Tank power in DF M+

[sponge5307]

Quite a strong opinion here about something you clearly don't do.

You tanking doesn't mean you were any good at it, trust me, comparing tbc, wotlk and cata tanks to current tanks is meaningless in the first place because it's a different game and different kits.

You clearly have no clue how tanks actually work either if you think that m0 has any reflection on how keys will run or how damage mitigation works currently.

I would love to see how DPS can't catch up to a Paladin or BDK, are they RP walking? You probably start blasting CDs as soon as tank starts pulling, not even thinking that it's just half a pull and there will be LoS to join them with one or two other packs - your fault at, nothing do with tanks "just going".

Like, no offense mate, but coming in with your ideas and talking about how to fix something where you have no competence in is cringe. "creates toxic environment for dps and healers" - lol what? I have yet to see a dps say "hey pull less, I don't like blasting" and you clearly haven't read the tooltips of mechanics if you think healers won't have anything to heal in upcoming dungeons. Maybe look it up, because you will end up dead every other pull without knowing how and blame others for it when you go into a m+

LOL you clearly haven't tank in BC WoLK or Cata. Ever tank Nexus where the caster if not CC or interupt will simply take half of your hp as a tank or one shot your clottie? Or how about the part you have to extra careful not to pull extra mob when right before the 2nd boss where you have to LoS the pull coz of the caster? Ever been to Halls of Stone where if not careful pulling an extra pack will wipe the group? Or how about Stonecore after the 2nd boss try pulling the whole room and see what happens? Ever wonder when people have to kill one pack at at time and also kill that one add who will try to run other groups?

LOL I bet you only did them during time walking when it is a cakewalk and have never actually been to these dungeons when they are relevant without the level squash. Ever wonder why so many people complain at the beginning of Cata one of the boss is nicknamed the pug breaker. Yea coz is hard not what we have here. If you haven't done them when they are release then please don't say a word coz the whole time walking is such a water down version of what they are now.

[Tech614]

LOL you clearly haven't tank in BC WoLK or Cata.

Keep mentioning the first 3 xpacs of the game as if they have any relevance to the modern game. Not to mention tanking in WoTLK is mindless as hell and impossible to fail not sure why you're hyping that up as some glory of "hard tanking" and BC and Cata where just CC so your group doesn't get owned, tank survival wasn't an issue in them either.

[Kehego]

LOL you clearly haven't tank in BC WoLK or Cata. Ever tank Nexus where the caster if not CC or interupt will simply take half of your hp as a tank or one shot your clottie? Or how about the part you have to extra careful not to pull extra mob when right before the 2nd boss where you have to LoS the pull coz of the caster? Ever been to Halls of Stone where if not careful pulling an extra pack will wipe the group? Or how about Stonecore after the 2nd boss try pulling the whole room and see what happens? Ever wonder when people have to kill one pack at at time and also kill that one add who will try to run other groups?

LOL I bet you only did them during time walking when it is a cakewalk and have never actually been to these dungeons when they are relevant without the level squash. Ever wonder why so many people complain at the beginning of Cata one of the boss is nicknamed the pug breaker. Yea coz is hard not what we have here. If you haven't done them when they are release then please don't say a word coz the whole time walking is such a water down version of what they are now.

idk man cata tanking was braindead too, if you dps the caster first they usually die first.

also avengers shield silences, death grip exists, didnt wars have gag order atp as well?

[erifwodahs]

LOL you clearly haven't tank in BC WoLK or Cata. Ever tank Nexus where the caster if not CC or interupt will simply take half of your hp as a tank or one shot your clottie? Or how about the part you have to extra careful not to pull extra mob when right before the 2nd boss where you have to LoS the pull coz of the caster? Ever been to Halls of Stone where if not careful pulling an extra pack will wipe the group? Or how about Stonecore after the 2nd boss try pulling the whole room and see what happens? Ever wonder when people have to kill one pack at at time and also kill that one add who will try to run other groups?

LOL I bet you only did them during time walking when it is a cakewalk and have never actually been to these dungeons when they are relevant without the level squash. Ever wonder why so many people complain at the beginning of Cata one of the boss is nicknamed the pug breaker. Yea coz is hard not what we have here. If you haven't done them when they are release then please don't say a word coz the whole time walking is such a water down version of what they are now.

Apparently you can't even read. I said those dungeons are irrelevant, it's old WoW, before m+. You literally have no clue haw tanks, damage mitigation and intake works. Gratz on knowing what LoS and interrupt is. Also I play Wrath - it's a joke.

[Tech614]

The average tank on classic that has full cleared all content right now couldn't even handle tanking a +10. The quality of player in classic is so bad but you can still succeed which shows why comparing it to the modern game is such a bad take.

Man that BC and WotLK tanking you know the days of "stand here and hold aggro" being your only jobs. Tuffffff gameplay right there.

[Simulacrum]

LOL you clearly haven't tank in BC WoLK or Cata. Ever tank Nexus where the caster if not CC or interupt will simply take half of your hp as a tank or one shot your clottie? Or how about the part you have to extra careful not to pull extra mob when right before the 2nd boss where you have to LoS the pull coz of the caster? Ever been to Halls of Stone where if not careful pulling an extra pack will wipe the group? Or how about Stonecore after the 2nd boss try pulling the whole room and see what happens? Ever wonder when people have to kill one pack at at time and also kill that one add who will try to run other groups?

LOL I bet you only did them during time walking when it is a cakewalk and have never actually been to these dungeons when they are relevant without the level squash. Ever wonder why so many people complain at the beginning of Cata one of the boss is nicknamed the pug breaker. Yea coz is hard not what we have here. If you haven't done them when they are release then please don't say a word coz the whole time walking is such a water down version of what they are now.

Cata was the point at which tanks started becoming what they are now. Even my warrior barely needed healing in those instances, I just made sure to land killing blows to proc victory rush. Many a healer /afked out of spite when I refused to slow down my pulls when they ran out of mana, and it didn't matter because they were spending all that mana pointlessly overhealing me. The only time you needed a healer was for bosses without adds.

Since Cata, tanks have been getting more and more powerful. In MoP, my prot paladin could, on launch, run into a whole room, pull everything with bubble, run around a corner, and then stand there tanking an entire room without needing any healing as long as he didn't drop from 100% to 0% between the cooldown of his hotr, because of how seal of light, or whatever it was called, worked. (And remember warrior scaling with vengeance? Dudes took no damage at all.) In Legion, my palla was a living god in those low-mid m+. Tanks have been super busted for a long time now.

[ifrah]

Obviously once you overgear the content, things got more "modern," but tanks not being any more the eternal heal sponges they were in e.g. the early TBC heroics, is bad for what reason exactly? I've done healing and tanking in those old times, and also in SL m+ to boot, and at least I see the today's system far superior. Spam healing the tank while pondering whether the numbers pan out in your favour. Yeah, where do sign up again? Oh shoot, TBC classic is over now.
Disregard all m0 and up to whatever level your gear manages to render irrelevant, it's the modern equivalent of laughing/whining how a full T3 decked player can obliterate Maraudon. Put things out of their intended context and you get wacky results. Surprising, isn't it?
Run high enough m+ keys and you will need to dish out a heal or two on tanks as well (ok, come back and quote me wrong if the big boys are running those >20s without tank heals later in the season). The difference compared to those whatever early expansions is that the overall damage isn't solely funnelled on the tank, given that the tank is doing his/her job. Tanking in the meta of today isn't only about surviving the auto attacks, or desperately trying to keep aggro on 2 mobs. Objectively better? obviously not, whatever floats your boat, but the spectrum of what every player in a decently high m+ needs to do and do not is far more diverse than it ever was in TBC/WotLK at the very least.

[tomten]

Look I play a tank in BC and in WoLK AND in Cata and also legion. And no there was not a time right at the start of an expansion that a tank can literally tank a bunch of dungeon mobs with no heels and survive. You just can't. Heck even with the decent gear you still need your heels on some of the mobs. So don't tell me people are doing triple pulls right at the start of an expansion coz it didn't happen. Tanks not dying now is a big issue. you are going to run into issue (well is already happening) tanks just keeps pulling and pulling and dps and heals don't have any chance to catch up. Yea it will be fun alright at +20 when no one learn a god damm thing about a dungeon or what to interrupt since everyone is just trying to catch to the tanks who never slow down.

Making tanks op is not the answer to get them to play. It creates toxic environment for both dps and healers since they have nothing to do but just catches up the tank. They aren't playing the game. Not to mention it creates tanks who thinks too highly of themselves and become the person that's the toxic one in the group. People don't tank in the first place is because of the responsibility it came with and the group expected them to know every route, which mob to kill, which mob to interrupt and if someone is even a bit too slow they call out for.

You solve the tank issue by making sure that toxic environment is gone when a new player wants to try tanking or when a tank make a mistake no one is leashing or harassing them. You start giving out warnings or even banning people who are just toxic in chat to people who wanted to learn to tank. You start moving some of that responsibility away from tanks to other roles. Making them way too OP isn't the answer.

Luckily tanks are not OP. Not even a little bit. Yes, talk about TBC and Wotlk like it matters. Come into this decade plz
What you're experiencing is that dps can't just afk anymore or they will die to it.
Now? They have to interrupt, they have to use defensives and they have to be aware. Big scary change, i understand it for people who's never had to take responsibility in a run.
Tanks also ARE dying regularly if they don't stop down or get heals. They're also doing the equivalent to a normal dungeon in wotlk. You want tanks to take that damage in m0? What about +5? +10? +20?

I'm not even gonna comment on your whole strawmanning for toxic environment. It's hilarious seeing how toxic literally everyone is towards tanks. The irony is not lost on me.

They have done just that, moved away responsibility from tanks and onto dps and now you and everyone else is panicking because you can't cope with it. Big deal. You'll learn to adjust.

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LOL you clearly haven't tank in BC WoLK or Cata. Ever tank Nexus where the caster if not CC or interupt will simply take half of your hp as a tank or one shot your clottie? Or how about the part you have to extra careful not to pull extra mob when right before the 2nd boss where you have to LoS the pull coz of the caster? Ever been to Halls of Stone where if not careful pulling an extra pack will wipe the group? Or how about Stonecore after the 2nd boss try pulling the whole room and see what happens? Ever wonder when people have to kill one pack at at time and also kill that one add who will try to run other groups?

LOL I bet you only did them during time walking when it is a cakewalk and have never actually been to these dungeons when they are relevant without the level squash. Ever wonder why so many people complain at the beginning of Cata one of the boss is nicknamed the pug breaker. Yea coz is hard not what we have here. If you haven't done them when they are release then please don't say a word coz the whole time walking is such a water down version of what they are now.

Yeh, you clearly wasn't a tank and if you were, you were quite bad at it.
I did quite a lot of what you say "wipes" or "is impossible".
I've chain pulled boss to boss all of your examples.

I still dont think 15 years ago matters. Could be a different game compared to today. Things change and change is scary, we get it.

[sponge5307]

Cata was the point at which tanks started becoming what they are now. Even my warrior barely needed healing in those instances, I just made sure to land killing blows to proc victory rush. Many a healer /afked out of spite when I refused to slow down my pulls when they ran out of mana, and it didn't matter because they were spending all that mana pointlessly overhealing me. The only time you needed a healer was for bosses without adds.

Since Cata, tanks have been getting more and more powerful. In MoP, my prot paladin could, on launch, run into a whole room, pull everything with bubble, run around a corner, and then stand there tanking an entire room without needing any healing as long as he didn't drop from 100% to 0% between the cooldown of his hotr, because of how seal of light, or whatever it was called, worked. (And remember warrior scaling with vengeance? Dudes took no damage at all.) In Legion, my palla was a living god in those low-mid m+. Tanks have been super busted for a long time now.

yea coz people complain dungeons was too hard. Right at the start of Cata (per nerf dungeon). After the nerf that's when we get this water down version of dungeons. All I am saying is tank should not be this OP ever even in normal dungeons at the start of an expansion. Is going to cause issue.

Yea people is going say is only normal wait till m+ start. Well m+ they start getting better gear and get even OP.

[erifwodahs]

Yea people is going say is only normal wait till m+ start. Well m+ they start getting better gear and get even OP.

Mate, level a tank and do some keys and then talk, maybe read a guide and watch few videos, you really don't know how shit works with your 15 year old knowledge. Next thing you will be talking about how HDD should be superior to SSD because "back in my day"

[jeezusisacasual]

yea coz people complain dungeons was too hard. Right at the start of Cata (per nerf dungeon). After the nerf that's when we get this water down version of dungeons. All I am saying is tank should not be this OP ever even in normal dungeons at the start of an expansion. Is going to cause issue.

Yea people is going say is only normal wait till m+ start. Well m+ they start getting better gear and get even OP.

You literally sound like the codger screaming at the clouds. The game is better when its in a faster pace instead of some slow methodical slog, look at any other popular online game and notice they are all faster paced with more twitch based actions to be considered good and i think WoW could learn a few lessons from them in regards to more twitch based interactions.

Also time spent does not make it harder it makes it dull as dishwater and boring as shit.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

From Tank streams, it seems even with downscaled ilevel (where dps and heals are often one shot due to how low their ilvl is compared to mobs), most tanks barely need healer intervention and at times even outheal the damage they take.

If this isn't a tuning issue, which i don't think it is seeing as prepatch is live by now, I'm curious about the design goals.

Its very fun to mitigate damage as tanks, but i thought the mitigation levels we had in most of Legion, BFA and SL were great. You had cds and active mitigation to feel like a king during very high damage, but you still needed some healer attention, and at times a lot of it.

The only exceptions are DKs who dominate current m+ meta by being nigh invincible and almost entirely self sustaining. I hope blizzard's solution wasn't to turn everyone into DK levels. This leaves tanks with much less risk, and leaves healers rather bored as they only get to heal the party rather than use strong single target kit.

Spells like Druid's Lifebloom and Shaman's Earth Shield, for example, become much less satisfying when there isn't a target taking big and sustained damage. It'd be a shame if that's the case, and i wonder what the community feels about it.

They empowered us to gear up past opening content rather quickly. Already I can't even get upgrades from M-0. So yeah, I can blast most stuff. Doesn't mean I'll be blasting it on +20.

[sponge5307]

You literally sound like the codger screaming at the clouds. The game is better when its in a faster pace instead of some slow methodical slog, look at any other popular online game and notice they are all faster paced with more twitch based actions to be considered good and i think WoW could learn a few lessons from them in regards to more twitch based interactions.

Also time spent does not make it harder it makes it dull as dishwater and boring as shit.

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...-13/1439702/47
Good blizzard did the right thing. We as tanks need more nerf. 10% to damage reduction only comes out to be like 5% more damage at most. That's nothing ddA better change is 20% to damage reduction, 25% to self heals or absorb shield tanks put on themselves and 25% reduce damage. Monks can be skip since they are already doing poorly.

Is not fun when tanks pulls the whole room to the boss leaving all the dps and heals behind and end up soloing the whole dungeons while the group is trying to play catch up. This is right direction so tank actually will actually wait for the group to catch up instead of being an one man army. Why do group content when you are not going to work as a group?

[Ashana Darkmoon]

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...-13/1439702/47
Good blizzard did the right thing. We as tanks need more nerf. 10% to damage reduction only comes out to be like 5% more damage at most. That's nothing ddA better change is 20% to damage reduction, 25% to self heals or absorb shield tanks put on themselves and 25% reduce damage. Monks can be skip since they are already doing poorly.

Is not fun when tanks pulls the whole room to the boss leaving all the dps and heals behind and end up soloing the whole dungeons while the group is trying to play catch up. This is right direction so tank actually will actually wait for the group to catch up instead of being an one man army. Why do group content when you are not going to work as a group?

Why don't you wait for the first day of mythic plus where it's fortified raging lol

[AlmightyGerkin]

Since i do not want to conform to a Meta pick i am going to raid as a Windwalker and pug my own keys as a Brewmaster with the opening mythic dungeons have been very solid and fun honestly.

This is purely my opinion but I find the whole meta pick absolute bullshit and sets up for groups segregating and alienating other classes just cause they're not in the S tier.

[jeezusisacasual]

This is purely my opinion but I find the whole meta pick absolute bullshit and sets up for groups segregating and alienating other classes just cause they're not in the S tier.

I really think its kinda overblown in general but i also think there is a large enough segment that adheres to it also.

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https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...-13/1439702/47
Good blizzard did the right thing. We as tanks need more nerf. 10% to damage reduction only comes out to be like 5% more damage at most. That's nothing ddA better change is 20% to damage reduction, 25% to self heals or absorb shield tanks put on themselves and 25% reduce damage. Monks can be skip since they are already doing poorly.

Is not fun when tanks pulls the whole room to the boss leaving all the dps and heals behind and end up soloing the whole dungeons while the group is trying to play catch up. This is right direction so tank actually will actually wait for the group to catch up instead of being an one man army. Why do group content when you are not going to work as a group?

So perhaps the idea is that the dps / healers need to avoid taking a bath in the fire or being better at healing / mitigating that damage. Either way 10% will barely be noticed in general and the key levels in which it will be important is likely out of the range of 99% of players.

[sponge5307]

I really think its kinda overblown in general but i also think there is a large enough segment that adheres to it also.

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So perhaps the idea is that the dps / healers need to avoid taking a bath in the fire or being better at healing / mitigating that damage. Either way 10% will barely be noticed in general and the key levels in which it will be important is likely out of the range of 99% of players.

Well with the way how most tanks are pulling most of the time is in the dps/healers fault. When your tank is already in the next room pulling some stragger adds got miss so they go after the dps/heal (usually the heal) and the tank didn't realize coz he is way too far away from everyone else.

10% is around 6% damage at most and for certain tanks they don't even notice it (warrior since they are tanking in battle stance) Druid won't notice much change since moonfire also reduce damage enemy does. Brewmaster might be the one getting hit the hardest. This tiny nerf will most likely affect only top 1% who is pushing into +20 on the first or doing world first.

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Why don't you wait for the first day of mythic plus where it's fortified raging lol

again only top 1% will be affected and only certain tanks like brewmaster. Port warrior is already tanking in battle stance atm so once they switch back to defense stance this nerf will hardly affect them. Guardian druid also won't be affect much since target affected by moonfire also does reduce damage to them. Port pally self healing got buffed a few weeks ago and BDK I think is mostly untouch? They reply on mostly their self healing anyways so more damage they take the more self heals they can do.

[Nize]

^ you keep bringing up Warriors tanking in battle stance.

Trust me when I say this, Warriors doing anything above +10 won't be doing tanking in Battle Stance. The damage going out way outscales the amount of survivability that gear brings. Based on beta damage numbers, people are in for a rude awakening and it WILL affect all levels of play, notably through the fact that most pug life dps won't be able to even get into any of these keys due to lack of healers and tanks in the pool.

[potis]

Trust me when I say this, Warriors doing anything above +10 won't be doing tanking in Battle Stance. The damage going out way outscales the amount of survivability that gear brings. Based on beta damage numbers, people are in for a rude awakening and it WILL affect all levels of play, notably through the fact that most pug life dps won't be able to even get into any of these keys due to lack of healers and tanks in the pool.

Realistically, any half worthy tank has 20 people following him on grouping up at this point of the game.

When all those tanks will be at 10-15 range, with the 0.1% being at 15-20 range, majority of baddies tanks will complain about rio for their +5s as it has been for the past 3 expansions, it doesnt matter how much survivability or not they give, there will be a wave of players ruining a certain range of keys as weeks go by as always.

People cant comprehend that Mythic raiding week 1 and 2, and +20s (insert max gear reward level per patch anyway) is where the balance is for and nothing else, its insane how even when you write it out to them, they dont get it.

[leorana]

idk man cata tanking was braindead too, if you dps the caster first they usually die first.

also avengers shield silences, death grip exists, didnt wars have gag order atp as well?

actually, I can still remember cata heroics near launch...

pre-xpac people said wotlk was too easy and asked for a challenge...well...they got more than they bargained for. cata heroics (before mythics were introduced) were overtuned which led to a large runt/cry, which in turn led to a massive nerf across the board to all dungeons.

cata heroics at launch were HARD, but once they got nerfed it was a bigger faceroll than wotlk.