Do you enjoy getting gear in pvp?

[ThatsOurEric]

You can be few ilvls behind and still stomp. Good player will always be good within reason.

That strongly depends on the class and if it's particularly OP or just "uber" at that point in time.

[Enclave]

None because it's a crappy format that only is being kept afloat because it's attached to a massive pve game.

WoW PvP is a niche content.

That is simply not true, wow's pvp used to be 50/50 with pve at some point, but blizzard neglected it more and more until all the pvp players left, wow's subscriber count is directly correlated to blizzard's neglect of pvp

[HansOlo]

I am curious, I always saw gearing up in pvp as a hurdle I need to get over so I can start playing on even ground and climb rating
But I wonder if other people feel or is there any satisfaction in getting gear?

First of all - people posts a lot BS in this thread.

To answer the question - it depends. Each expansion/season varies. Somtimes it feels quicker, other times slower.

You need to understand that the gear is the reward. Rankings are the byproduct of your performance, just like earning mounts.

Good luck.

[melzas]

That is simply not true, wow's pvp used to be 50/50 with pve at some point, but blizzard neglected it more and more until all the pvp players left, wow's subscriber count is directly correlated to blizzard's neglect of pvp

Yeah that's like your theory and statistics out of your ass. Take a look at any wow site that tracks achievements like dataforzeroth or wowhead and see how many accounts have even the most basic PvP achis compared to pve.

It's a niche and it's always has been.

[HansOlo]

Yeah that's like your theory and statistics out of your ass. Take a look at any wow site that tracks achievements like dataforzeroth or wowhead and see how many accounts have even the most basic PvP achis compared to pve.

It's a niche and it's always has been.

Except that PvP has always been the only tournament they hosted until Mythic+ recently(and with prize pool).

Good that you can pick up data selectively to conclude anything sensible, talking about pulling off(freaking Bellular minion).

[Enclave]

Yeah that's like your theory and statistics out of your ass. Take a look at any wow site that tracks achievements like dataforzeroth or wowhead and see how many accounts have even the most basic PvP achis compared to pve.

It's a niche and it's always has been.

pvp players consist of 90%+ of multiplayer market share, blizzard held big part of that market 10-15 years ago before all other games came in and stole blizzard's players
Blizzard is to blame for not being able to hold on to those players

[Myradin]

Wasn't there already an expansion with little/no pvp gear and the PVP community complained till they brought it back? Or am i misremembering? I never pvp'd much.

[Enclave]

Wasn't there already an expansion with little/no pvp gear and the PVP community complained till they brought it back? Or am i misremembering? I never pvp'd much.

There was, its called legion and its considered one of wow's best expansions, only ppl who complained were loud minority

Ppl who were happy with it had no reason to complain

[doodle90]

Wasn't there already an expansion with little/no pvp gear and the PVP community complained till they brought it back? Or am i misremembering? I never pvp'd much.

You are misremembering. The no gear wasn't the problem. Templates were. They could easily cap ilvl at xyz in pvp and just use any gear. That way people on arcane mage wouldnt be stuck iwth 5% haste the entirity of pvp. The current method is an okay solution. They could just make crafted pvp gear have ilvl424 same as conquest and honor could be 424 in pvp too. Giving everyone same ilvl when using certain pvp gear. And then just make the pve ilvl differ. They went with WoD model tho. Not having gear was never the issue tho, the lack of CHOICE in stat allocation was. I bet if they used GW2 model where you select stat allocation layouts people would be fine with it

[Kuntantee]

Gearing up in Dragonflight is fundamentally flawed due to the vast difference between PvP and PvE item levels. A fresh 70 (~330ilvl) starting to farm PvP gear is literally going to get one shot by PvP geared players (410ilvl). I am mainly a PvE player but I keep PvP on and do BGs whatnot. I constantly got removed from existence by others in PvP and was curious how was this even possible (I am half m0 geared). Turns out, as I stated, PvP shit gear is 411. Tried to farm PvP gear, get removed from existence in BGs to. Not fun, just quit. Blizzard basically killed casual PvP to cater sweaty balls. Well done.

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You can be few ilvls behind and still stomp. Good player will always be good within reason.

I am half m0, 365 ilvl. Still 50 ilvl between my gear and PvP shit gear. 50 item levels is not "within reason".

[Sciborg]

I like character progression not just skill progression in PvP, yes.

[Amariw]

Not particularly. It's fun in pve, not so much in pvp, and needlessly delays alts from a fun pastime. An easy to acquire pvp-scaled set (thats superior to the best pve gear *in pvp situations*) is a decent compromise to stimulate the pve gear climb for those who want it.

[Mister K]

Gearing up in Dragonflight is fundamentally flawed due to the vast difference between PvP and PvE item levels. A fresh 70 (~330ilvl) starting to farm PvP gear is literally going to get one shot by PvP geared players (410ilvl). I am mainly a PvE player but I keep PvP on and do BGs whatnot. I constantly got removed from existence by others in PvP and was curious how was this even possible (I am half m0 geared). Turns out, as I stated, PvP shit gear is 411. Tried to farm PvP gear, get removed from existence in BGs to. Not fun, just quit. Blizzard basically killed casual PvP to cater sweaty balls. Well done.

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I am half m0, 365 ilvl. Still 50 ilvl between my gear and PvP shit gear. 50 item levels is not "within reason".

Good PVE mythic gear has no place in PVP. The PVP mechanic is fine, specially once raids open and the gap closes. Sick and tired of PVE heroes getting BIS PVE gear to steamroll in PVP. Getting full 411 takes a day at max. Also once LFR opens and people are full set out in Mythic 0, the freshies will also get one shot by them, so there goes that logic.

[Kuntantee]

Also once LFR opens and people are full set out in Mythic 0, the freshies will also get one shot by them, so there goes that logic.

M0 drops 372. PvP scales up to 411. A fresh 70 tends to be around 330. 80 ilvl vs 40 ilvl, I will let you figure out the effects of that.

The PVP mechanic is fine, specially once raids open and the gap closes. Sick and tired of PVE heroes getting BIS PVE gear to steamroll in PVP.

The solution isn't killing casual PvP encounters, though. The whole reason why PvP blues scale to 411 is so that they can compete with PvE items. That's fundamentally a good design decision but the execution is extremely poor. What they should have done is periodically increase item level every week, starting from 363, ending at 411, increasing 15 ilvls per week.

[mbit2]

M0 drops 372. PvP scales up to 411. A fresh 70 tends to be around 330. 80 ilvl vs 40 ilvl, I will let you figure out the effects of that.


The solution isn't killing casual PvP encounters, though. The whole reason why PvP blues scale to 411 is so that they can compete with PvE items. That's fundamentally a good design decision but the execution is extremely poor. What they should have done is periodically increase item level every week, starting from 363, ending at 411, increasing 15 ilvls per week.

The current solution does not aim to make both gearing types equal for pvp. It separates them.
Its: pve gear best for pve. pvp gear best for pvp. Youre supposed to grind the content to get the best gear for it instead of gearing out in one and swapping maxed to the other.

And theres another layer to it: WQ pvp quests give gear with a pvp set bonus that however scales less than honor gear and is inactive in arena/bgs. So you have actually 3 set types. Arena/BG gear, World PvP gear and finally pve gear.

[dacoolist]

Crimsone gear is 398 in pvp and costs like nothing in retail gold (500-1000g is like air irl)

I mean 99% of my friends who play wow have full pvp ilvl (411 currently in pvp) even on their alts..

I don’t understand, if blizz scales your level to be the same like bfa etc people are angry that theirs nothing to do.. so they put pvp gear buyable back in the game and now we have people angry.. you cant please anyone

[Aleksej89]

I frankly do not enjoy gathering gear at all, its the worst part of an RPG imho.

But in PVP its 10 times worse especially if you enjoy playing as many of the classes as the game can offer.

[Palapop]

There was, its called legion and its considered one of wow's best expansions, only ppl who complained were loud minority

Ppl who were happy with it had no reason to complain

I'll NEVER understand why was Legion praised so much. It's where it all went downhill.

Artifact power
rng legendary
mandatory quest lines
butchered classes
butchered PVP (90% less people pushed for Gladiator in Legion compared to WOD (lol) )

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ABSOLUTE BEST expansion (quality wise) was MOP.

BEST pve balance.
BEST class design.
BEST pvp balance
BEST gearing system
USEFUL professions (enchanting, inscription, jewelcrafting, alchemy were flourishing)

[doodle90]

The new system is the best iteration of pvp gearing they have had. Easy to aquire ilvl in pvp, the ilvl can be upgraded for pve and no life duelists cant roflstomp everyone because of gear. The base conquest gear is 424 and it never goes up and everyone can get it.

[Kagthul]

I am curious, I always saw gearing up in pvp as a hurdle I need to get over so I can start playing on even ground and climb rating. But I wonder if other people feel or is there any satisfaction in getting gear?

Since 90%-ish of people who PvP extensively at end-game dont ever do rated PvP, this is NOT most people motivation.

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There is so much weird misinformation and just.. weird made up shit going on in this thread.

So awwwwwaaayyyyyy we go!

I enjoy getting gear. I do not enjog playing against people i can hardly beat because they have double my life despite plying the same class/spec...

Well that wont be a thing going forward (in DF).

Its weird. I think PvP should generally be completly seperate from any kind of pwer progression. On the other hand it is still an RPG so...
I think rated should be completly equal.
Unrated: Let there be hell!!!!

Rated is already a tiny fraction of people who PvP regularly, if you want to absolutely insure that rated participation craters into oblivion, remove rewards. Every single time Blizzard has moved closer to this gear-less nirvana, participation tanks.

Which lobby game offers the experience of wow arena without all the rest? been looking for years

There isn't one. (Edit: i want to be clear, im not saying there aren't games with better PvP than WoW - just that there aren't any games that play like WoW/MMOs that are lobby games that are better. If you prefer other game types, there are plenty of good games that focus on PvP).

No, pvp gear is such a stupid idea, and it's mostly been used as a supplement for easy PvE gearing,

History would prove you wrong here. You had to dedicate a TON of time to get PvP gear that was at all useable in PvE in almost every expansion. You'd have been better off just doing PvE. And in all but a few expansions, PvP gear was sub optimal for PvE because it had stats that do nothing in PvE.

and it's mostly been all but useless in PvP since every "season" it's ilvl is upgraded, but if you already
bought the gear previously, it'll mean you have to buy the same damn thing again just because of the
ilvl increase, which...isn't fun. Like at all.

Which is different from PvE.. how? You have to replace all your gear there every tier too. Why would expect one portion of the game to be totally different than the other?

The game's PvP should be about teamwork and communication in order to win the BG's goal...but in no way
shape or form, has WoW PvP ever been this.

Dunno man, ive won plenty of games where my team was out-geared if they listened to me (or another leader) and we played the map instead of the enemy players. The number of times i've won AB just because the other team of super-geared tryhards would zerg around and not hold anything while we just continually back-capped them is pretty staggering.

It's always come down to which team has the better geared players. You either stomp them or you get stomped.
Maybe once in awhile the teams are evenly balanced, but it's extremely rare.

As long as pvp gear exists and there is no scaling, PvP will always be a "who's got better gear" fest, which is
horribly unfun and mostly what keeps people away from it.

Well, there IS scaling... so... whut?

Nope, there should be no gear at all in any form of PvP.

Exactly this, PvP should be about skill and rewards should be cosmetic only.

Which is not an opinion shared by enough players to matter. Every single time Blizzard has tried to implement something like this, it has bombed and rated participation (and PvP participation in general) has absolutely cratered.

None because it's a crappy format that only is being kept afloat because it's attached to a massive pve game.

WoW PvP is a niche content.

.... lolwhut.

When it was still possible to track such things (through WoD), FAR more people completed sets of PvP gear than ever participated in end-game PvE. From pretty much the introduction of achievements through WoD (when "X conquest earned" and "X honor earned" achievements were removed because in the new Legion PvP experience gear was just gear) between 45%-48% of players completed the "Earn X Honor" reward EVERY SEASON. That number (i think it was 24k or something) was enough to buy an entire set of PvP gear.

During all that time, people with end-game PvE achievements, even from LFR, never broke 30%. For Normal and higher, it never broke 15%.

End-game PvE was a lot more niche than end-game PvP for the entire time it was possible to track such things easily.

These days, similar achievements dont exist (maybe they do in DF, im not sure) so its harder to peg participation... but the achievements that CAN be tracked STILL show PvP being a more popular end-game activity than PvE by a fair bit.

You can be few ilvls behind and still stomp. Good player will always be good within reason.

A few iLevels, yes. But 20+.. it starts to get pretty insurmountable. Remember iLevels are geometric progression.

That is simply not true, wow's pvp used to be 50/50 with pve at some point, but blizzard neglected it more and more until all the pvp players left, wow's subscriber count is directly correlated to blizzard's neglect of pvp

It was never 50/50. Because PvE never broke 50% and still hasn't. (Neither did PvP, FWIW). Quite a few people (about 20-25% historically) dont do ANY "end game" activities.. .EVER. They just.. collect mounts, collect mogs, do pet battles, etc.

All the way through the introduction of LFR, end-game PvE participation never broke 11%. Ever. Even with the inclusion of LFR, its below 40% (and didn't jump to 40% immediately; it took 3 xpacs to get that high).

WoW's numbers are down because the game is old, isnt exciting, and isnt built to attract new players who alergic to paying sub money. It doesn't have anything to do with PvE vs PvP per se - merely that the entire game got less good and people left because of it and WoW does not attract a ton of new players anymore.

Yeah that's like your theory and statistics out of your ass. Take a look at any wow site that tracks achievements like dataforzeroth or wowhead and see how many accounts have even the most basic PvP achis compared to pve.

It's a niche and it's always has been.

.. its really funny how you live in an alternate world where you look at statistics and then derive the exact OPPOSITE of what they say as your takeaway.

As i pointed out above, until the achievements were removed, it clearly showed that almost 50% of the player-base did enough end-game PvP to earn an entire set of gear. And that PvE still, to this day, hasn't broken 40% even WITH LFR added in.

pvp players consist of 90%+ of multiplayer market share,

lolno.

ALL of the most popular games by population/income are primarily PvE based. Yes, games like Diablo, et al, often have PvP modes, but that is not the focus of the game and is NOT why people are playing them (same with Path of Exile, almost all MMOs, etc).

Games that are PvP-centric (which WoW was not, despite PvP being the end-game activity with the largest percentage of players involved) make up a comparatively much smaller crowd of multiplayer gamers. Its still a significant number of people, to be sure, but its small in comparison to people who do multiplayer for co-op.

Gearing up in Dragonflight is fundamentally flawed due to the vast difference between PvP and PvE item levels. A fresh 70 (~330ilvl) starting to farm PvP gear is literally going to get one shot by PvP geared players (410ilvl). I am mainly a PvE player but I keep PvP on and do BGs whatnot. I constantly got removed from existence by others in PvP and was curious how was this even possible (I am half m0 geared). Turns out, as I stated, PvP shit gear is 411. Tried to farm PvP gear, get removed from existence in BGs to. Not fun, just quit. Blizzard basically killed casual PvP to cater sweaty balls. Well done.

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I am half m0, 365 ilvl. Still 50 ilvl between my gear and PvP shit gear. 50 item levels is not "within reason".

So, uh... there's crafted PvP gear that is like 395 IIRC in PvP. And its not even expensive.

Also, you can get a full set of honor gear without actually doing PvP through dailies and other activities, though that is a bit slow.

But seriously, just gearing in the entire crafted PvP set, youll be fine.

I mean... i stopped pvp'ing when they removed templates.
So, yes i am someone who wants a fair match, but i know that is not what the WoW community wants. They want to 1 shot as much as possible. So, i leave this toxic mode to them and pvp on games where i can have fun.

I always love these posts where someone tries to say templates were good in some way. They were a shitshow from start to finish, and Blizzard outright lied about how they worked.

Dont believe me? You can literally search this forum where we broke templates down with the math and everything. It was quite extensive.

Blizzard's whole thing with templates was "this way a fresh level capped character wont get curb stomped blah blah..."

Yeah except it didn't work that way at all.

Templates set your stats to specific stats (your % of haste, crit, etc, et al, and spellpower, stam, etc), which were often COMPLETELY sub optimal (Afflocks got absolutely SHIT on with high crit and almost no haste or mastery). These were set at the level that Blizz determined was the iLevel floor for the xpac end-game (i honestly dont recall the numbers.. i want to say it was 800 or 900 at the time?).

Then, every 10 iLevels gave you 1% more stats across the board. So if your template set your spellpower at 1000, you'd have 1010. (just made up numbers).

The problem with this was that the floor never increased. So by the time the last patch rolled around, as a new fresh max level character, you could be (just from iLevel alone) TWENTY PERCENT behind on stats.

This was WORSE than before templates, when the difference between Honor Gear and Conquest Gear was ONE tier (12 iLevels pre-Cata, 15 after) - about 9-10% stats. Crafted PvP gear would be one half tier below that (about a 13% stat difference). And Honor gear, since LK, had been trivially obtainable, often without actually PvPing at all. So, unless you were braindead, you could be 9% behind behind a fully Conquest geared toon without EVER having to get curb-stomped. (And higher, potentially, as in LK and Cata, at least, you could get current-season Conquest gear from the bosses unlocked in WG and Tol Barad, and three pieces of current-season CQ gear from WG tokens. And you could get around getting stomped by just riding a turret).

But wait, it gets bettah! (Worse)

All of this wonk with the Template was applied SEPARATELY from the Artifact! And Artifact traits were MULTIPLICATIVE with the templates. It was super common for a fresh max level toon to be 60% behind or more! I remember in the threads where we broke this down, it was quite likely for Fury warriors at end-game to have literally 2.4x the HP of a fresh max level and do almost three times the average damage because of how the artifact interplayed with gear and the template.

Templates were an unfathomably bad shit filled dumpster fire.

They made everything they were supposed to fix WORSE.

On top of that, the system obliterated PvP participation. Going by the size of the ladder (since X Conquest/season and X Honor/season cheevs were removed), PvP shrank by 90%. NINETY. FUCKING. PERCENT.

Since the only thing that mattered was iLevel and you could get max iLevel gear from PvE relatively easily (I.E. relevant rewards were removed from PvP and/or made easier from PvE), people quit doing PvP.

Grinding gear in pvp is dumb. PvP is not an RPG. It's just a gate you have to endure until you can start having fun. It's not my thing.

... kay. Its a progression-based MMORPG. It was that from literally day 1. Why would you expect it to be not that? Ever?

Particularly the bolded/underlined part there...

PvP is not a genre. Its an activity. RPGs can have PvP. RTS' can have PvP. Shooters, etc. So, yes, RPGs can absolutely be PvP.

As you say, that's not your bag...

so why did you play WoW expecting a progression based RPG to NOT be a progression-based RPG?

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The new system is the best iteration of pvp gearing they have had. Easy to aquire ilvl in pvp, the ilvl can be upgraded for pve and no life duelists cant roflstomp everyone because of gear. The base conquest gear is 424 and it never goes up and everyone can get it.

Im not 100% sure id go with "THE" best, but its awfully close.

There's an argument to be made that WoD's sytem was a little more friendly, even.

It was very similar (Conquest PvP gear scaled up in PvP to the same iLevel as the current Mythic raid gear, Honor gear was = to Heroic raid iLevel) in that it scaled, but it was even more approachable to get a starter set.

You could literally have an entire set of Honor gear without ever engaging in PvP if you didn't want to by just circling Ashran and picking up the artifact bundles. Took about 4-6 hours depending on if there was someone else you were competing with picking them up. You could do it even faster if you wanted to hang out with the raid between battles and go farm the NPCs that dropped shitloads of artifacts, but that might have meant you had to PvP a little.

But its pretty close. The current system in DF is a litle slower, but its better in that you can upgrade its PvE iLevel as you rank up, whereas in WoD it was extremely fast to get full Honor gear, but after the first Season of WoD, the PvE iLevel was pretty abysmal.

But yeah, DF's system is either the best or just barely shy of it.