Dragonflight rant - Where did the production value go ?

[heltvild]

It's amazing how much Blizzard caters to people who don't want to play the game this expansion. It's almost like they learned nothing from WoD and why Legion saved the game. You have to wonder at what point an MMO stops being an MMO and becomes a raid logging simulator.

Which it has always been exepct the last few expacs, playing wotlk classic now on the side cleared naxx on first week and now there is pretty much zero stuff to do besides a few boring mostly useless dailies and raid logging 1 time a week to clear naxx

[cuafpr]

I mean yeah, sure. But these past few expansions the content was there, if gated. Suramar, War campaign, covenant campaigns and features, that stuff was there from day one, and people were still scrambling to finish some of it up in the last few weeks of SL to get Veilstrider. This time... it's just not existing.

which is essentially the same point if it was there and gated, people would complain.. it could be in a patch so people can't see it. Heck, I'm not at 67 and in the second zone, at this rate I'll prob be 70 well before I'm done with leveling stuff.

[HansOlo]

So far DF sounds like WotLK Classic, just with new zones and flying and few QoL things and with less class identity.

Exactly what it is. It's not a bad thing - it can't be as WOTLK is still a thing today.

So, why do we complain about something very similar to WOTLK? I think the answer is boredom and burnout.

[Darsyek]

I am extremely ambivalent about Dragonflight. What we got is very good, dragon riding is awesome and should have been a thing a long time ago, professions are pretty engaging and feel pretty good so far.
But what we got is also... really not much.

You would think the efforts that went into four covenant campaigns being funneled into a single experience would yield quite the amount of content, but this is what we get ?

This expansion has been out literally for only one week. Let's compare to Shadowlands:

Week one Shadowlands had (at max level)
-Dungeons
-World Quests
-PVP
-A single chapter of each covenant story
-A handful of Maw dailies
-Torghast

Week one Dragonlands had (at max level)
-Dungeons
-World Quests
-PVP
-Max level story campaign
-Dragonriding (Races, exploration, collecting glyphs)
-Reputation features (Rock climbing, cataloging, fishing holes, nomads)
-World events (Grand Hunts, Sieges, community feasts)

That's not even including the revamped profession system and everything tied to that like crafting orders or the new features added to even gathering professions to make those more interesting like the elemental nodes with unique effects (and the spells you can learn throw specialization to add even more, like Herbalism's Overload Elemental Herb system). It doesn't include features like the waygate unlocks or the cobalt assembly, which is essentially a Torghast-lite that comes with the added benefit of being totally optional and not a complete chore to do. If you genuinely feel like this expansion lacks content to do at max level, on the first week of the expansion, and genuinely think it's the "weakest you've seen since returning to the game for Legion" then you clearly are not paying attention. Dragonflights features may not be as big and flashy as other expansions, but there's a HELL of a lot more of them and the best part is that none of it is mandatory and shoved down your throat because it's the only way to get legendaries or conduits or whatever else system gives you power this season.

[Thirtyrock]

Keep up with who? Plenty of mythic raiders play very limited hours and do very limited content - but they certainly wont be getting any world or realm firsts or anything like that.

honestly, with my expectations of myself. I'm in a 1 night per week heroic/Mythic raid group and they don't require anything outside of attendance. I was putting pressure on myself. I knew that and wouldn't give in, but I still felt bad about not maxing everything out.

[JustaRandomReindeer]

This expansion has been out literally for only one week. Let's compare to Shadowlands:

Week one Shadowlands had (at max level)
-Dungeons
-World Quests
-PVP
-A single chapter of each covenant story
-A handful of Maw dailies
-Torghast

Week one Dragonlands had (at max level)
-Dungeons
-World Quests
-PVP
-Max level story campaign
-Dragonriding (Races, exploration, collecting glyphs)
-Reputation features (Rock climbing, cataloging, fishing holes, nomads)
-World events (Grand Hunts, Sieges, community feasts)

That's not even including the revamped profession system and everything tied to that like crafting orders or the new features added to even gathering professions to make those more interesting like the elemental nodes with unique effects (and the spells you can learn throw specialization to add even more, like Herbalism's Overload Elemental Herb system). It doesn't include features like the waygate unlocks or the cobalt assembly, which is essentially a Torghast-lite that comes with the added benefit of being totally optional and not a complete chore to do. If you genuinely feel like this expansion lacks content to do at max level, on the first week of the expansion, and genuinely think it's the "weakest you've seen since returning to the game for Legion" then you clearly are not paying attention. Dragonflights features may not be as big and flashy as other expansions, but there's a HELL of a lot more of them and the best part is that none of it is mandatory and shoved down your throat because it's the only way to get legendaries or conduits or whatever else system gives you power this season.

It is very convenient to skip mentioning the maw events, assaults, callings, mission table, secret reputations, all the different covenant features, and so on. It is completely fair to say that DF has less endgame content than the past few expansions no matter how you slice it.

[Thirtyrock]

I completely agree that there is hardly anything to do. We are literally in the first ID and I did take my time to level my char and got to 70 on saturday.
I've completed the quests in the zones (at least those I could find, no idea why they removed the quest marker from available quests from the world map), and the world quests. The weekly quest I had completed within 3h of hitting 70, and over the weekend we've completed all m+0s.
So yesterday I logged in, looked at the map, and there was nothing to do for me. Three days after hitting max level!? Sure I could fly around hoping to get a rare or some event, but I want to play a mmo and not some open world game where I have to fly blindly around and get myself something to do.

And currently I even still can get upgrades from the world content, I dare not even imagine how empty this is going to feel once I outgeared the world content. I actually hope there will be something to do besides raid/m+ logging that they have up their sleeves that is going to be unlocked with renown, or I don't think this expansion is for me.

How many hours of playtime should a mmo expansion launch with? Sounds like you managed about 30-40 hours or more before you ran out of stuff to do and that's before M+ or raids are released...Most single player games offer 50ish hours of playtime, don't they? Sounds like you might just be causing your own problem?

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Why did they spend 2 years removing the fun out of every feature that made Legion good or straight up removing features when they didn't have to? When people complained that BfA and SL did not feel like Legion 2.0 but more like Legion 0.5 they weren't asking for Blizzard to give us WoD 2.0.

The return to the roots philosophy is trash when the roots are rotted. Legion was a step in the right direction but ever since then we have only been going backwards. It truly feels like the past 4 years we have been in a limbo sitting and waiting for a proper sequel to Legion. It wasn't BfA, it wasn't SL, it's not DF either. All of these feel like some side content and wasted time. I am not sure what kind of statistic led them to the conclusion that returning to pre-Legion days is the right decision when the last 3 pre-Legion expansions were bleeding players like crazy and almost killed the game.

People always talk about the sub numbers but never post any actual data...If you have actual data, I would love to see it. Until then, I'll see this as "I'm not happy and I quit so other people must be doing the same"

[Darsyek]

It is very convenient to skip mentioning the maw events, assaults, callings, mission table, secret reputations, all the different covenant features, and so on. It is completely fair to say that DF has less endgame content than the past few expansions no matter how you slice it.

Many of those features carried forward into Dragonflight as well. Many covenant features became reputation features. The travel network became the waygate system, callings were replaced by the weekly rep quest, maw events became the events we have now like siege and grand hunt and maw assaults weren't even a thing at launch so that's irrelevant to this discussion, the only features that didn't get carried forward in some way and weren't intrinsically tied to what the covenant was about (ember court, path of ascension, abomination stitching, conservatory) were mission tables and the Anima reservoir. Many conduits became talents, along with several legendary effects. There is no universe were Dragonflight has less content than Shadowlands at launch.

[P for Pancetta]

Dragonflight looks uninspired too me. especially the zones. They're all bland. The evokers looks bad too esp their visage forms. The new centaur models are laughably bad looking like they got ported straight from a mobile rts.

Then amount of content compared to other xpacs is a joke. If you can't see that you should probably make an appointment with neurologist.

[Thirtyrock]

Many of those features carried forward into Dragonflight as well. Many covenant features became reputation features. The travel network became the waygate system, callings were replaced by the weekly rep quest, maw events became the events we have now like siege and grand hunt and maw assaults weren't even a thing at launch so that's irrelevant to this discussion, the only features that didn't get carried forward in some way and weren't intrinsically tied to what the covenant was about (ember court, path of ascension, abomination stitching, conservatory) were mission tables and the Anima reservoir. Many conduits became talents, along with several legendary effects. There is no universe were Dragonflight has less content than Shadowlands at launch.

You're getting sucked into a pointless semantic argument here. What is content? Is it stuff you HAVE to do? Is it stuff that you GET to do? Is it stuff you LIKE to do? If something is timegated so you can't complete it the first week and have to do it the second does that mean there's more content than if it wasn't timegated?

In the end, if people feel bored, that's a problem. But that doesn't NECESSARILY mean it's a problem with the game...

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Dragonflight looks uninspired too me. especially the zones. They're all bland. The evokers looks bad too esp their visage forms. The new centaur models are laughably bad looking like they got ported straight from a mobile rts.

Then amount of content compared to other xpacs is a joke. If you can't see that you should probably make an appointment with neurologist.

The zone design is spectacular, imo. They look enormous, there's tons to explore whether from the air or the ground. I don't care about how the Evokers or centaurs look, so I don't have anything to say there.

I feel like I have plenty to do but it all feels optional, which is awesome in my book.

[JustaRandomReindeer]

People always talk about the sub numbers but never post any actual data...If you have actual data, I would love to see it. Until then, I'll see this as "I'm not happy and I quit so other people must be doing the same"

What sub numbers are you talking about? The sub numbers for WoD are public, you can go check them.

[Thirtyrock]

What sub numbers are you talking about? The sub numbers for WoD are public, you can go check them.

...returning to pre-Legion days is the right decision when the last 3 pre-Legion expansions were bleeding players like crazy and almost killed the game.

So, 3 expansions pre legion - That would be WoD, Mists, and Cata, correct? So, show me the sub data? A link is fine, but I'd like to see something reputable. I have a hard time believing that Mists was lower than Cata. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'd like to see the data instead of taking your word for it, no offense intended there

[JustaRandomReindeer]

So, 3 expansions pre legion - That would be WoD, Mists, and Cata, correct? So, show me the sub data? A link is fine, but I'd like to see something reputable. I have a hard time believing that Mists was lower than Cata. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'd like to see the data instead of taking your word for it, no offense intended there

Blizzard were reporting sub numbers until around 2015 and then they stopped after the WoD dip.

[tomten]

For reference, I took two days off for vacation and I worked from home on Wednesday. I work as a QAE and I work a lot of hours. Just incase I was about to be hit with, “you’re just a WoW no-lifer”. .

Bro did you really say you took 2 days vacation off for wow and then trying to say you're not a wow no-lifer in the same sentence. While having 5 lvl 70's? You don't feel that contradicts itself? You're 100% a no lifer but that doesn't mean its a bad thing? You just do what you enjoy but lets not pretend you're the norm? Even if i'm being nice with 8 hours per char and some change? That's still 50 hours wow, over an entire work week spent in wow.
There is almost no content, its extremely buggy, constant disconnect on using dragonriding, tons of beta errors carrying over, just as OP describes. He's not wrong, he's just hyperbole, just like you are here.

[Darsyek]

You're getting sucked into a pointless semantic argument here. What is content? Is it stuff you HAVE to do? Is it stuff that you GET to do? Is it stuff you LIKE to do? If something is timegated so you can't complete it the first week and have to do it the second does that mean there's more content than if it wasn't timegated?

In the end, if people feel bored, that's a problem. But that doesn't NECESSARILY mean it's a problem with the game...

Not sure how pointing out that if the majority of features from the previous expansion are carried over to the new expansion that then added more features on top of that means it has more content is an argument over semantics, but you do you, boo. Content by definition is the things held or included within something, and if I can make a list that shows quantifiably that the contents of one exceed the contents of another, it's not a matter of philosophical musings over what each individual considers content. Content is not a subjective measure, it's a finite, countable set.

[Thirtyrock]

Blizzard were reporting sub numbers until around 2015 and then they stopped after the WoD dip.

Thank you.

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Not sure how pointing out that if the majority of features from the previous expansion are carried over to the new expansion that then added more features on top of that means it has more content is an argument over semantics, but you do you, boo. Content by definition is the things held or included within something, and if I can make a list that shows quantifiably that the contents of one exceed the contents of another, it's not a matter of philosophical musings over what each individual considers content. Content is not a subjective measure, it's a finite, countable set.

I just mean the person you’re arguing with and you are debating over the meaning of content. You’ll never see eye to eye on this because you’re calling different things content. You say “they added X, Y, & Z” he replies “yeah but those aren’t content because….”

You’ll never come to an agreement there so it isn’t worth the energy you’re spending.

I agree with you completely and you are objectively correct. But the person you’re talking to isn’t interested in the truth, they’re interested in “winning” the argument.

[Darsyek]

I just mean the person you’re arguing with and you are debating over the meaning of content. You’ll never see eye to eye on this because you’re calling different things content. You say “they added X, Y, & Z” he replies “yeah but those aren’t content because….”

You’ll never come to an agreement there so it isn’t worth the energy you’re spending.

I agree with you completely and you are objectively correct. But the person you’re talking to isn’t interested in the truth, they’re interested in “winning” the argument.

I'll take your word for it since I've only skimmed over the rest of the thread, but I know there will always be people that will look for any little thing to complain about. Whether they're just bitter and spiteful and want others to hate the things they do or just being intentionally ignorant, I've come to expect a small subset of the community to only complain regardless of the good aspects of the game.

[Lodreh]

So far I'm loving it. I don't feel like I have to be online grinding every waking second just to remain viable for a group. I feel like I can just play the game... no hoops/ lock outs/ timegating has prevented me from being able to feel progression every single time I have logged in this expansion. It may change... but for now I'm having fun.

[JustaRandomReindeer]

Thank you.

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I just mean the person you’re arguing with and you are debating over the meaning of content. You’ll never see eye to eye on this because you’re calling different things content. You say “they added X, Y, & Z” he replies “yeah but those aren’t content because….”

You’ll never come to an agreement there so it isn’t worth the energy you’re spending.

I agree with you completely and you are objectively correct. But the person you’re talking to isn’t interested in the truth, they’re interested in “winning” the argument.

I'm sorry, what do you mean I am not interested in the truth? What truth is that? It is objectively true that Shadowlands had more content than Dragonflight and I listed all the different content that we had in Shadowlands, that we don't have in Dragonflight. You can't list things like reps and picking herbs being more interesting now than they were in Shadowlands as evidence that Dragonflight has more content. We had those things in Shadowlands, they were just shittier. That's not more content. You can't list daily and weekly quests. We had those in Shadowlands too, in addition to callings. Covenants and Torghast alone provided more content at max level than all the different features Dragonflight has.

[Puri]

How many hours of playtime should a mmo expansion launch with? Sounds like you managed about 30-40 hours or more before you ran out of stuff to do and that's before M+ or raids are released...Most single player games offer 50ish hours of playtime, don't they? Sounds like you might just be causing your own problem?

I just looked it up, I have 21 hours at max level gametime now. That's roughly 7h per day since saturday. Doesn't strike me as particularily high for the first expansion weekend, especially in the first expansion week where many people even take free days (which I didn't).

And even if I did "overdo" it, is that really MY problem when you run out of things to do in a game? Would it have been really such a burden to the players that complained about not being able to deal with all the "mandatory duties" when the world quests would reset daily? When we had some larger daily quest (aka emissaries or callings) that made logging in and play daily somewhat rewarding?

Where do you draw the line? For me, currently the line is drawn way too early.