Dragonflight rant - Where did the production value go ?

[Darsyek]

I don't see how that's relevant to what we were talking about but sure. As I have said before, AP grind never really mattered unless you were in the top 1%. And even tho I do think the random legendaries were frustrating, it's not much different from the random loot drops you get in raids and dungeons. Some people run raids for weeks before they get their BiS pieces. But yes, it was an issue, and they fixed it. They probably shouldn't have removed it from the game after they introduced wakening essence tho.

Legendaries in Legion are drastically different than just getting BiS from a raid. Getting BiS gear that's the same item level as what you already have is at most a 1-5% DPS boost in all but the rarest occasions (such as the Gavel of the First Arbiter from SL, which was a significant boost over other weapons even higher ilvl than it). Legion Legendaries, on the other hand, the difference between the best and worst legendary could constitute for some classes as much as a 20% DPS boost. For most it was 15%. Even the classes with the most balanced legendaries saw greater than 5% DPS boost by getting their best from their worst legendary.

How is it dishonest? I literally ran Uldir for 2 months before I got my bow from Vectis. But yes not being able to choose what legendary you get was bad. Which is why they added wakening essence.

Wakening Essence wasn't added to the game until patch 7.3.2, the patch shortly before the final raid tier opened. You are comparing a system that was flawed throughout the first 1 year and 8 months of an expansion before it finally got fixed to the first week of a brand new expansion and using it as some scapegoat to explain why Dragonflight is worse in your mind. 614 days to fix a problem people brought up as a concern from day 1. Your rose-tinted goggles are blinding you to just how bad some of the systems in Legion were for a large portion of the expansion. This is why it's relevant. You're comparing an end-of-expansion feature to week one features when not everything is even unlocked yet. You're judging the first week of Dragonflight by comparing it to Legion as it was during it's final patch cycles. The entire point of this entire thread is about the perceived lack of content at max level during the first week. Do you even remember what week one Legion was like? Considering you seem so hyper-focused on Wakening Essence, a feature that wasn't even added until the end of the expansion, I doubt it. Week one of Legion had, at max level, even fewer features than Shadowlands or Dragonflight coupled with the issues of Legendaries. That is a far more fair comparison for the topic at hand.

[Sorrowseer]

In what way ? There's A LOT of centaur quests, and tbf I main a human.

Yeah I have done every centaur quest and hunts and am just over 10, you getting to 'level 12 on the centaur renown by doing essentially just the quests' is BS.

[TheRealTetro]

Yeah I have done every centaur quest and hunts and am just over 10, you getting to 'level 12 on the centaur renown by doing essentially just the quests' is BS.

Well, playing on a human is one free extra level if we're talking 10 levels, that plus the moving village quests three times + world quests.
Doesn't change the bigger issue that my alt (who's not a human) is now 16 with the centaurs with only one iteration of the village quests and less world quests done.

[Darsyek]

Well, playing on a human is one free extra level if we're talking 10 levels, that plus the moving village quests three times + world quests.
Doesn't change the bigger issue that my alt (who's not a human) is now 16 with the centaurs with only one iteration of the village quests and less world quests done.

That's not really an issue, that's by design. I don't know why you're surprised that your alt gained more rep because your main unlocked a bonus rep buff for your alt. It's a system that, if you regularly play two or more characters, will "leapfrog" itself. Your main gets to 10, your alt gets to 16, when your alt reaches 20, your main will catch up and surpass it. Realistically, this is only an "issue" for the first few weeks until your main is renown capped anyways. You are the first person that I've seen in a log time complain about having an alt catch-up mechanic right at launch instead of 6 months down the line.

[Gaidax]

Watch a YouTube video or just wait for it to show up on the front page of this website. /shrug

Truu!

Instead of playing the game you can just see some Twitch stream as well. Excellent idea.

[TheRealTetro]

That's not really an issue, that's by design. I don't know why you're surprised that your alt gained more rep because your main unlocked a bonus rep buff for your alt. It's a system that, if you regularly play two or more characters, will "leapfrog" itself. Your main gets to 10, your alt gets to 16, when your alt reaches 20, your main will catch up and surpass it. Realistically, this is only an "issue" for the first few weeks until your main is renown capped anyways. You are the first person that I've seen in a log time complain about having an alt catch-up mechanic right at launch instead of 6 months down the line.

This is crazy talk.

A catch-up mechanic is not supposed to make your alt surpass the progress you made on your main by almost 50% in some of the renowns. In the same vein I should not be expected to play my alt until 20 to finally be able to switch back to my main because that's optimal.
I agree more or less that it "should" smooth out eventually, but this would only be true if getting to renown 20 didn't mean you basically already finished it.

Do you not see a problem when your alt can already be several weeks worth of world quests and weeklies ahead of your main ? Catch-up is supposed to work the other way around.

[Relapses]

Truu!

Instead of playing the game you can just see some Twitch stream as well. Excellent idea.

Hey man, I'm just throwing it out there since the likelihood of people grinding thousands WQs just to "experience the story" probably isn't nearly as high as you'd like to believe. (It certainly isn't as high as the compulsory players who grind out the reps to min/max professions or random epics.) I wager most people will just do quests and then when they get the requisite rep they'll be able to experience it on their own terms.

[JustaRandomReindeer]

Legendaries in Legion are drastically different than just getting BiS from a raid. Getting BiS gear that's the same item level as what you already have is at most a 1-5% DPS boost in all but the rarest occasions (such as the Gavel of the First Arbiter from SL, which was a significant boost over other weapons even higher ilvl than it). Legion Legendaries, on the other hand, the difference between the best and worst legendary could constitute for some classes as much as a 20% DPS boost. For most it was 15%. Even the classes with the most balanced legendaries saw greater than 5% DPS boost by getting their best from their worst legendary.



Wakening Essence wasn't added to the game until patch 7.3.2, the patch shortly before the final raid tier opened. You are comparing a system that was flawed throughout the first 1 year and 8 months of an expansion before it finally got fixed to the first week of a brand new expansion and using it as some scapegoat to explain why Dragonflight is worse in your mind. 614 days to fix a problem people brought up as a concern from day 1. Your rose-tinted goggles are blinding you to just how bad some of the systems in Legion were for a large portion of the expansion. This is why it's relevant. You're comparing an end-of-expansion feature to week one features when not everything is even unlocked yet. You're judging the first week of Dragonflight by comparing it to Legion as it was during it's final patch cycles. The entire point of this entire thread is about the perceived lack of content at max level during the first week. Do you even remember what week one Legion was like? Considering you seem so hyper-focused on Wakening Essence, a feature that wasn't even added until the end of the expansion, I doubt it. Week one of Legion had, at max level, even fewer features than Shadowlands or Dragonflight coupled with the issues of Legendaries. That is a far more fair comparison for the topic at hand.

Why the fuck are you replying to me without reading all my posts in this thread? You are raising issues that I have already addressed. If you are gonna argue it better be in good faith.

That's a balance problem, not an RNG problem. If the legendaries were balanced as they should have been it would have been the exact same difference as BiS pieces. The point is that outside of mythic raiding and high M+ it hardly mattered what legendary you have and wakening essence solved that problem later on. Again something they should have fixed and improved on instead of entirely removing from the game.

It doesn't fucking matter when wakening essence was added. It fixed a problem people had. That's the end product that was Legion. An expansion with almost no issues. Why they chose to move away from that is beyond me.

It doesn't matter if wakening essence is an end-of-expansion feature or not. It fixed an issue that Legion had. The issues that Dragonflight has cannot be fixed by an end-of-expansion feature or any patch features for that matter. You can't turn a instant noodles into red meat and potatoes. You can turn it into a better WoD but it will never be a Legion 2.0.

So why defend a system they had to eventually completely nullify to make people happy? Just like covenants

Expansion long grinds are awful, the one objectively good thing DF has done has get rid of them

They didn't have to nullify it is the point. It was in a good spot at the end of Legion. They decided to abandon it and give us inferior systems as replacement. This is where the whole "borrowed power" issues begin. Blizzard's philosophy of removing good features for no reason and adding inferior replacements just so they can call an expansion "new" needs to be critiqued.

You still have grinds in DF. You just don't have meaningful progression outside of ilvl and raider.io. Do let me know how you feel about it once the honeymoon period effects wear off.

[Thirtyrock]

Why the fuck are you replying to me without reading all my posts in this thread? You are raising issues that I have already addressed. If you are gonna argue it better be in good faith.



It doesn't fucking matter when wakening essence was added. It fixed a problem people had. That's the end product that was Legion. An expansion with almost no issues. Why they chose to move away from that is beyond me.

It doesn't matter if wakening essence is an end-of-expansion feature or not. It fixed an issue that Legion had. The issues that Dragonflight has cannot be fixed by an end-of-expansion feature or any patch features for that matter. You can't turn a instant noodles into red meat and potatoes. You can turn it into a better WoD but it will never be a Legion 2.0.

You are missing the point. The point is that if Legion HADN'T had things added AFTER LAUNCH it wouldn't have been as great as it was by the end. Dragonflight JUST LAUNCHED...It could still go either way.

I don't know what "issues" DF has that can't be fixed by additional content which could come in patches. But obviously there are some items from Legion that you deeply miss. OK, maybe you're not the intended audience anymore. I think it's the best launch experience I've had since MoP.

[Darsyek]

That's the end product that was Legion. An expansion with almost no issues.

This alone shows how little critical analysis you're capable of if you truly think Legion was "an expansion with almost no issues" and, quite frankly, removes much of your credibility to evaluate Dragonflight as it is when you're comparing it to an end product. Legion was a great expansion, but to say it had "almost no issues" is just factually incorrect when core fundamental systems had to have major reworks throughout the lifespan of the expansion. You claim to want to argue in good faith while doing exactly the opposite. A “Good Faith” argument is one in which both parties agree on the terms on which they engage. The topic at hand in this thread is an expansion at launch, and you are using an expansion at it's conclusion for comparison. You are the one not arguing in good faith and the fact that you don't see the hypocrisy of what you're saying speaks volumes.

[Chickat]

They stopped making those after MoP.




Cutting corners and doing the least amount of effort possible is NuBlizzard's modus operandi.




The accountants desperately trying to keep retention up.

There are 9 max level questlines and an extra 5 from covenants. Thats as much story content as Legion had. Is it as quality? Id argue no, but its more than they have had in the last 4 or 5 years at end game.

[TheRealTetro]

There are 9 max level questlines and an extra 5 from covenants. Thats as much story content as Legion had. Is it as quality? Id argue no, but its more than they have had in the last 4 or 5 years at end game.

The nine max level questlines include the five you get from renown. There is currently less max level story content in Dragonflight than in a single covenant campaign in Shadowlands.

(Which was was one of the points of this thead)

[JustaRandomReindeer]

This alone shows how little critical analysis you're capable of if you truly think Legion was "an expansion with almost no issues" and, quite frankly, removes much of your credibility to evaluate Dragonflight as it is when you're comparing it to an end product. Legion was a great expansion, but to say it had "almost no issues" is just factually incorrect when core fundamental systems had to have major reworks throughout the lifespan of the expansion. You claim to want to argue in good faith while doing exactly the opposite. A “Good Faith” argument is one in which both parties agree on the terms on which they engage. The topic at hand in this thread is an expansion at launch, and you are using an expansion at it's conclusion for comparison. You are the one not arguing in good faith and the fact that you don't see the hypocrisy of what you're saying speaks volumes.

First of all the "many" issues Legion had were no issues for the majority of the playerbase at all. As I have said before, many times in this thread, Legendaries and AP did not really affect the majority of the playerbase's ability to complete content. But the point is all of the issues were fixed in the end so the 1% would be as happy as the 99% so why then did Blizzard decide to move away from all the good work they did in Legion? Why replace artifacts with the necklace and covenants? Why get rid of Legendaries? They made "borrowed power" what it is only to remove it in the end and go back to WoD 2.0 and now people are praising them for it.

Dragonflight at launch is barebones. It added nothing to the game. It's a "going back to our roots" expansion where the roots are rotted and every expansion since Cata has proved it. Your only sense of progression now are ilvl and raider.io and these things are going to prevent you from doing high end content just as much as legendaries and AP grind did. And there is no fixing this issue.

[Darsyek]

First of all the "many" issues Legion had were no issues for the majority of the playerbase at all. As I have said before, many times in this thread, Legendaries and AP did not really affect the majority of the playerbase's ability to complete content. But the point is all of the issues were fixed in the end so the 1% would be as happy as the 99% so why then did Blizzard decide to move away from all the good work they did in Legion? Why replace artifacts with the necklace and covenants? Why get rid of Legendaries? They made "borrowed power" what it is only to remove it in the end and go back to WoD 2.0 and now people are praising them for it.

And many of the "issues" of Dragonflight also aren't an issue for the majority of the playerbase either. To be clear, I'm not trying to say that Blizzard made the right call by removing features at the end of Legion (and BfA and SL) since that's been a major point of complaints each time, but that is largely irrelevant because those issues in Legion were solved well after launch and this thread is about launch content.

Dragonflight at launch is barebones. It added nothing to the game. It's a "going back to our roots" expansion where the roots are rotted and every expansion since Cata has proved it. Your only sense of progression now are ilvl and raider.io and these things are going to prevent you from doing high end content just as much as legendaries and AP grind did. And there is no fixing this issue.

Legion at launch was also incredibly barebones, with even less content than both Shadowlands and Dragonflight. The first week of end-game content in Legion was Dungeons, PVP, World Quests, the first week of Suramar quests, and grinding out to either get AP or a Legendary if you cared to do so. Compared to the first week of either BfA, SL or DF, there was hardly any meaningful end-game content. BfA had all the same, minus legendaries and swapping the Suramar quests for the campaigns. SL had all the same launch end-game content plus some because instead of one week of one story, you got one week of four stories. The only features DF doesn't have in launch week that both Legion and SL had was an AP grind and farming to get a Legendary, and those are both things that a sizable portion of the community have been asking for a break from after 6+ years of various AP grinds. But DF also adds other forms of end-game content into the mix as well, even if many of the features are relatively small and account wide, such as the world events and reputation features. Arguing that somehow Legion at launch was less barebones than an expansion that has nearly all the same features plus additional ones is just disingenuous. You can argue that you don't enjoy the content because that's entirely subjective, but to argue that the content isn't there is just being intentionally ignorant.

[TheRealTetro]

You can argue that you don't enjoy the content because that's entirely subjective, but to argue that the content isn't there is just being intentionally ignorant.

If I can try to get this thread back on track, the point I was trying to make was that whether or not the content was gated, in Legion, BfA or Shadowlands, it at least existed. You could check out Nighthold in the adventure journal of Legion in day one. The point is not that Suramar was unlocked week after week, it's that Suramar, or the war campaign (and there are two of them), or the covenant campaigns (and covenant features you could unlock afterwards) existed.

The point is that gated or not, those expansions had A LOT more content in their release patch that DF does.

If you could have grinded to get all of your covenant related stuff from day one in Shadowlands, the campaign, the special feature, it was still more stuff, more assets, more features, more questlines, more voicelines, than in Dragonflight. And that's for a single covenant, which we had four of.

[Hobbidaggy]

Again, you'll see this different when you've done all the "unique" tasks and are forced to grind renown. This happens very, very quickly after getting to max level.

- - - Updated - - -



When you've done all the "unique" content (as I said above), there is almost nothing left to do due to the shortage of world quests and the massive grinding factor for renown. Has nothing to do with "want".

- - - Updated - - -



My point is that Shadowlands shouldn't be a bar for WoW at all. This being as "bad" as Shadowlands is a terrible outcome for an expansion that wanted to be better.

Then how are people finding things to do? Sounds to me like you levelled as fast as possible and didn’t take your time when the release schedule was NEVER hidden…..they gave specific dates for content releases.

You don’t have to be max everything you can take your time and enjoy the game and the zones stories. Go focus a reputation and level it up or go and max out your professions and knowledge for them and gather the mats or level an alt or a Drakthyr? Like there is so much to do still but you’re being very narrow minded and don’t want to do it.

If you don’t want to play the game anymore it’s also ok. You could also just go and help guild members or farm rares or go and get the old transmog while you wait.

People need to stop speeding through content once it is released and then cry like a petulant child once the “finish it all” and have to wait for the next lot of content to be released…..which again means more crying like a petulant child once the repeat the same process again and again

[Darsyek]

If I can try to get this thread back on track, the point I was trying to make was that whether or not the content was gated, in Legion, BfA or Shadowlands, it at least existed. You could check out Nighthold in the adventure journal of Legion in day one. The point is not that Suramar was unlocked week after week, it's that Suramar, or the war campaign (and there are two of them), or the covenant campaigns (and covenant features you could unlock afterwards) existed.

The point is that gated or not, those expansions had A LOT more content in their release patch that DF does.

If you could have grinded to get all of your covenant related stuff from day one in Shadowlands, the campaign, the special feature, it was still more stuff, more assets, more features, more questlines, more voicelines, than in Dragonflight. And that's for a single covenant, which we had four of.

In an interview with Ion Hazzikostas with Raider.io he states, and I quote, "The community is really good at turning over stones and examining every nook and cranny of the stuff we build. I will say that there is an unprecedented amount of encrypted narrative content in Dragonflight that no one has ever seen, and it is going to blow some minds in the weeks to come! There are multiple endgame narrative chapters and endgame campaigns that are available at level 70 that were not available on Beta. We have dozens of cutscenes that you’ll be seeing, so look forward to all of that!" Unless you have clairvoyance and can see all this supposed content and know it's quantity and quality, you're jumping the gun on declaring the launch content DoA. Only time will tell just how "unprecedented" this encrypted content will actually be, but as is oh so common the doomsayers are out in droves before the launch content is fully out. Now if it turns out, come next patch, that there was still less content then your point is fair and valid, until then it's a matter of wait and see.

[Hobbidaggy]

If I can try to get this thread back on track, the point I was trying to make was that whether or not the content was gated, in Legion, BfA or Shadowlands, it at least existed. You could check out Nighthold in the adventure journal of Legion in day one. The point is not that Suramar was unlocked week after week, it's that Suramar, or the war campaign (and there are two of them), or the covenant campaigns (and covenant features you could unlock afterwards) existed.

The point is that gated or not, those expansions had A LOT more content in their release patch that DF does.

If you could have grinded to get all of your covenant related stuff from day one in Shadowlands, the campaign, the special feature, it was still more stuff, more assets, more features, more questlines, more voicelines, than in Dragonflight. And that's for a single covenant, which we had four of.

You do know everybody complained about “all the systems” ENDLESSLY and demanded that they be removed and that the game stop being a game based on systems and systems upon systems….so they did that. They did what people asked for and guess what…..people are now complaining that they have nothing to do and they want the systems back…..so really what do you want blizzard to do?

People demand/request endlessly for the following:

Talent Tree rebuild to be trees again - endless complaints from players upon implementation

Remove systems from end game - removed and endless complaints from players

Flying from the start of an expansion - granted and endless complaints from players that “exploration is dead and you can skip so much stuff”

Faster levelling - granted and now people complain it’s too fast and people have run out of things to do at max level because raids haven’t opened yet.

Revamp professions - complaints there is too much to do now and it’s “too complex”

Give them a god damn break! You all asked for this and now you have it. Welcome to what you asked for…players don’t know what they want and seem to only complain when they get it

[TheRealTetro]

In an interview with Ion Hazzikostas with Raider.io he states, and I quote, "The community is really good at turning over stones and examining every nook and cranny of the stuff we build. I will say that there is an unprecedented amount of encrypted narrative content in Dragonflight that no one has ever seen, and it is going to blow some minds in the weeks to come! There are multiple endgame narrative chapters and endgame campaigns that are available at level 70 that were not available on Beta. We have dozens of cutscenes that you’ll be seeing, so look forward to all of that!" Unless you have clairvoyance and can see all this supposed content and know it's quantity and quality, you're jumping the gun on declaring the launch content DoA. Only time will tell just how "unprecedented" this encrypted content will actually be, but as is oh so common the doomsayers are out in droves before the launch content is fully out. Now if it turns out, come next patch, that there was still less content then your point is fair and valid, until then it's a matter of wait and see.

Well here's hoping.

Give them a god damn break! You all asked for this and now you have it. Welcome to what you asked for…players don’t know what they want and seem to only complain when they get it

Well it wasn't me who asked for that, but your point is valid

[Hobbidaggy]

Well here's hoping.



Well it wasn't me who asked for that, but your point is valid

But that’s exactly the point. Everyone complained and now people are upset and the people who complained are happy and quiet. Nobody will EVER be happy with the game and this is how it will go. So just slow down. Take your time. Level professions and farm materials and make a ton of gold. Content will be coming. The expansion is fresh and new and not everything has been unlocked which was advertised well before launch day. I’m not even 70 yet I have been running around farming and doing side quests and just exploring. There is a fun little kite achievement in waking shore which gives nothing but there is a lot of little stuff to do if you look for it. It’s just not obvious. There is a rare that takes 1 person (more with a group) about 30 minutes of catching butterflies before the rare will spawn. Inside the cave is a cool rock painting of the aspects and the titans blessing them. Go explore man. It’s a beautiful game and a lot has gone into it. It’s just not thrown in your face