Group Loot SUCKS

[Aliven]

I have killed 16 normal, 10 heroic bosses in two weeks. I literally got 1 (one) item so far. Do i need to further express my feelings about this new group loot system ?

bUt ItS tHe SaMe

[fazaim]

Problem with GroupLoot is simple:
The Biggest problem is how it feels. Simple as that, for everyone I talked to, and in my own Opinion:
- It Just feels worse to have the Loot Dangled in front of your Eyes and not Get it. In Comparison to just "Not Get Loot" with Personal loot.

On the more Objective side of things, like I said in Previous Threads:
TL/DR:
Simple Odds for Winning Loot on GroupLoot: 3-13%
Simple Odds for Winning Loot on Personal Loot: 5%-20%


Explanation:
In Personal Loot you have Statisticly a Better Chance to get Stuff. Because the Rolls are more in your Favor.
First you have a 1/5 Chance to get Loot per Boss. (Amount of Loot is Usually 1 Item per 5 Players).
If you win this 1/5 Chance, you get Loot. Might not be want you need/want, but you won the Item. Usually bosses have around 3-4 Items in their LootTable. (Lets go with 4, as its gives worse Odds).
That boils down to a: 20% Chance to Win an Item. (If you can use all 3, Yay, 20% Chance of Loot) If you need a Specific Item, its 1/4 Chance from 20%. Thats 5% So, with Personal Loot you have an Easy 5-20% of getting Loot per Boss.

On Group Loot, its not that Easy, and clear, and factors in alot more Variables. So, you can might be able get much more Favorable Odds.
Lets start with a 25people Raid, that is: 5 Items/Boss. On Average each boss has 10 Items in the LootTable.
As you can need 1-4 Items/Boss. You first get to make
5 Rolls, Each a 10% to 40% Chance to be able to Roll for an Item. (I´m currently not certain how to Calculate that into a single number, but I think the Chance stays the same, as its Possible to get Duplicate Items).

Your math seems off as there are factors you don't consider. Further down the line, for example, more people will not need on items they already have. Your 3-13% range seems to be based on every single raid member rolling, I don't get this? Thing is, more factors can be beneficial at times, like in the example of well into raid season(or class representation for that matter, and what they're equipped with). Can't be arsed doing the math, but there's for sure a wider range of chance for loot with all factors considered than with personal loot at static 20% not depending on item. So let's imagine that initially when entering a new raid difficulty your chances are a bit less, but in the end a lot greater, why not be patient about it as very few completes a tier or BiS list in the first weeks anyway. I think your point about the feeling is much more important, because that seems to be the problem for most people. I don't get it though, because seeing a person get personal loot drops he doesn't need/already has and is unwilling to trade is much worse in my opinion, and is often in PuGs.

[huth]

Your math seems off as there are factors you don't consider. Further down the line, for example, more people will not need on items they already have. Your 3-13% range seems to be based on every single raid member rolling, I don't get this?

Because that's what commonly happens in PuGs, regardless of actual need. Sure, they don't actually need the item, but they'll still roll. And since one person rolling Need even if they're just being greedy would otherwise result in everybody else getting shafted, everybody has to roll Need.

I don't get it though, because seeing a person get personal loot drops he doesn't need/already has and is unwilling to trade is much worse in my opinion, and is often in PuGs.

For most, seeing an item and not getting it is worse than not seeing it to begin with. There's also the factor that now, somebody needing on an item is a choice, not an obligation. Under PL, they might not even have wanted the item and just can't give it to you. Under Group Loot, they actively decided to roll on it. PL takes the responsibility off the player, which has fairly profound mental effects.

[Tehalbino]

The comedy and amusement from group loot has made me hope it stays even though it's a terrible system.

2piece from vault luckily and have made over half a mil just selling the items. Just need and you'll have somebody whisper you most of the time.
Some poor guy got absolutely buttmad cause I already had tier. Whined to get me kicked (have fun losing your top damage). Raid leader ended up giving in to the whiner, and a guy that wanted to buy just left the group and I traded him in town. Best part was I check group finder after and the group was dead with 4 people left.

[AlmightyGerkin]

The comedy and amusement from group loot has made me hope it stays even though it's a terrible system.

2piece from vault luckily and have made over half a mil just selling the items. Just need and you'll have somebody whisper you most of the time.
Some poor guy got absolutely buttmad cause I already had tier. Whined to get me kicked (have fun losing your top damage). Raid leader ended up giving in to the whiner, and a guy that wanted to buy just left the group and I traded him in town. Best part was I check group finder after and the group was dead with 4 people left.

The entitlement like the guy you had is annoying to no extreme. Why I am a fan of Personal Loot. Situations like this you can plan for. See a piece drop for you can avoid looting it so this drama is avoided. Group loot is not the best thing imo to bring back.

[Ielenia]

100% this. The arguments some people give here are unfathomably bad. PuG = personal loot, non-PuG = they should be able to choose what they want. it's that simple

The one problem with group loot is that it doesn't care at all about which classes and which specs you have in your raid group. Case in point, we killed Terros tonight and we had three daggers drop... and not a single rogue in the raid. So all those daggers were disenchanted.

[Dristereau]

I don't like it personally. From a Guild perspective it's generally been decent, we use RCLootcouncil and distribute it based on what is most helpful (we ask notes for tier, inspect for weapons, use audit for tracking what people want). I've not heard of any issues with how we've used it, our only thing has been to prioritise Raiders over Trials for the duration of their trial which hasn't caused any issues that I'm aware and the majority are now promoted.

From a PUG perspective I really dislike it. I'd rather have personal loot as I've seen issues with Group Loot where rolls can be won despite having a superior item. The rule from my perspective would be vote need if you can, and vote greed if you can't so just put it back to the automated version. I personally like to run Raid Finder to unlock transmogs. If I want to get this loot I would go in purposely with an Alt that it would be an upgrade for, rather than my Main.

Also the random loot is pretty dumb. On our first Broodkeeper kill the Evoker Staff dropped. Unfortunately that was the one week our two Evokers were not there and it got disenchanted. All 26 of us present were amused by that one

[LanToaster]

Your math seems off as there are factors you don't consider.

Yea, I said: There are alot more Variables.

Further down the line, for example, more people will not need on items they already have.

This is only reliable applicable in Community/Guild Groups. In PuGs you cant rely on People not needing stuff.

Your 3-13% range seems to be based on every single raid member rolling, I don't get this?

No, I Especially said: "So, you are Most likely to end up with at least 2 Others who roll on the same Items as you."

I think I was pretty clear with that: You have a 10-40% Chance to see the Actual Item Dropping you want.
10% If you only want/need 1 Item from the Boss, 40% if you need/want all of the Items the boss can drop for you. (As I said, this could be a bit better with more Items dropping).

If you just need that single Item, and you and ONE other Roll on it. Your Chance is 50% to win that roll. Its absolutely Unrealistic to expect in a Pug Raid that no one else Rolls on stuff. And with only 2 Other people Rolling, (Which again is rather unrealistic, most likely there are more) your Actual Chances are just sinking.

Thing is, more factors can be beneficial at times, like in the example of well into raid season(or class representation for that matter, and what they're equipped with).

As I said: You cant expect a PuG raid to not need Items. And Yes, I said there are some Factors that can Improve your Loot Chances, but they are very rare/unreliable.

Can't be arsed doing the math, but there's for sure a wider range of chance for loot with all factors considered than with personal loot at static 20% not depending on item.

No, its actually not. You need to have ALL the Stars align to get better Odds than with Personal Loot.
The Problem is for me here, the values I calculated in are always Present, and in a more Positive light, with only two people Needing alongside you.

So let's imagine that initially when entering a new raid difficulty your chances are a bit less, but in the end a lot greater, why not be patient about it as very few completes a tier or BiS list in the first weeks anyway.

Again, Irrelvant, the point is not about Completing BiS, or Tier. Its about the Raw Chances. The Chances I outlined are with only 2 out of 24 Possible Competitors, and you cant Expect a PuG to not need Items in a Raid.

The same goes for Personal Loot, in an even Greater extend. You cant Personally reasonable Increse the Base Chance of seeing the Items drop you want/need, with Group Loot, as the Items that drop are unrelated to the Group. With Personal loot, you grab 5 Friends who can win the Item(s) you want, and now you have 5 Rolls for the Item(s), and that wont Adversly affect the DropChances of Others in the Group.

With GroupLoot, if you do that, you wont actually Increase the Chance of the Item(s) you want dropping, and in Addition to increasing your own Odds of Winning Items, you adversly affect the Winning Chances of the Others. And this is only a Point because you bring the Argument: "Later others wont need all the Items".

I think your point about the feeling is much more important, because that seems to be the problem for most people. I don't get it though, because seeing a person get personal loot drops he doesn't need/already has and is unwilling to trade is much worse in my opinion, and is often in PuGs.

Sure, it really sucks. But the key difference is: You need to do something to feel bad. You can skip that bad feeling with just not Looking what the others who got something have. If you do that, you trade that bad feeling to an Occasional Nice: "Hey, hes sharing his loot" feeling.

[rrayy]

Yes it is. The never gave any number or anything in that regard. I think there was one interview where Ian said that there was abuse in that regard. And i am no disputing that there was SOME abuse. But we have absolutly no idea how much. And i honestly don't even think blizz does.

But it was negligable. Otherwise they would have NEVER brought that back. Considering the current safe space philosophy that is prevalent everywhere.

You play with others. Live with it. There can be assholes. And then you don't play with them anymore. Simple as that.

Blizzard has the data because they know how many tickets wre opened. THe fact that they made the switch means there was a significant amount.

Also, how do you know it was negligible? Hilarious that you say Blizzard doesn't know then claim as fact that it was negligible. They know a lot more than you do because they have the tickets to prove it.

Finally, they did not bring Master looter back. What they brought back was "Need before Greed" and a much different version of it.

[Lord Pebbleton]

That I dunno if they changed that before, I never ran LootRule Issues in that time. (Actually I cant Remember that I ever encountered ninjalooting RaidLeads)
If they did, I cant understand the entire Issue at all.

Zero loot pieces here.

Also I can roll on melee weapons as Marksmanship hunter with Marksmanship preferences on, apparently. I don't do that shit, but someone else may. Imagine losing on a weapon upgrade because a guy in the wrong spec to use it has the same chance that you have.

Again, I have never felt so frustrated by looting/rolling rules. If group loot is "virtually the same" as the old system, then please, let's go back to the old system. This feels like shit every time I engage. I ran the stupid raid four times and got no items at all, while other dudes got multiple stuff.

[Loveliest]

And you think you'd have gotten more/better items from PL, or something?

Actually, yes. Blizz stated that you get more loot for the raid with PL.

[david0925]

You did get more loot from Personal loot in terms of both raw quantity as well as potentially useful items due to ineligible gear not able to drop. I don't really see that as an argument of needing to go back to group loot for pugs though; you can just decrease the number of total drops if that were an issue.

I feel like they already got this right in Legion: default PL if <80% guild group but >80% you can do group or ML, but want to change it just for the sake of changing

[Loveliest]

Blizzard has the data because they know how many tickets wre opened. THe fact that they made the switch means there was a significant amount.

Also, how do you know it was negligible? Hilarious that you say Blizzard doesn't know then claim as fact that it was negligible. They know a lot more than you do because they have the tickets to prove it.

Finally, they did not bring Master looter back. What they brought back was "Need before Greed" and a much different version of it.

Yeah, because sheep looking at streams started yelling "bring back ML to fix raids". And this is whatever Blizz thought is a compromise. Raiding companies are interested in ML to gear up with less effort and they use the sheep to promote what they need. Which is yelling that anything grind or rng destroys the game and any small random advantage. Sheep are too sheep to realize they lose something good for them.

- - - Updated - - -

The comedy and amusement from group loot has made me hope it stays even though it's a terrible system.

2piece from vault luckily and have made over half a mil just selling the items. Just need and you'll have somebody whisper you most of the time.
Some poor guy got absolutely buttmad cause I already had tier. Whined to get me kicked (have fun losing your top damage). Raid leader ended up giving in to the whiner, and a guy that wanted to buy just left the group and I traded him in town. Best part was I check group finder after and the group was dead with 4 people left.

There is a medical term for people who enjoy other people suffering.

[huth]

You did get more loot from Personal loot in terms of both raw quantity as well as potentially useful items due to ineligible gear not able to drop. I don't really see that as an argument of needing to go back to group loot for pugs though; you can just decrease the number of total drops if that were an issue.

I feel like they already got this right in Legion: default PL if <80% guild group but >80% you can do group or ML, but want to change it just for the sake of changing

I'd mostly change it to include communities, but that's it.

[LanToaster]

Also I can roll on melee weapons as Marksmanship hunter with Marksmanship preferences on, apparently. I don't do that shit, but someone else may. Imagine losing on a weapon upgrade because a guy in the wrong spec to use it has the same chance that you have.

Melee Weapons are Survival Spec. If you roll need on OffSpec Loot, it will have you pass on it if others roll on it with their MainSpecc.

[fazaim]

Because that's what commonly happens in PuGs, regardless of actual need. Sure, they don't actually need the item, but they'll still roll. And since one person rolling Need even if they're just being greedy would otherwise result in everybody else getting shafted, everybody has to roll Need.


For most, seeing an item and not getting it is worse than not seeing it to begin with. There's also the factor that now, somebody needing on an item is a choice, not an obligation. Under PL, they might not even have wanted the item and just can't give it to you. Under Group Loot, they actively decided to roll on it. PL takes the responsibility off the player, which has fairly profound mental effects.

But it's not what commonly happens in PuGs though. Where do you get this from? I'm fresh out of puggin normal and HC right now and nothing like it has happened. And when did we ever not see it in personal loot? It was always in chat and then you inspected the person that got it and then you whispered "you need?;pPP" or w/e. It's just not different enough for that to be an argument.
It did have an effect of ownership of the loot people got though, as in many times people were unwilling to trade even though they didn't need. And I am so glad that's gone.

[Zoura]

Yeah, the fact you can roll need on offspec gear is pretty nasty.. Super hard to get a piece in LFR.

[kosajk]

Yeah, the fact you can roll need on offspec gear is pretty nasty.. Super hard to get a piece in LFR.

thats actually not entirelly true, you can roll need in case that item is for your offspec but if you check rolls you will see that if etleast 1 person will roll for mainspec you wont have roll done for you

as for differences PL guaranted 5 ppls per boss to get item from their loot tables and they were evenly distributed in LFR so you had 80-90% for item from each wing basically
in GL there are just 5 random drops without any rules to include actual raid composition and amount of users for specific item category

if you play some less popular class and you are lucky, can get with 3-4 items from wing
as shaman resto/enh with all evokers being a thing atm, i have werry low chances for anything
from my LFR experience i got literally 0 drops with GL over 6-8 wings before DF launch and 2 after DF that makes 0 loot over 8-10x ~3 bosess (22-30 boss kills)
dunno guys but its making system much worse in my perception

[Lord Pebbleton]

Melee Weapons are Survival Spec. If you roll need on OffSpec Loot, it will have you pass on it if others roll on it with their MainSpecc.

That is something at least.

[huth]

But it's not what commonly happens in PuGs though. Where do you get this from? I'm fresh out of puggin normal and HC right now and nothing like it has happened. And when did we ever not see it in personal loot? It was always in chat and then you inspected the person that got it and then you whispered "you need?;pPP" or w/e. It's just not different enough for that to be an argument.
It did have an effect of ownership of the loot people got though, as in many times people were unwilling to trade even though they didn't need. And I am so glad that's gone.

You're working off entirely your own behaviour. And people probably didn't want to trade with you because you're obnoxious.