Leaving M+ group should give you DESERTER

[Alroxas]

First Q: Why would you do that though? if you were going to get a carry in, get them from the start.
Limit it to 1 drop to prevent switching back, lock it to account to stop people switching to different toons for certain bosses, only enact the system for leave and DC not for forced kick... there are a whole host of controls that could be implemented to prevent abuse.

Yes, sure in hindsight but that underscores another problem. The complexity of creating a system and then putting in all these safeguards. Or you could just run with other players where you can trust them to not be a douchebag and not (spitefully) brick your key.

Second Q: It's not my preference but people seem so hell bend on punishing people and the least offensive way I can think of to do that is to give a leader information that would allow them to see what they are inviting ahead of time.

One of the primary reasons why they are so hell bend is because they want "justice" or vengeance. But because of the anonymity of group finder, you're very unlikely to run across the exact same person twice in a row (except in extreme circumstances).

"First what impacts that %? Is it the first person that leaves/abandons a key? Or any attempt to leave a key?"
That's up for debate right? Anyone who leaves before the < first boss or < 50% of trash + 50% of bosses. Anyone who leaves before the "Abandon Key" button is pressed... change it from a button to a vote... again a whole host of things could be done.

And a whole host of issues come from various scenarios. If the group doesn't have the DPS to even kill the trash before the first boss or struggles with some mechanic why are any of the players beholden to stay? Why should Bob be punished for poor gameplay from the other party members? Is it Bob's job to teach them the errors of their ways? What if they don't want to learn from Bob? Maybe their way of playing the game is less try-hard (but also means this particular dungeon run is going to last hours).

Give a group an option to vote on abandon key for no penalty.

No penalty as in no key degradation? Yikes that's a bad one if you think about it. Hey guys we're not going to time it, let's vote to abandon and restart (since we don't lose a key level). Hey guys, we couldn't pull off that MDI level strat, let's vote to abandon and restart. Hey guys we forgot to lust/heroism on the first pull (a triple add pack), let's vote to abandon and restart. And so forth.

Well... yeah... that's exactly how percentages work. If someone does 1,000 keys and leaves 1 they don't exactly have a long sordid history of key leaving, which is surely what this is all about?
If you do 2 keys and leave 1 you have a pretty poor record and others should surely know about that before they considering inviting you.

Yes but you're missing the point I was trying to make: Until you get to 1k keys done (or some other high number), then you are "FORCED" to stay in keys because you leaving would greatly affect your record.

Additionally, without any context, a person with a 50% leave rate (did 2 keys and left 1) looks horrible but contextually that might have been a legitimate reason and because their total number of keys is low, they are less likely to be invited in future runs.

Maybe you could only show the leave % if it breaches a specific threshold, say 20%, maybe you just show the number not the %, maybe it's based on last x keys or last x weeks. Again, several ways you could do it that doesn't have a lasting impact.

Same issue as before. Percentages don't work very well because it penalizes those who don't run many keys. A rolling average over the last few days/weeks also doesn't work very well because of specific cases where players can misinterpret the data.

Take someone who is pushing ultra high keys: They may leave a ton of dungeons over a week as they try to push keys because for them it's about being able to time the key and as soon as it becomes apparent that they can't complete the timer, they bail. And that's OK for some groups and players because that's their goal and they are only looking to play with other similar minded players.

The focus should be on allowing the remaining players to complete their key in a timely fashion.

Honestly, it's an issue of the group leader not screening their candidates well enough. When goals don't align, you're going to run into problems.

- - - Updated - - -

Maybe something like they have done in PVP, lose rating every time and if you do it to many times you maybe subject to ban.

Holy smokes that's even worse! Bob wants to leave this group but doesn't want to take the penalty of losing his score. So he's going to make someone else leave first. Should he be passive aggressive about it? Or maybe he'll just play super aggressive and cause a lot of party wipes.

[Lolites]

this game design achieves 2 things:

you are right it will be 2 things, though not the 2 you think - after someone starts the vote and people will vote no he will sit down to afk or follow someone and go do whatever else, untill someone else looses patience and take the punishment, resulting in 1. MORE wasted time than someone simply leaving and 2. someone else being punished rather than person who decided to blow it...

as for why blizz dont implement it, its not lazines, its just they are not idiots, and can see big negatives and zero positives of such system...

im astonished that after 31 pages about "issue" thats barely worth mentioning people still come up with new terrible ideas how to completely screw the whole system up, while failing to solve the original "issue"... its really beyond my wildest imagination...

[Jester Joe]

Holy smokes that's even worse! Bob wants to leave this group but doesn't want to take the penalty of losing his score. So he's going to make someone else leave first. Should he be passive aggressive about it? Or maybe he'll just play super aggressive and cause a lot of party wipes.

I just have to ask, since this keeps getting mentioned as like, a counter point.

You guys realize this is fully reportable in game already right? Like, game play sabotage is a reportable offense in every Blizzard game.

[lllll]

I just have to ask, since this keeps getting mentioned as like, a counter point.

You guys realize this is fully reportable in game already right? Like, game play sabotage is a reportable offense in every Blizzard game.

How do you know he's not just clueless?

[Alroxas]

I just have to ask, since this keeps getting mentioned as like, a counter point.

You guys realize this is fully reportable in game already right? Like, game play sabotage is a reportable offense in every Blizzard game.

So then players will obfuscate the line. At what point does poor gameplay become "game play sabotage"? We're merely highlight the extremes to further emphasize what would likely happen as a result of these "punishment" systems.

Additionally, consider that most of these reporting systems by blizzard are "automated" so they aren't been really reviewed for authenticity which itself presents problems that have been exploited already.

Honestly, there has not been a better "solution" than simply playing with players whom you can trust.

[Jester Joe]

How do you know he's not just clueless?

This isn't an actual defense.

An actual clueless player wouldn't find their way into a premade group even, just to start at the bottom.

From there, it's not hard for Blizzard to track that a players behavior across keys, or even a drastic change inside a single key.

This isnt any sort of counter.

[lllll]

This isn't an actual defense.

An actual clueless player wouldn't find their way into a premade group even, just to start at the bottom.

From there, it's not hard for Blizzard to track that a players behavior across keys, or even a drastic change inside a single key.

This isnt any sort of counter.

So we just report every single low DPS players because they might be trolling, maybe they performed well in other keys?

[Jester Joe]

So then players will obfuscate the line. At what point does poor gameplay become "game play sabotage"? We're merely highlight the extremes to further emphasize what would likely happen as a result of these "punishment" systems.

Additionally, consider that most of these reporting systems by blizzard are "automated" so they aren't been really reviewed for authenticity which itself presents problems that have been exploited already.

Honestly, there has not been a better "solution" than simply playing with players whom you can trust.

This is already how the game operates though.
I'm not saying "well they should change the report system". It's straight up how it works already, and I don't see people getting banned for being bad.

If your idea is that the reports would suddenly increase as a result of change, well then i'd also point towards Overwatch having the same system and people last I checked aren't getting banned for being bad there.

So we just report every single low DPS players because they might be trolling, maybe they performed well in other keys?

Your weird attempts at logical fallacies isn't working here.

[lllll]

Your weird attempts at logical fallacies isn't working here.

It's not a logical fallacy.

I'm gonna start doing that, it's a great suggestion. Just in case they're trolling I'll report them rather than giving them the benefit of doubt that they're just bad.

[Nite92]

Guess I should have worded it better :

Your Mythic Score, or IO score serves no purpose other than showing to others that you have timed (or not timed) XYZ key levels accross dungeons and with you you ran them.

It does not reflect your skill level, it only shows that you managed to time SBG N+++ with Andy Mike and Charles. You don't know who did most DPS, how much healing was required, how many mistakes were made (it does track deaths which is a nice feature I suppose).

To the same extent that ilvl is pretty meaningless on it's own as well, it only gives an indication of your potential power in a given role, it's safe to assume that someone who has 400ilvl will be more powerful than someone who has 375 (we all know that this isn't a guarantee).

So when selecting for potential candidates for a key, basing your choice around io and ilvl is a very gross approximation of the quality of players you will encounter. We can all agree however that the higher the io and the ilvl goes the more likely the player knows his class/spec.

2k2 is roughly in the 4-5 percentile (I haven't checked lately), supposedly those players are better than 95% of the playerbase partaking in M+, well I've encountered a few players with that rating and similar ilvl to mine perform very poorly (you can infer what happened to those keys).

That is why I've stated that IO is pretty meaningless.

You equate the usefulness of ilvl and r.io when forming a group. If you'd tried this only once, you'd know that this is not the case. R.io is vastly superior.

Yes, R.io does not tell the entire story, but just because it is not perfect, does not mean it is meaningless.

You state you encoutered "a few players" that were very bad wiht similar rating/ilvl compared to you. That shows that r.io IS meaningful, because you get less useless players, no?

[Jester Joe]

It's not a logical fallacy.

I'm gonna start doing that, it's a great suggestion. Just in case they're trolling I'll report them rather than giving them the benefit of doubt that they're just bad.

Okay, and nothing will happen because that's not how the system works.

That's why I'm saying you're just presenting fallacies, because I literally just explained it to you and the response was just "Well what if I exploit it!"

[lllll]

Okay, and nothing will happen because that's not how the system works.

The system is automated. Penalties are automatically applied. All it requires is enough reports.

I'll just report people that are pulling low DPS, because they might be trolling instead of just being bad.

[Jester Joe]

The system is automated. Penalties are automatically applied. All it requires is enough reports.

I'll just report people that are pulling low DPS, because they might be trolling instead of just being bad.

You're mistaking what mass reports do in comparison to a trickle of reports over time.

Which is just the kneejerk reaction everyone's had since whatever streamer decided to ask trade chat to report them in Orgrimmar or whatever.

Yeah, what a shock, get like 50+ reports in less than a minute and there's an automated response just to quickly handle the situation.

That isn't what's going to happen here, but if it makes you feel better about your runs, I'm not here to stop you.

[lllll]

You're mistaking what mass reports do in comparison to a trickle of reports over time.

Nope.

We've had people getting their names reported when playing rated BG and getting kicked out of the game, to have to rename their characters. Why? Because the enemy team reported them. The system is entirely automated and the threshold to hit is relatively low for something that has as harsh penalties as it does when it finally triggers.

[Jester Joe]

Nope.

We've had people getting their names reported when playing rated BG and getting kicked out of the game, to have to rename their characters. Why? Because the enemy team reported them.

Again, a completely different kind of situation, and a different kind of report. I'm sure their name was completely innocent and it was undeserved though.

[lllll]

Again, a completely different kind of situation, and a different kind of report. I'm sure their name was completely innocent and it was undeserved though.

The reporting system is automated.

That's what you're not getting. It's entirely automated. I can report someone along with my friends and they'll get banned.

Some guy doing low DPS in m+? Tell my friends to log on, turn the group into a raid group so I can invite them so they can report the low DPS. Done.

The only reason I don't do that atm is because I can just leave at will if someone is bad or throwing.

[Jester Joe]

The reporting system is automated.

That's what you're not getting. It's entirely automated. I can report someone along with my friends and they'll get banned.

Some guy doing low DPS in m+? Tell my friends to log on, turn the group into a raid group so I can invite them so they can report the low DPS. Done.

You're ignoring the nuances and trying to lump it into one giant group. It's not like all reports go into the same paper shredder like you're making it sound.

And you realize you and your friends would end be being the banned ones for exploiting the system if you manage to pull it off after appeals, right? Like, c'mon. This is just being dishonest at this point.

[lllll]

And you realize you and your friends would end be being the banned ones for exploiting the system if you manage to pull it off after appeals, right? Like, c'mon. This is just being dishonest at this point.

Haven't happened so far and we've been reporting people quite a lot of times just because they mess with us. Last time was when we were farming rares in ZM, we didn't engage a rare because we were waiting for the last one of us to get there before we kill it but someone else started killing it. We all reported him and watched as he was kicked off when he hit the threshold. No ban for that or any of the other times we've reported people.

My favourite is the vault on mechagon, we warned a hunter that had pet taunt on to turn it off or we'll report him when we were trying to drag the vault. He didn't turn it off and was reported until he hit the threshold.

I would no doubt get them to do it if someone was pulling low DPS and I was forced to stay in that key or be penalized. That person will get banned for fucking with me like that.

Yes, I'd be that petty if they try to force me into carrying people that have no business being in the keys they're trying to do. Except they're actually sabotaging the key, like legit sabotaging it rather than just messing with us.

[Jester Joe]

Haven't happened so far and we've been reporting people quiet a lot of times just because they mess with us. Last time was when we were farming rares in ZM, we didn't engage a rare because we were waiting for the last one of us to get there before we kill it but someone else started killing it. We all reported him and watched as he was kicked off when he hit the threshold. No ban for that or any of the other times we've reported people.

I would no doubt get them to do it if someone was pulling low DPS and I was forced to stay in that key or be penalized. That person will get banned for fucking with me like that.

Yes, I'd be that petty if they try to force me into carrying people that have no business being in the keys they're trying to do.

Well, for anyone doubting that the kind of person OP is worried about exists...

It's clear you're not getting the point though, but I'm sure one day abusing reports will come back around. Whatever you're saying though doesn't change that the system I talked about is already in place anyway. The more you abuse it the more likely you'll end up on the receiving end anyway so you do you.

[lllll]

Well, for anyone doubting that the kind of person OP is worried about exists...

It's clear you're not getting the point though, but I'm sure one day abusing reports will come back around. Whatever you're saying though doesn't change that the system I talked about is already in place anyway. The more you abuse it the more likely you'll end up on the receiving end anyway so you do you.

It's laughable to think that "abusing reports" will do anything.