[Spoilers] This Cinematic is real?

[Grazrug]

It's a Horde event first and foremost, and Talanji needs their support. It would look worse to not attend.

Jaina and Genn didn't show up either. I don't see why Talanji couldn't have just said no.

[Cheezits]

Talanji really only needs the Horde if she wants to go after the people that ultimately paved the way for her father's demise and nearly sacking her city... but that's just not going to happen.

Shadows Rising says otherwise, they couldn't repel the rebels without Horde support. And Zandalar got crippled by BFA, they probably aren't going to recover in just a few years to the point they just blow the Horde off.

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Jaina and Genn didn't show up either. I don't see why Talanji couldn't have just said no.

Because it's a Horde event. She would be disrespecting her allies if she didn't show and respect the armistice. They don't really care if the Kaldorei/Genn don't appear.

[prwraith]

eh welcome to the horde life, alliance.

[mickybrighteyes]

Exporing Azeroth: Kalimdor disputes your assertions. But yes, the Horde lost the Fourth War in every fundamental sense, since they backed the insane Sylvanas and she led them headlong into failure.

I'd argue it's more that the horde folded on itself and tossed any plans for actually keeping up the fight out the window for stupid plot reasons. We were never party to the actual reasons for Sylvanas' insanity till we were full body in the deep end of the Maw and looking at Wish.com Thanos and the rejected and never explained "infinty runes" getting a speech about "I will never serve"

The war effort was pretty split until Baine became the heart of the hrode we had to rally around and Saurfang came with the rebel/alliance army

[Cheezits]

Bias and partisanship is a matter of degree, too; and some of those degrees are a lot more extreme than others.
Exporing Azeroth: Kalimdor disputes your assertions. But yes, the Horde lost the Fourth War in every fundamental sense, since they backed the insane Sylvanas and she led them headlong into failure. They are indeed in a weaker position now than they were, although their position is definitely better than when they were in internment and essentially slaves to the Alliance's charity.

I think it's fascinating that the Horde now has an incredibly powerful trio of magical kingdoms: the Blood Elves, Nightborne and the Zandalari. In terms of actual soldiers and military technology the Alliance may have more, but in regards to magic they are actually behind the Horde (which I don't think anyone would've predicted early on in WoW's history).

The Orcs/Tauren/Trolls have a shaman leaning but I wouldn't say any of them are a "magical kingdom".

[mickybrighteyes]

Shadows Rising says otherwise, they couldn't repel the rebels without Horde support. And Zandalar got crippled by BFA, they probably aren't going to recover in just a few years to the point they just blow the Horde off.

Yeah, zandalar got crippled by the alliance... largely due to the horde presence... now after the fact because of how the alliance rolled in because they thought they already WERE allied together.

The lore is basically pulling another "unprovoked war" with circular logic to try and argue something is needed.

[geco]

To which I reiterate the same question as before: how? With what? By what means? When you can begin to answer those questions then you can begin to outline a means by which the Kaldorei can be refolded into the Alliance.

I already told.
Beds, clothes, sheets, food.

Remember that the capital burned down with everything inside.

[Grazrug]

Shadows Rising says otherwise, they couldn't repel the rebels without Horde support. And Zandalar got crippled by BFA, they probably aren't going to recover in just a few years to the point they just blow the Horde off.

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Because it's a Horde event. She would be disrespecting her allies if she didn't show and respect the armistice. They don't really care if the Kaldorei/Genn don't appear.

So my point stands right. The council forced her to accept the treaty despite her people wanting revenge for Rastakhan. I rest my case.

[Cheezits]

Yeah, zandalar got crippled by the alliance... largely due to the horde presence... now after the fact because of how the alliance rolled in because they thought they already WERE allied together.

The lore is basically pulling another "unprovoked war" with circular logic to try and argue something is needed.

The whole point of the Horde presence in Shadows Rising was they were trying to prove they were worth allying with following the failure to defend Dazar'alor. But lorewise it seems to have solidified their alliance.

[Grazrug]

Realistically the international politics story is buggered to hell and back. The factions and their support doesn't really matter except in going after/against either one. The zandalari story is also buggered because people don't even bother looking at the political intrigue beyond "well Zul was zandalari and we had to fight trolls in the past because of Zul".... Talanji really only needs the Horde if she wants to go after the people that ultimately paved the way for her father's demise and nearly sacking her city... but that's just not going to happen.

Good joke. Baine and Thrall have made it clear that they will never help killing Jaina since they are friends with her. The Zandalari plot will be dropped. Like every other story beat that has ever been about trolls because Blizzard only cares about them when they can be killed as raid loot fodder.

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The whole point of the Horde presence in Shadows Rising was they were trying to prove they were worth allying with following the failure to defend Dazar'alor. But lorewise it seems to have solidified their alliance.

It makes no sense. The Horde council has told Talanji many times they will start no further aggressions because they care about peace treaty alot. The people of Zandalar will never know justice because of this. Which makes the Horde council useless to Zandalar. They don't really need the Horde to survive actually. Like the kingdom is self-sufficient. The plot about the Zandalari joining is minimal and is only an excuse to have this race being palyable. Unlike Kul Tiras who was a founding member of the alliance with Jaina stepping in to build a bridge to become strong allies once more.

[Aucald]

I already told.
Beds, clothes, sheets, food.

Remember that the capital burned down with everything inside.

And I already told you - the Kaldorei do not need those things in the same way Stormwindians would if Stormwind burned down. They thrived in Kalimdor just fine for 10,000 years without a capital city, and Teldrassil is a relatively young creation. What Teldrassil became was the heart of their culture, it was an emotional ideal more than it was ever a settlement. It wasn't beds, clothes, sheets, and food that burned in Teldrassil, it was the heart of the Night Elven people (and the people themselves).

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I think it's fascinating that the Horde now has an incredibly powerful trio of magical kingdoms: the Blood Elves, Nightborne and the Zandalari. In terms of actual soldiers and military technology the Alliance may have more, but in regards to magic they are actually behind the Horde (which I don't think anyone would've predicted early on in WoW's history).

The Orcs/Tauren/Trolls have a shaman leaning but I wouldn't say any of them are a "magical kingdom".

That is true, but unfortunately, the people who have controlled the Horde since its re-inception after WC3 don't seem to put much importance on the Horde's Arcane resources in the way they probably should. In a real sense, the Horde have not kept up with the times in terms of their own kingdom - and it's pretty easy to see as they grapple with their plight following their losses in the Fourth War.

[mickybrighteyes]

The whole point of the Horde presence in Shadows Rising was they were trying to prove they were worth allying with following the failure to defend Dazar'alor. But lorewise it seems to have solidified their alliance.

Alright. Yes that IS what shadows riding shows....

You seem to be under the impression that benefiting from being defended from one internal threat is grounds to tie the nation to a faction that has done nothing but cause your nation's dmg.

I know what shadows rising set up... but simply having a lucky person set up as a guard isn't really worth much. Zandalar allying with a equally devastated horde in a fashion like the Darkspear did to Orgrimmar isn't going to be a direct help anymore than just attempting to achieve positive relations with all the various powers that be.

Hell the assassins in the novel were also spurred into action by the antics that presented themselves in BFA...

[Grazrug]

And I already told you - the Kaldorei do not need those things in the same way Stormwindians would if Stormwind burned down. They thrived in Kalimdor just fine for 10,000 years without a capital city, and Teldrassil is a relatively young creation. What Teldrassil became was the heart of their culture, it was an emotional ideal more than it was ever a settlement. It wasn't beds, clothes, sheets, and food that burned in Teldrassil, it was the heart of the Night Elven people (and the people themselves).

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That is true, but unfortunately, the people who have controlled the Horde since its re-inception after WC3 don't seem to put much importance on the Horde's Arcane resources in the way they probably should. In a real sense, the Horde have not kept up with the times in terms of their own kingdom - and it's pretty easy to see as they grapple with their plight following their losses in the Fourth War.

I was under the assumption that Nighthaven in Moonglade was their kind of capital back in Warcraft 3 because it was the main gathering place for the druids.

[Aucald]

I'd argue it's more that the horde folded on itself and tossed any plans for actually keeping up the fight out the window for stupid plot reasons. We were never party to the actual reasons for Sylvanas' insanity till we were full body in the deep end of the Maw and looking at Wish.com Thanos and the rejected and never explained "infinty runes" getting a speech about "I will never serve"

The war effort was pretty split until Baine became the heart of the hrode we had to rally around and Saurfang came with the rebel/alliance army

Well, this argument is more Watsonian than Doylist, so I'm trying not to mix my metaphors and ring in "bad writing" for a more in-universe type of argument. Sylvanas prior to her reveal as the Jailer's tool was basically going a Garrosh 2.0 route, which the bulk of the Horde should've easily recognized and not wished to be a party to - but that plot hook obviously never materialized, with a nascent Horde rebellion being a minimal effort right up to Saurfang taking the fight to the doors of Orgrimmar. It took Sylvanas hamfistedly outing herself to make the Horde see she was a bad leader all along, which doesn't really say much for the Horde as a whole.

[Grazrug]

And I already told you - the Kaldorei do not need those things in the same way Stormwindians would if Stormwind burned down. They thrived in Kalimdor just fine for 10,000 years without a capital city, and Teldrassil is a relatively young creation. What Teldrassil became was the heart of their culture, it was an emotional ideal more than it was ever a settlement. It wasn't beds, clothes, sheets, and food that burned in Teldrassil, it was the heart of the Night Elven people (and the people themselves).

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That is true, but unfortunately, the people who have controlled the Horde since its re-inception after WC3 don't seem to put much importance on the Horde's Arcane resources in the way they probably should. In a real sense, the Horde have not kept up with the times in terms of their own kingdom - and it's pretty easy to see as they grapple with their plight following their losses in the Fourth War.

Let's be honest. It will always be the humans who are best at magic because of "reasons". All notable mages are human. See Khadgar and Jaina. And Dalaran.

[Aucald]

I was under the assumption that Nighthaven in Moonglade was their kind of capital back in Warcraft 3 because it was the main gathering place for the druids.

Nighthaven is tiny compared to Teldrassil, and there's no way it could sustain a similar population. Prior to Teldrassil the Night Elves lived in a decentralized fashion across Hyjal, Darkshore, and Ashenvale - you can see a few of their hamlet-like settlements in Hyjal itself. But mostly they lived in nature, almost nomadic in their way, forever vigilant for signs of the Legion threatening Azeroth again. Not to mention that an appreciable portion of the populace was asleep in the various Druidic barrows dotted across the land.

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Let's be honest. It will always be the humans who are best at magic because of "reasons". All notable mages are human. See Khadgar and Jaina. And Dalaran.

I'd disagree. Dalaran was made as an answer to Silvermoon, at the time in cooperation with Silvermoon, who taught the humans all they know about the Arcane. Now the Horde has three major centers of Arcane learning - Silvermoon itself, Suramar City which is the home of the ancient elven Highborne, and the considerable Arcane knowledge of Zandalar who were the first Mages before even the elves took up magic. The Horde at is stands now has a *lot* of magical resources at its disposal.

[mickybrighteyes]

Well, this argument is more Watsonian than Doylist, so I'm trying not to mix my metaphors and ring in "bad writing" for a more in-universe type of argument. Sylvanas prior to her reveal as the Jailer's tool was basically going a Garrosh 2.0 route, which the bulk of the Horde should've easily recognized and not wished to be a party to - but that plot hook obviously never materialized, with a nascent Horde rebellion being a minimal effort right up to Saurfang taking the fight to the doors of Orgrimmar. It took Sylvanas hamfistedly outing herself to make the Horde see she was a bad leader all along, which doesn't really say much for the Horde as a whole.

The problem is they never materialized the "garrosh 2.0" bit that should have been the spur for betrayal. They drummed up Baine breaking at what really was tehmatically the wrong moment... Saurfang set up with repeatedly abandoning his post... and a very apparent faction bias in general at almost every chance they could showcase to include a sidebar where someone runs off with doomsday weapon tier plans and it's immediately "lets run to the alliance for the good of all" effectively.

The writing had to bend over backwards and smack everyone on the head that the horde was wrong and define betrayal so poorly that our act of rebellion was invading secure areas and killing people in their quarters. Like really we had a "she betrayed the horde... now we're going to break into these sailors quarters and murder them because rebellion.... IF this quest was set up AFTER tehy had established the loyalists overtly (not the covert play it secret cause of Saurfang version) things might be taken differently... but this was the first time we involved random rank and file in what was more overt combat related to this schism.

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Let's be honest. It will always be the humans who are best at magic because of "reasons". All notable mages are human. See Khadgar and Jaina. And Dalaran.

and those mages were trained either by elves or in places established by elves to train mages...

[Aucald]

The problem is they never materialized the "garrosh 2.0" bit that should have been the spur for betrayal. They drummed up Baine breaking at what really was tehmatically the wrong moment... Saurfang set up with repeatedly abandoning his post... and a very apparent faction bias in general at almost every chance they could showcase to include a sidebar where someone runs off with doomsday weapon tier plans and it's immediately "lets run to the alliance for the good of all" effectively.

The writing had to bend over backwards and smack everyone on the head that the horde was wrong and define betrayal so poorly that our act of rebellion was invading secure areas and killing people in their quarters. Like really we had a "she betrayed the horde... now we're going to break into these sailors quarters and murder them because rebellion.... IF this quest was set up AFTER tehy had established the loyalists overtly (not the covert play it secret cause of Saurfang version) things might be taken differently... but this was the first time we involved random rank and file in what was more overt combat related to this schism.

Mostly agreed, but neither here nor there in terms of this thread's context. I actually covered an alternative proposition for BfA that I think worked better in another ongoing thread, though. Basically concerned with the razing of Teldrassil having been a tragic accident caused by the fog of war before it was revealed that Sylvanas was actually behind it and giving a clearer reason both for the Horde to rebel and for her to do a heel-face turn and exit the Horde as its leader.

[Grazrug]

Nighthaven is tiny compared to Teldrassil, and there's no way it could sustain a similar population. Prior to Teldrassil the Night Elves lived in a decentralized fashion across Hyjal, Darkshore, and Ashenvale - you can see a few of their hamlet-like settlements in Hyjal itself. But mostly they lived in nature, almost nomadic in their way, forever vigilant for signs of the Legion threatening Azeroth again. Not to mention that an appreciable portion of the populace was asleep in the various Druidic barrows dotted across the land.

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I'd disagree. Dalaran was made as an answer to Silvermoon, at the time in cooperation with Silvermoon, who taught the humans all they know about the Arcane. Now the Horde has three major centers of Arcane learning - Silvermoon itself, Suramar City which is the home of the ancient elven Highborne, and the considerable Arcane knowledge of Zandalar who were the first Mages before even the elves took up magic. The Horde at is stands now has a *lot* of magical resources at its disposal.

As it stands the Zandalari were second hand learners since it was the Mogu who tought them it. Also if you look at the wiki you will see that most mages with big names are human. The blood elves lost Kael'thas and the Nightborne Elisande. Who were arguabely the strongest magic users of these races. Rommath and Thalyssra hold no waters in a direct confrontation. I remember Thaly running away from Jaina in fear during the scenario to break Talanji free from prison.

[Loreth88]

To which I reiterate the same question as before: how? With what? By what means? When you can begin to answer those questions then you can begin to outline a means by which the Kaldorei can be refolded into the Alliance.

In the Alliance other races have druids to, shamans, mages, who can help the night elfs with rebuild Astranaar and other places, the kaldorei have more towns not just one capital, protect borders, cleanse the forest etc. Even little helps better then none.