the Blood Knights and Sunwalkers when i saw them in human centric Silver Hand paladin class order hall.

And now apparently Zandalari and Tauren mages are part of the Kirin Tor to study magic. These races should have or develop their own traditions in that regard. Homogenization at its finest. Why develop interesting Horde mages and organizations when you can whip out Khadgar and the Kirin Tor. Hell, i would be fine if the blue flight acted as teachers, that would fit the setting, but even the motherfucking Dragonaspect of Magic is part of the Kirin Tor.

[Easyclassictopkeklel]

If you want good stories, read a book. Don't expect an 15 year old MMO to shine when it comes to lore...the majority of the playerbase doesn't even care a bit about what is happening in the story.

[Skytotem]

If you want good stories, read a book. Don't expect an 15 year old MMO to shine when it comes to lore...the majority of the playerbase doesn't even care a bit about what is happening in the story.

It doesn't have to shine but it should be better than it is, it just needs some common sense flavor repairs.

And the reason chunks of the playerbase don't care is that the flavor hasn't been maintained well (Horde villainbat, Alliance being made too neutral, etc) and Blizz hasn't properly handled consistency in the storytelling and characterization.

[Nymrohd]

You can dress up the kill/fetch quests in w.e way (around a zone, dungeon, w.e) but they are still the boring "find exclamation mark -> pick up quest -> boring quest text instead of dialouge telling you everything -> kill/fetch -> turn in" formula. There is so much that can be done with quest design and a lot of potential in how quests can be made more interesting, interactive, fun, creative and evolved past kill/fetch.

There is only so much the engine can do though. It was designed for kill/fetch quests. everything else seems to need custom work.

[voidox]

There is only so much the engine can do though. It was designed for kill/fetch quests. everything else seems to need custom work.

hm, I don't think engine limitations hamper creative quest design especially when we have seen Blizzard attempt more creative quests before or with their more creative WQs. Sure it would require custom work to implement, but my point was that in this "third age of wow" quest design should be something Blizzard works on as they are moving away from expansion systems towards more evergreen content. Can make quests actual interesting content for the game instead of something to just rush through.

Imagine that instead of implementing some system for a new patch, Blizzard make the patch questing more varied, fun, challenging, interesting, involved and so on for players. The questing then can become the real content of a patch instead of people rushing through the really boring kill/fetch quests to get to the patch content.

I dunno, I just think that after all these years, why are the majority of quests still kill/fetch when there is much more that can be done.

[Nymrohd]

I'll wait for Blizzard to figure out why I am in combat first and maybe then we can get better questing.

[Biomega]

I feel like these two lines contradict each other?

That's just a typo, it's obviously meant to be "isn't" I corrected it

[Khaza-R]

If you want good stories, read a book. Don't expect an 15 year old MMO to shine when it comes to lore...the majority of the playerbase doesn't even care a bit about what is happening in the story.

No one is expecting novel writing. They can't even pull off a mediocre story at this point. No need to try and make excuses for them.

[WowClassic]

Story's way better than when the sex-pests were in full charge. I'd rather chuds call the game woke than have a garbage story, thanks.

Regardless, I'm feeling very optimistic about the optics of the story. There's definitely some room to improve still but it's much, much better than the forced-down-your-throat nature of BfA and SL.

I can see your blue hair from here

[Iheartnathanos]

The "Sealed Evil in a Can" trope is pretty much endemic to fantasy, though I do agree it's an overused trope all the same.

This is also what happens when a narrative is franchised and needs to be endless. How many times can Joker escape from Arkham? If WoW were the work of an author, it would have ended with Legion, or the death of N’zoth. But its gotta keep going.

[Aucald]

This is also what happens when a narrative is franchised and needs to be endless. How many times can Joker escape from Arkham? If WoW were the work of an author, it would have ended with Legion, or the death of N’zoth. But its gotta keep going.

I actually think it would've ended with WotLK, but I suppose one can really draw the line at any of the Golden or Silver Age expansions.

[tommyhil622]

That would make sense in terms that Raszageth being imprisoned in a different place from her peers, her being the last to be handled in an operation headed by Neltharion. But it's not really made explicit either in the shorts or in-game, and the cinematics make it seem like he handled the sealing of the Incarnates himself. Also, why would the other Aspects put Neltharion in such a predicament, to begin with, if they'd already done the job of sealing the others, and why would Raszageth have such a personal beef with Alexstrasza if Neltharion was the person who imprisoned her? The Aspects are kind of defined in Twilight of the Aspects as deriving their power from working as one, so it seems thematically odd that they would leave such a task up to one of their number as opposed to tackling it head-on as a group.

Either way, it seems poorly hashed out to me.

I hear ya, but Nelthearion and Malygos are both dead. So why wouldn't Raszageth target Alexstraza, her being the leader after all, and one of the few surviving members of the aspects. Also Alexstraza is directly responsible to continuing the life of the flights as they are now (titan influenced). To me it makes sense that she would be the prime target. If Nelthearion were alive, then i would agree with you.

[HansOlo]

This is also what happens when a narrative is franchised and needs to be endless. How many times can Joker escape from Arkham? If WoW were the work of an author, it would have ended with Legion, or the death of N’zoth. But its gotta keep going.

I actually think it would've ended with WotLK, but I suppose one can really draw the line at any of the Golden or Silver Age expansions.

So you are taking the story like some possession. That is very interesting and very selfish(considering how many people still enjoying the game).

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If you want good stories, read a book. Don't expect an 15 year old MMO to shine when it comes to lore...the majority of the playerbase doesn't even care a bit about what is happening in the story.

Thank you - been spending 2 weeks expressing this. Glad to read myself.

[Aucald]

I hear ya, but Nelthearion and Malygos are both dead. So why wouldn't Raszageth target Alexstraza, her being the leader after all, and one of the few surviving members of the aspects. Also Alexstraza is directly responsible to continuing the life of the flights as they are now (titan influenced). To me it makes sense that she would be the prime target. If Nelthearion were alive, then i would agree with you.

A prime target, yes; but the way Raszageth speaks to Alexstrasza seems to denote that she blames Alexstrasza directly for her plight - as if she were directly involved when it seems as though it was Neltharion's doing in actuality. Raszageth seems to hate anything that bears what she feels is the taint of Titantic influence, but in most cases, her hatred is a detail, something she uses to demean and belittle. With Alexstrasza it seems more personal, and her dialogue in that cutscene seems to straight-up blame Alexstrasza for her imprisonment.

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So you are taking the story like some possession. That is very interesting and very selfish(considering how many people still enjoying the game).

That's an odd accusation to make - exactly how does saying that mean the story is somehow my possession, and how would it make me selfish? I'm glad people are still enjoying the game, and I'm still enjoying the game myself. Doesn't change the fact that I think the closing of WotLK basically serves as the concluding chapter of the arc WC3 began and is the close of WoW's Golden Age as an IP. My view in no way implies you or anyone else aren't allowed to enjoy the game - it doesn't even imply you have to agree with me (as I pointedly said one could draw their line in other places). Someone having a different opinion than you is not a personal attack.

[Le Conceptuel]

So you are taking the story like some possession. That is very interesting and very selfish(considering how many people still enjoying the game).

I think what they're trying to express is that the story simply has gone on too long, not necessarily that it should revolve around their tastes. They're simply expressing an opinion about where the plot should've ended.

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I actually think it would've ended with WotLK, but I suppose one can really draw the line at any of the Golden or Silver Age expansions.

I'd personally say Legion is a better candidate for that. There were so many storylines wrapped up neatly, and it felt much more like a climax for all the people of Azeroth than WotLK did.

Personally, though, I would attribute most of the storyline problems to a very iffy progression. I think the whole expansion model does sort of come with that packed in, but I still feel like there was a better way to handle the progression in general. If Blizzard didn't blow through all the potential expansion content in content patches and the like (see Nazjatar, Emerald Nightmare, aaaaarguably Argus, though the last I think was fair as a patch), the plot probably wouldn't have felt like it should've ended by now, or at least as recently.

[Aucald]

I'd personally say Legion is a better candidate for that. There were so many storylines wrapped up neatly, and it felt much more like a climax for all the people of Azeroth than WotLK did.

Personally, though, I would attribute most of the storyline problems to a very iffy progression. I think the whole expansion model does sort of come with that packed in, but I still feel like there was a better way to handle the progression in general. If Blizzard didn't blow through all the potential expansion content in content patches and the like (see Nazjatar, Emerald Nightmare, aaaaarguably Argus, though the last I think was fair as a patch), the plot probably wouldn't have felt like it should've ended by now, or at least as recently.

I'd say Legion is a fair pick, what I consider the last of the Silver Age despite some rockiness in the chapter bookmarks. I don't think I'd necessarily say the argument is one of scope as much as it of theme, but it's a fair enough argument in any case - Legion closes out the Burning Legion story arc that sort of started Warcraft rolling in the first place, as it were. I tend to think of WoW starting as a continuation of the WC3 storyline that essentially changed the tenor of Warcraft entirely - moving from the largely binary story of the RTS to a wider scope narrative, with the threat of the Legion dealt with on at least a local level, and I'd have to admit that back in 2004 I never actually thought we'd have a story where we even came close to facing down Sargeras himself.

One sad aspect of MMORPG storytelling is that it is by necessity both modular and episodic. This narrative straightjacket has always caused no end of issues with the kind of storytelling the writers seem to want to employ, and that's beyond the issue that the writers themselves are of, let's say varying quality. This isn't to say WoW doesn't have some great stories in it, because it does; but the epic model of storytelling that high fantasy lends itself to doesn't really map so well on an episodic foundation where the story can't really stretch its legs or breathe. Certain arcs are worse for wear in this context than others, but the issues have been a constant since day one.