Leaving M+ group should give you DESERTER

[Relapses]

You're making it sound more like I'm encouraging banning or suspending accounts if they leave early.

Even if we're not banning people for it, the mere existence of the debuff will cause players to become even more selective about the people they're bringing to the key. I can't tell you how many times I've waited 10+ minutes for a key role then decided, "eh, good enough" on a suboptimal applicant to just get the key going. I wouldn't do that if there were penalties to leaving and I'd imagine most other players wouldn't either.

I'm not even saying to take any action against leaving early, but they certainly could do with giving reasons to finish keys that aren't going to be timed, as we've had people in this very thread say they'd leave keys if they won't be timed just because it "looks bad" to have untimed on your record.

This is a slippery slope. If they make the rewards for completing an untimed key too good, there's a distinct possibility that people will stop caring about the timer altogether at a certain point, completely deflating the purpose of the timer in the first place.

[Jester Joe]

Even if we're not banning people for it, the mere existence of the debuff will cause players to become even more selective about the people they're bringing to the key. I can't tell you how many times I've waited 10+ minutes for a key role then decided, "eh, good enough" on a suboptimal applicant to just get the key going. I wouldn't do that if there were penalties to leaving and I'd imagine most other players wouldn't either.

If people are having issues with scrubs being in their high keys though, then they should be more selective rather than thinking the system is fine when you can just bail, no? If it gets to a point that you think that someone would fail a key on you, it probably isn't worth bringing them then.

This is a slippery slope. If they make the rewards for completing an untimed key too good, there's a distinct possibility that people will stop caring about the timer altogether at a certain point, completely deflating the purpose of the timer in the first place.

I mean, the point of the timer is just to get higher difficulty. I don't think it's bad if people stop caring so much about the timer honestly. But even then, I'm only thinking maybe like, extra valor or something simple, nothing huge. Augment runes?

[Relapses]

If people are having issues with scrubs being in their high keys though, then they should be more selective rather than thinking the system is fine when you can just bail, no? If it gets to a point that you think that someone would fail a key on you, it probably isn't worth bringing them then.

I'm not talking about super high keys. Sometimes I'm just pushing a key on an alt and often times the selection pool is pretty dire. A deserter debuff and the latent precaution which it brings with it would likely bring what is already a nearly untenable situation to its knees. I'm willing to make the argument that the number of keys such a system would save is likely far, far fewer than the number of keys which will simply never get off the ground because players are simply being extremely skeptical of one another.

I mean, the point of the timer is just to get higher difficulty. I don't think it's bad if people stop caring so much about the timer honestly. But even then, I'm only thinking maybe like, extra valor or something simple, nothing huge. Augment runes?

I mean, sure? I guess a "fail bag" wouldn't be that bad. I'd like something like, "every 3rd depleted dungeon counts for two dungeons for your weekly chest" or something like that.

[ohwell]

For the Xth time: solo shuffle is automated matchmaking. M+ isn't. See the difference?

Nope. They're both equally wasting people's time and ruining it for others. There is next to no difference as it's ridiculous both ways. You can do all the mental gymnastics you want to claim it's different, but in reality it is not.

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Even if we're not banning people for it, the mere existence of the debuff will cause players to become even more selective about the people they're bringing to the key. I can't tell you how many times I've waited 10+ minutes for a key role then decided, "eh, good enough" on a suboptimal applicant to just get the key going. I wouldn't do that if there were penalties to leaving and I'd imagine most other players wouldn't either.



This is a slippery slope. If they make the rewards for completing an untimed key too good, there's a distinct possibility that people will stop caring about the timer altogether at a certain point, completely deflating the purpose of the timer in the first place.

Slippery slope was doing so with solo shuffle bans coming soon. If they can ban for leaving that early they sure as hell can and should for m+ as both get shut down dramatically by someone leaving.

[Azharok]

Nope. They're both equally wasting people's time and ruining it for others. There is next to no difference as it's ridiculous both ways. You can do all the mental gymnastics you want to claim it's different, but in reality it is not.

Then don't engage with the system ?

M+ at it's core isn't designed to be played with randos, you can, but it's not designed that way.

[Barzotti]

Nope. They're both equally wasting people's time and ruining it for others. There is next to no difference as it's ridiculous both ways. You can do all the mental gymnastics you want to claim it's different, but in reality it is not.

Really? You don't see a difference between activites pairing you with randoms (solo shuffle, LFR, etc) and punishing leavers because you didn't choose to play with them, and activites where you choose your teammates like in M+? Are you that dense?

[Anzen]

I've watched how over the course of basically the entire thread one poster trying to give their two cents just to be basically mocked repeatedly for their skills despite no one in this thread playing with them ever, and then when said poster seemed to start to get frustrated over it, again they were just ridiculed, dismissed, and labeled a troll.

It's pretty obvious you are referring to Zardas, and I think this could be used as a fantastic example of affinity bias by us both.

This whole thread has run it's course because of a fundamental disagreement between Zardas and others (including me) - of when it is acceptable to leave a run. Some ('elitist' you may call them) players say immediately if a mistake is made, some (myself included) players say if it's clear that the run will not be timed, some players say if it's clear that the run can not be completed with current player skill and others (Zardas included) say it is not acceptable to leave a run under any circumstances without unanimous agreement (as there are opportunities to teach and have team members practice the mechanics during the run). This naturally causes controversy, because we can see that 'when is it acceptable to leave a run' is subjective.

So where see you an underdog, lone poster, desperately fighting for their view that we should all be friends and help thy neighbour, against a sea of elitist meanies and bullies - I see it as a poster that has refused to settle for anything less than their opinion being accepted as fact by all, despite being in the minority on this thread. If this was in different context (e.g. Zardas had a view on something that didn't resonate with you), I have a feeling you'd start to find it annoying also (though I expect you'll say you wouldn't). It's looking like most of his post count has been gained from this thread alone.

There has been references to player skill, and while it can be relevant to how credible someones views are (e.g. I would not be credible to give advice to women on period pain) - I appreciate that we are all coming from different angles and talking about different things, which is why there is a divide. Where Zardas may place higher value on getting loot and unlocking vault slots, Zardas is also running relatively 'low level' mythics (<10). In higher level runs (15+), players may place higher value on completing the run in time and getting a good IO score.

Where Zardas may see an untimed run as a "not a big deal" (that's their words), for a player running the dungeon solely to increase their IO, an untimed run is absolutely a big deal.

There's no logic behind though that there'd be more toxicity by encouraging people to finish keys.

This discussion has been artifically inflated by people pretending to hold views that they know aren't true. You're better than this. The use of the word 'encourage' is interesting and ties into the bias comment I made above. It isn't encouragement to tell people you'll punish them if they don't do something they don't want to. Encouragement could be giving them extra valor (as an example) if they haven't left a group first this week (not that I think any system to reduce leaving should be implemented - this whole thread is about a non-issue).

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One of the more active threads on the site... to fix a "problem" that DOESN'T need to be fixed.

How often are people, in your groups, leaving? Maybe 1 in 25 out of my PUGs, maybe.

Depends on whether you're basing it on your own experience, or the supposed experience of posters on MMOC.

If you read this thread, you might conclude it was happening in 24 out of 25 pugs.

[Nite92]

If Rio meant anything we wouldn't have this thread.

M+ score matters?
Make a group for a higher key only checking ilvl. That's surely gonna go well

[Azharok]

M+ score matters?
Make a group for a higher key only checking ilvl. That's surely gonna go well

My point was if the IO tracked more stuff than : did you do X in Y time, we'd have less 2k5 players dying to mechanics that are common sense, not that IO on its own is meaningless. I'm currently 2k2 on my main toon, which might be high for some and low for others, but the only it tells others is that I've timed a bunch of 16s and 15s... Not if I did well, if I was a good element to the party. What my avg dps is like despite not having 4p etc...

Of course ilvl on its own is meaningless, but so is IO, would you trust a 2k4 player sitting at 375 ilvl? It's a little sus to me, could be an extremely skilled player, could also be someone who got boosted or carried.

[Twdft]

Of course ilvl on its own is meaningless, but so is IO, would you trust a 2k4 player sitting at 375 ilvl? It's a little sus to me, could be an extremely skilled player, could also be someone who got boosted or carried.

You can always look at the webpage, r.io provides a lot more information than the score itself (which is identical to Blizzards score anyway).

[Azharok]

You can always look at the webpage, r.io provides a lot more information than the score itself (which is identical to Blizzards score anyway).

I was going for a tldr of it. I sometimes even look at previous seasons sometimes. But yeah I'd look up on raider.io if that scenario happened.

[crusadernero]

Then don't engage with the system ?

M+ at it's core isn't designed to be played with randos, you can, but it's not designed that way.

Of course it is. Literally everything in PvE (and pvp) is buildt upon the idea of going with others. Be it friends, guildies or random people you dont know, aka pick up groups.

Is it better going with friends/guildies and people you know? Of course. But lets be real, most players engage in pug enviorment. Always has, always will.

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Really? You don't see a difference between activites pairing you with randoms (solo shuffle, LFR, etc) and punishing leavers because you didn't choose to play with them, and activites where you choose your teammates like in M+? Are you that dense?

I dont get it. You take an active choice all the time of who you are playing with. If you join a m+ with 4 ppl you dont know, you took that choice. Even if its automated or not.

[erifwodahs]

Depends on whether you're basing it on your own experience, or the supposed experience of posters on MMOC.

If you read this thread, you might conclude it was happening in 24 out of 25 pugs.

60+ keys going this season more than half of them being 16-20, had only one leaver, not my key either so it wasn't me who selected him.

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Of course it is. Literally everything in PvE (and pvp) is buildt upon the idea of going with others. Be it friends, guildies or random people you dont know, aka pick up groups.

Exactly - PICK groups. That manual selection and you can pick and choose to your liking and also add conditions for "completion" "beat timer". Maybe one thing missing is a time frames from completion, because if I join a +20 NO completion, I might expect to be there anywhere from 40 to 60 minutes, but if it goes to 90+ minutes it's a next level shit, so when I join "weekly +20" and if I see people with low rio, no enchants or low exp in this key - I just jump out immediately.

[Barzotti]

I dont get it. You take an active choice all the time of who you are playing with. If you join a m+ with 4 ppl you dont know, you took that choice. Even if its automated or not.

You have no idea how good or bad people are through an automated system. You know nothing about them, whether they already completed the dungeon, their class, their spec... You can select the people you play with in M+ and vet them. Even in you're pugging M+, you can know beforehand what they play, their gear level, their experience with said dungeon and choose to leave the dungeon before the start of the key.

My point is that even if I have never played with randoms in M+, I already know them. It's m'y fault too if shit hits the fan because I chose to play with those random people.

[munkeyinorbit]

Should just give them a warning (show on invite screen before inviting them) then if they continue to ditch m+'s, add more warnings so you can see how many times they have ditched the m+ group

Have you even read the thread? This argument has been defeated 6 times already in this thread alone.

[crusadernero]

You have no idea how good or bad people are through an automated system. You know nothing about them, whether they already completed the dungeon, their class, their spec... You can select the people you play with in M+ and vet them. Even in you're pugging M+, you can know beforehand what they play, their gear level, their experience with said dungeon and choose to leave the dungeon before the start of the key.

My point is that even if I have never played with randoms in M+, I already know them. It's m'y fault too if shit hits the fan because I chose to play with those random people.

Of course, but in the automated features of the game the content is so piss easy anyway it doesnt matter.

Point is - you take an active choice all the time who you want to play with. If you click that queue button for LFR, you are agreeing to let the system decide your group. That was your choice. The grp might be great, it might be shit.

With m+ grps you can always create your own grp and only inv people of your choosing, but even that doesnt remove the fact that some players aint as good as you thought they would be(either because of gear or score).

But yeah, I agree that at the very least m+ runs give accountability towards each player that joins. Thats a good thing.

[lllll]

Nope. They're both equally wasting people's time and ruining it for others. There is next to no difference as it's ridiculous both ways. You can do all the mental gymnastics you want to claim it's different, but in reality it is not.

The PvP equivalent of bailing on m+ because people play bad is that you join 2v2/3v3 or RBG group and then bail on them because they play bad. You gave them a shot and then left. There's no shot that Blizzard will penalize someone for leaving a 2v2/3v3 arena or a RBG. The PvP equivalent is not matchmade content.

[Nite92]

My point was if the IO tracked more stuff than : did you do X in Y time, we'd have less 2k5 players dying to mechanics that are common sense, not that IO on its own is meaningless. I'm currently 2k2 on my main toon, which might be high for some and low for others, but the only it tells others is that I've timed a bunch of 16s and 15s... Not if I did well, if I was a good element to the party. What my avg dps is like despite not having 4p etc...

Of course ilvl on its own is meaningless, but so is IO, would you trust a 2k4 player sitting at 375 ilvl? It's a little sus to me, could be an extremely skilled player, could also be someone who got boosted or carried.

Just so that people reading this know that this is almost a complete 180 to your initial statement: "If Rio meant anything we wouldn't have this thread."

You want to have in-depth analysis served to you in simple numbers, which is just not how it works. There is not a simple way to quantify, if you are holding one stop as a backup to interupt the most important cast of a pack, or if you place the puddles on RLP last boss in a way that they get blown off during the next change winds, or that you properly bait 2nd boss RLP boulders etc etc.

R.io is a statistical tool to improve your chances of success and not a log parsing tool. If you want to check those things, be my guest and check peoples' logs.

No i fucking would not trust such a guy, but with the given info, you can quite easily make he deduction to not invite the guy, so I don't get how this helps your argument. It helps mine.

[Anzen]

The PvP equivalent of bailing on m+ because people play bad is that you join 2v2/3v3 or RBG group and then bail on them because they play bad. You gave them a shot and then left. There's no shot that Blizzard will penalize someone for leaving a 2v2/3v3 arena or a RBG. The PvP equivalent is not matchmade content.

Oh god, don't mention 2v2 or 3v3 or they'll start campaigning for forced carries in arena too...

[Azharok]

Just so that people reading this know that this is almost a complete 180 to your initial statement: "If Rio meant anything we wouldn't have this thread."

You want to have in-depth analysis served to you in simple numbers, which is just not how it works. There is not a simple way to quantify, if you are holding one stop as a backup to interupt the most important cast of a pack, or if you place the puddles on RLP last boss in a way that they get blown off during the next change winds, or that you properly bait 2nd boss RLP boulders etc etc.

R.io is a statistical tool to improve your chances of success and not a log parsing tool. If you want to check those things, be my guest and check peoples' logs.

No i fucking would not trust such a guy, but with the given info, you can quite easily make he deduction to not invite the guy, so I don't get how this helps your argument. It helps mine.

Guess I should have worded it better :

Your Mythic Score, or IO score serves no purpose other than showing to others that you have timed (or not timed) XYZ key levels accross dungeons and with you you ran them.

It does not reflect your skill level, it only shows that you managed to time SBG N+++ with Andy Mike and Charles. You don't know who did most DPS, how much healing was required, how many mistakes were made (it does track deaths which is a nice feature I suppose).

To the same extent that ilvl is pretty meaningless on it's own as well, it only gives an indication of your potential power in a given role, it's safe to assume that someone who has 400ilvl will be more powerful than someone who has 375 (we all know that this isn't a guarantee).

So when selecting for potential candidates for a key, basing your choice around io and ilvl is a very gross approximation of the quality of players you will encounter. We can all agree however that the higher the io and the ilvl goes the more likely the player knows his class/spec.

2k2 is roughly in the 4-5 percentile (I haven't checked lately), supposedly those players are better than 95% of the playerbase partaking in M+, well I've encountered a few players with that rating and similar ilvl to mine perform very poorly (you can infer what happened to those keys).

That is why I've stated that IO is pretty meaningless.