Leaving M+ group should give you DESERTER

[Azharok]

That's just stupid, keys would never been timed if that was the case



Oh not a lot that's for sure, +5 at most. Don't know about their rio, I don't even use it myself.

So you want to win this argument by saying "not all players use damage meters" by showing me or talking to people that run 5s ?

Didn't you said that you didn't mind quitting keys, leaving the other guys just full of shame without trying to help them ? Maybe I'm mixing with someone else, my apology if that's the case.

I don't mind quitting keys, what the other people people in the key feel isn't relevant. I don't feel good or bad about it, I just ... leave and find another, like people have done in my keys, sometimes over stuff I did. I don't take it personnaly.

[lllll]

That's just stupid, keys would never been timed if that was the case

They get timed on low levels because the scaling doesn't make it impossible to do with their shit dps at that point.

Last key I did on my main the top DPS in the group was at 90k and the lowest was at 75k, the tank at 50k and we barely timed it.

Bring 3 guys doing 30-40k, if even that, dps at 395+ into that key and it definitely wouldn't be timed.

[Zardas]

So you want to win this argument by saying "not all players use damage meters" by showing me or talking to people that run 5s ?

You said that all players doing m+ used dps meters. I'm showing that its not the case, what's hard to understand about it ?

I don't mind quitting keys, what the other people people in the key feel isn't relevant. I don't feel good or bad about it, I just ... leave and find another, like people have done in my keys, sometimes over stuff I did. I don't take it personnaly.

Bro, you're asking me where you said that you didn't want people to improve, well that's right here : "what the other people people in the key feel isn't relevant.". You don't even want them to be in the right mindset to improve, therefore you don't want them to improve, it seems quit obvious, no ?

They get timed on low levels because the scaling doesn't make it impossible to do with their shit dps at that point.

Last key I did on my main the top DPS in the group was at 90k and the lowest was at 75k, the tank at 50k and we barely timed it.

Bring 3 guys doing 30-40k, if even that, dps at 395+ into that key and it definitely wouldn't be timed.

Sorry but you're just delusionnal if you think that the majority of keys are composed of one or two good players and three or four terrible one. The vast majority of them are just five regular guys.

[TbouncerT]

I haven't run into this issue that often, personally and as a person who 100% commits to my groups (even to the point, as a group, decide we cannot complete and all agree to stop). But I am in favor of having something negative tied to it.

1. I would totally be down to losing a 100 rating on said dungeon that was left on.
2. Or better yet, I think since the leader's (or whoever key it was, excluding the leaver (insert special clause here)) key gets downgraded 1 level, have the leaver's time key on said dungeon go down 1 key level.

This is a relatively easy fix to one of the choices above, the leaver could easily do another key to make up for that loss, and the key owner just has to time+2+3 it. In the end, it makes it equal, both would lose some time with a penalty (I say both as the leave does in fact lose time too, it's more they're doing the 'power play'). Outside of some extreme cases, this (in hopes) would entice people to just commit to completion or loop to the extreme cases. More often than not, the users that are against punishment tend to be the ones that would be affected by it.

[crazyman2]

If leaving gives you deserter, then I'm alt + f4ing out.
If disconnecting gives you deserter, I'm just going afk.

The problem with all of these systems is that at the end of the day, reporting players for general toxic behavior requires putting human service reps to individually look at each case and determine who's in the wrong. And Blizzard does not want to hire people for it. They want to use automated systems for reporting and only have humans look at appeals, if valid.

Edit - what needs to be done is make keys work like Diablo 3 keystone rifts, where you can just go in any level up to your highest unlocked. No downgrading keys, no punishment for inviting the wrong person.

[Azharok]

You said that all players doing m+ used dps meters. I'm showing that its not the case, what's hard to understand about it ?

Sick burn.

Bro, you're asking me where you said that you didn't want people to improve, well that's right here : "what the other people people in the key feel isn't relevant.". You don't even want them to be in the right mindset to improve, therefore you don't want them to improve, it seems quit obvious, no ?

It isn't obvious to me, like I said, I just leave and go next. They can improve in another key. I don't play in "low" keys, and when I do, I know what to expect and play accordingly, I am more patient and tolerant towards mistake because I know I can somewhat make up for them.

[Relapses]

Edit - what needs to be done is make keys work like Diablo 3 keystone rifts, where you can just go in any level up to your highest unlocked. No downgrading keys, no punishment for inviting the wrong person.

Then the only key players will ever do is SMBG lol

[Zardas]

It isn't obvious to me, like I said, I just leave and go next. They can improve in another key.

Improve how ? With people like you leaving key when they do mistakes ?

I am more patient and tolerant towards mistake

Well it sure isn't obvious if you leave keys

[Sparklelord]

I mark all my keys 'for completion' and I love that it is an option when forming a group. Almost always time them though, I just like to set the expectation early on that I intend to finish the key, over time or not.

I believe a lot of people listing groups do not use this feature, likely out of fear of getting subpar players (or at least of better ones looking to time). Everyone wants to time the key, which honestly isn't relevant for pugging unless it's your key. The loot is all the same. I take that back, rating is a thing as well which goes a long way for many reasons. But again, in those cases you can look for 'standard' or better yet 'beat timer' groups, where the expectation is much more acceptable that you're there to beat the time. Therefore much more understandable if someone wants to leave.

People that leave a 'completion' run, outside of EXTREME circumstances (toxic players, clearly not going to clear, multiple wipes to same boss, etc), those people I have less tolerance for. Still though, not really anything you can do to punish them since it's a social game and there's likely things that can be done to finish the dungeon still or keep the vibes good.

Point is, if you're not setting your keys for completion and people leave when you're not going to time, you have much less room to complain. Albeit, people will still leave 'completion' runs, it is what it is. All you can do is try to build the best comp you can (through ilvl/score/comp) and hope for the best.

[Caprias]

If you lust pull the first 2 packs in HoV on a fort week and wipe you won't make the timer anyways in higher keys, what's so bad about leaving at that point if you went in for score as an example?

[Azharok]

Improve how ? With people like you leaving key when they do mistakes ?

I'll repeat myself, dying on Mari's Beam or other frontals is UNACCEPTABLE in any key level higher than a 10. If you still eat the beam outside of RNG bullshit (which you can check for after the fact) you shouldn't be playing at a key level where 4 maning the first boss will cost you the timer.

I do not care how many people die/fails to mechanics as long as it doesn't cost the timer or at the very least completion. It seems you are under the assumption that I will drop a group on the most miniscule fails (I do not). But I will leave after the 3rd full wipe on a boss when there's barely any progress made between pulls.

If you die to avoidable damage, go back to basics, go a key level lower, practice in those. Come back when you're confortable pushing higher keys. If you are unsure of what to do, inform me at the beginning of the key. I have no issue telling others when I'm unsure of specific skips or mechanics, sometimes I get mocked sometimes I don't. I learn, I get better, I time higher keys.

[munkeyinorbit]

Can you please points me towards the study or the post where Blizzard has confirmed it ?

I don't need to. As people who have actually done higher learning know you don't need to add sources for information that is currently accepted as fact. Players do not rise to the occasion. They quit instead. Your argument challenges this. Where are your sources to studies that refute this?

[Xath]

I don't understand how there are no repercussions if someone leaves the M+ group (for various reasons) and messes up someone else's key.

In PvP if you leave nobody loses anything else but time and your spot can be replaced by someone else and you still get deserter, in M+ nothing.

Literally, nobody is trying in M+ anymore because they don't have to. If people would get a 30 minutes deserter for leaving an M+ group, people would try harder to finish a key even if it will be depleted or barely in time.

Is it just me, or?

If you wipe 3 times on the first boss the key is dead and people have no obligation to stick around and carry you.

[Tech614]

Then the only key players will ever do is SMBG lol

It's not even the easiest key anymore on tyranical weeks. Timer is still super forgiving but the first and last boss are nightmares to heal compared to the now nerfed CoS last boss which makes that dungeon free as hell.

Definitely still a joke key on fort tho.

[Barzotti]

Then the only key players will ever do is SMBG lol

Not anymore. The first boss isn't easy and you can have a nasty overlap. The last boss can become a nightmare because of the constant movement required and the damage taken party wide. And the hitbox for the safe zone after killing a wall add seems to be tighter than what you see on your screen. I've seen multiple people die while they weren't close to the wall. With the last hotfixes, I expect RLP to be easier than Shadowmoon on tyrannical. Nerzhul is one of the hardest bosses on tyrannical right now.

Fun fact: you can still get stunned by thundering after you used your ankh on Nerzhul. Learned it the hard way on my resto shaman.

[Lolites]

only reason to be against that notion is being a twat who bails M+Keys on the regular

no, understanding the consequences is reason to be against system punishing whoever leaves first, rather than person responsible for the key being bust...

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also, I would add a freeze-timer when a player leaves - provided that you could only replace to a similar or lower ilvl player (to avoid abusing and kicking higher ilvl players instead of the hand you we're originally dealt)

that would be abused to hell and back
5 EXTREMELY geared people run for it, just before last boss one leaves, freeze time, invite their friend in green and bam, he gets great rating and possibly gear...
yes, boosting is not that different, but this would allow for higher rating at the very leastm so its pretty much just open to abuse...
not to mention possibility of kicking people...

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Such bitterness, ever heard of people doing m+ just because they want to have fun ? No offense but you're starting to sound like a League of Legends player.

but if you want to have fun you dont have to go to key WELL ABOVE your skill...
if you want to run for fun but you are slow and dont have endurance, do you apply to olympics and then get mad and blame others bcs you didnt qualify? i hope not... but reading your comments i wouldnt be surprised if you do and still blame others...

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Do you have fun only when you win ?

do you have fun when you screw other people by your incompetence just so you could go above your skill? which id assume would be less fun for you too unless you are masochist...

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It's beyond ridiculous to expect that others help the people that are pulling shit dps.

i would say more its beyond ridiculous to expect help if without doing ANY WORK YOURSELF

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Improve how ? With people like you leaving key when they do mistakes ?

in keys on lvl APPROPRIATE to their skill?
if you are doing +15 or so a lot of mechanics that are instantkill are not on +5, so if you cant avoid them, go for +5 untill you learn to avoid them, untill then dont INTENTIONALY go into keys with "others will unvoluntarily carry me so i can learn, who cares ill completely fuck them over, i get what i want" attitude, bcs when people REFUSE to carry you its not them being toxic, its 1000000% YOU

[Nymrohd]

Then the only key players will ever do is SMBG lol

Perhaps the Vault should be changed as well and should count how many DIFFERENT dungeons you've run a week. So you want to get 2 slots you need to do four different dungeons and you want all slots you need to have cleared every dungeon. Rating already cares about which dungeons you have completed at what key. Do that, remove keys, let people pick their difficulty among any of those unlocked by the party lead who gets to unlock difficulties depending on their rating.

[chiddie]

If people, generally speaking, cared so much about their performance, you wouldn't run into those people at anywhere close to the frequency that we do currently.

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If I was doing that kind of DPS I wouldn't even go into m+. I'd go to the training dummies, open up wowhead or go to a class discord and read up, sim myself and then stand at the dummies for hours until I pull acceptable damage. Acceptable damage meaning pulling numbers close to the sim DPS. Then I'd try it out in heroics and then from there go to m+ if it's acceptable.

The “bad” people you see in M+ are there not because their are interested in M+ but because they are interested in the loot.

If there were other sources not implying grouping for that loot, PUG groups would be a desert.

M+ is “popular” only because it’s the smallest and to an extent fastest grouped PvE activity to improve your gear.

If you don’t want to see “bad” players in M+ Blizzard has to provide other solo sources of high level gear.

[Relapses]

Perhaps the Vault should be changed as well and should count how many DIFFERENT dungeons you've run a week. So you want to get 2 slots you need to do four different dungeons and you want all slots you need to have cleared every dungeon. Rating already cares about which dungeons you have completed at what key. Do that, remove keys, let people pick their difficulty among any of those unlocked by the party lead who gets to unlock difficulties depending on their rating.

Eh. Some dungeons are hard banned with certain affixes and you can already reroll. I don't mind the RNG nature of keys though it can get a bit demoralizing if you're trying to push your own key and RNG into the same two or three dungeons.

[potis]

Eh. Some dungeons are hard banned with certain affixes and you can already reroll. I don't mind the RNG nature of keys though it can get a bit demoralizing if you're trying to push your own key and RNG into the same two or three dungeons.

Frankly, keys is an outdated system already, some small changes would make wonders.

Its been 7 years, multiple seasons etc etc, M+ is awesome but a stale system, making it slightly easier and accessible wouldnt be bad, no reason for the key to degrade, and it should be a permanent unlock and similar things, no reason for the actual "item" mechanic.

Like this is obviously a personal problem and i get it, but i refuse to pug cause i really dont care to, i will get the achievement/mount whenever i want when the stars align and the guildies get the keys that give me score, like right now i have a 16 HOV x 3 this week cause thats all we have been getting.

If i could choose i would be trying other keys also, but nope, HoV, and its gonna be HoV today also for my 4/8 cause thats what my key got pushed to again, its just boring.

Some design changes would be welcome, i wouldnt mind have my 8/8 as a 12 as example if it meant i got to choose to push it up for score or w/e reason, and it would probably slow down all these sign ups of people completing a 12, and signing up for 15-16s and 18s.