Page 1 of 2
1
2
LastLast
  1. #1

    Angry Double tap removed

    Rip mm-pvp

  2. #2
    One less button, I'll take it.
    Oh but they are turning salvo into a button, so nevermind.
    Last edited by ryan92084; 2022-12-16 at 12:41 AM.

  3. #3
    Banned Cynical Asshole's Avatar
    1+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2022
    Location
    Bucharest. Romania.
    Posts
    1,341
    Thank fuck????

    I fucking hate this ability having an extra button. In fact I fucking hate all abilities on short cds that give you extra resources (tiger fury, thistle tea, marked for death, strike of the windlord, etc) and all abilities that are "your next spell will do some extra shit" (sharpen blade, soulburn, etc).

    And I ESPECIALLY hate them when they are on a spec that already has a shit ton of buttons, like feral, ww monk, or mm hunter.

    Oh never mind, they replaced a "your next spell will do some extra shit" button with another "your next spell will do some extra shit" button.

    Besides, MM is already pretty shit to average at PVP in the current patch, and Double Tap won't make any difference. MM needs survivability.

    The best times ever to be a MM hunter was back in MOP. That was the best iteration. Blizzard has been fucking up the spec ever since.
    Last edited by Cynical Asshole; 2022-12-16 at 10:07 AM.

  4. #4
    They literally removed MM kill condition in pvp with this change...

  5. #5
    im torn on this, at one hand im happy its gone, it was a pretty boring ability, but on the other hand it was nice for burst dps in M+/raids. Kinda dissapointed the new talent they added is pretty bad, i very much rather have AS on the move so the specc isnt as static (or make AS instant but with CD like Wotlk). in pvp MM most likely will be dead in the water and it kinda feels like the hunter devs (if we even have one) , didnt listen to beta feedback at all, our defensives is absolute trash tier and long cds. we dont provide any fun buff either (not to mention still having to pull out the pet for BL which is clunky asf).

    All in all i hope they buff the other abilities since it will knock us down on the M+ ladder with this removal, especielly since you cant do the DT+RF combo anymore.

  6. #6
    They took our damage but added nothing to compensate and we still have pretty bad def CD in PvE anyways. I die more often on my MM hunter in m+ than my other melee character who actually takes more damage due to in melee range and sometimes you just didn't get out fast enough.

    Not to mention DT is really helpful in AoE and ST(which currently MM really lacks in ST damage). Blizzard replace without something that's unless and is not worth a talent point. To top it off they also nerf MM hunter damage by 3%.

    Then you have Furry warrior, rouges, Monks, feral that's topping meters and most untouch (expect rouge they got a 3% nerf)

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by sponge5307 View Post
    They took our damage but added nothing to compensate and we still have pretty bad def CD in PvE anyways. I die more often on my MM hunter in m+ than my other melee character who actually takes more damage due to in melee range and sometimes you just didn't get out fast enough.

    Not to mention DT is really helpful in AoE and ST(which currently MM really lacks in ST damage). Blizzard replace without something that's unless and is not worth a talent point. To top it off they also nerf MM hunter damage by 3%.

    Then you have Furry warrior, rouges, Monks, feral that's topping meters and most untouch (expect rouge they got a 3% nerf)
    You have turtle, how can you with a straight face say that is "we still have pretty bad def cd in pve anyways"?

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by ryan92084 View Post
    One less button, I'll take it.
    Oh but they are turning salvo into a button, so nevermind.
    That should be viewed as a welcome change. Feels bad hanging on to MS or Volley if Salvo is off CD and the mobs are at/below 15% health because it gets wasted.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by tomten View Post
    You have turtle, how can you with a straight face say that is "we still have pretty bad def cd in pve anyways"?
    Because it’s not great, like other specs/classes have. Yes, it’s pretty good, but when compared to things like Rogues CoS/Evasion which clear almost everything off of them and makes them immune, and gives them 100% dodge while still attacking, or a Paladin bubble which clears everything and makes immune while still attacking, or all of the others (there are more), then it’s not as good as what else is out there.
    Turtle does shine in PvE on raid encounters where there are soak mechanics and need to be mobile, but Mages can also do this, as well as bubbled raid members, or even Rogues if Cheat Death off of CD. Hunters Turtle is just more reliable. The problem is, on an encounter where Turtle is necessary it becomes less of a CD to survive a bad moment and more of a way to deal with a raid mechanic that screws the raid if you don’t have it. Even when used as an “oh crap” button to survive, if dots are on you already you can still tick down and die. Then there’s mechanics that somehow STILL hit you thru Turtle, like the orbs on 2nd boss in Azure Vault.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by tomten View Post
    You have turtle, how can you with a straight face say that is "we still have pretty bad def cd in pve anyways"?
    Oh please with turtle you can't attack you are also you are still going to take damage Deflects all attacks and reduces all damage you take by 30% for 8 sec, but you cannot attack. So you have have a bleed or poison on you you are still taking damage and is on a 3min CD. There are other class with shorter and better CD then the so call turtle.

    I can use it and opt not to do damage with turtle is on while other class def CD they do a better job AND they can attack while the def CD is up.

  10. #10
    I still have Double tap - isnt this live today?

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Realchucky View Post
    I still have Double tap - isnt this live today?
    It's in patch 10.0.5

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by sponge5307 View Post
    They took our damage but added nothing to compensate and we still have pretty bad def CD in PvE anyways. I die more often on my MM hunter in m+ than my other melee character who actually takes more damage due to in melee range and sometimes you just didn't get out fast enough.

    Not to mention DT is really helpful in AoE and ST(which currently MM really lacks in ST damage). Blizzard replace without something that's unless and is not worth a talent point. To top it off they also nerf MM hunter damage by 3%.

    Then you have Furry warrior, rouges, Monks, feral that's topping meters and most untouch (expect rouge they got a 3% nerf)
    Not every nerf needs to be compensated, if the intention is to lower the damage.
    Removal of Double tap sucks a bit for opening burst in PvE and for PvP in general, but I think it's better in the long run.

    In PvE the ability was only really 'fun' in the opening for burst and only really 'useful' for the focus regen on Rapid Fire. Other than that it was damage and frankly I'm personally not a huge fan of wasting a GCD to buff the next cast midfight, breaks the flow a bit in my opinion.
    In PvP the loss is a big hit for hunter viability; but the ability has caused a lot of issues in the past where if it's good it will cause a lot of "one shot"-situations.

    I do hope they somewhat come with a little extra thing for ST MM, Steel trap feels very clunky and without DT we don't really have much spice for the rotation.

    Quote Originally Posted by tomten View Post
    You have turtle, how can you with a straight face say that is "we still have pretty bad def cd in pve anyways"?
    Turtle is a great cooldown and can be really useful, but in the current M+ setup it's lacking for hunters.
    All immunities have a certain weakness in general. E.g. Iceblock stops the mage from moving; Cloak of Shadows doesn't block physical damage. Weakness of turtle is that it doesn't stop damage that's already applied, such as debuffs and DoTs. It reduced the damage somewhat, but at higher keys and heroic+ raids those will still kill you.
    This M+ rotation has quite a lot of dungeons that apply debuffs to you that can kill you and Turtle isn't always up to par on those. E.g. Last boss in Ruby Life Pools drops the fire; on my rogue I can cloak if I get too many stacks of the debuff and take no damage and remain immune for a while. On my hunter I can turtle to reduce the damage slightly from the fire, but the debuff will remain and still kill me. Those situations are quite common now, so Turtle feels relatively weak to the other immunities.

    On top of the above Hunter generally has the worst passive defenses. We have little to no self healing and have little to no passive damage reduction, unlike virtually any other class.
    The cooldowns that we have aren't bad; Turtle is nice, Survival of the Fittest is good now that you can spec for 40% DR, Exhileration ìs a mediorce heal even with the massive talent investment and Fortitude of the Bear is decent as last stand but doesn't keep up at higher key levels.
    On top of the above however they all have long (2 min +) cooldowns and due to the lack of passive mitigation / sustain you have to pretty much chain them constantly to "keep up with the rest" and then you don't have anything if push comes to shove.

    Hunters lost 2 major mitigations going from SL into DF and that is -x% damage taken when hunter's mark is up and -x% damage taken for 3 seconds after FD.
    Both of those together were quite vital to reduce squishiness.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Nythiz View Post
    Not every nerf needs to be compensated, if the intention is to lower the damage.
    Removal of Double tap sucks a bit for opening burst in PvE and for PvP in general, but I think it's better in the long run.
    This is downplaying it. It's a major nerf. In PvP it's a huge loss of critical burst damage. In PvE not only is it a loss especially for shorter fights and AoE but its position in the talent tree is now taken by Steady Focus, a 2 point talent. This means we have to take 2 points to reach Serpentstalker's Trickery and Lock and Load, which takes away a point from elsewhere.

    "Better in the long run" is a common argument as of late and it's also intense copium. Tuning and design issues often go unfixed for years at a time. It's impossible to be betting on everything working out given that context. If the intent is opening up MM to rebalancing without causing issues with Double Tap, the time to do that rebalancing is 10.0.5 at the same time, not some unspecified and non-committal time in the future.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Bepples View Post
    This is downplaying it. It's a major nerf. In PvP it's a huge loss of critical burst damage. In PvE not only is it a loss especially for shorter fights and AoE

    "Better in the long run" is a common argument as of late and it's also intense copium. Tuning and design issues often go unfixed for years at a time. It's impossible to be betting on everything working out given that context. If the intent is opening up MM to rebalancing without causing issues with Double Tap, the time to do that rebalancing is 10.0.5 at the same time, not some unspecified and non-committal time in the future.
    I agree that for PvP this is pretty crippling at the moment and I really hope that they come with a proper new toy that isn't 10% cooldown reduction.
    I don't PvP on high level and after seeing some reactions I understand this is an insane knee cap to MM's burst potential.
    They should have done this at the start of the expansion and I agree that currently it leaves MM hunters (and the entire spec in general) in the dust for PvP.

    That said double tap in the past few expansions has put MM in the "one-trick-pony"-category quite often. I was merely stating that the spec is really hard to improve when you have a talent such as Double Tap in your line up, since any buff would make that skill a liability for balance.

    With regards to PvE, yes it's good for opening burst for sure. But in PvE you're often looking at the bigger picture and DT's impact outside of short length AoE fights is small. I liked using it in an opener as a burst toggle, but I hated using it midfight as it takes a GCD that doesn't do anything.
    The skill is also not impactful enough to sit on for a big burst window, with a few exceptions perhaps, as you'd lose more than just using it on cooldown.

    I still think removal of Double Tap is a neccessity in the bigger picture. But the compensation we get right now, I agree is not sufficient.

    but its position in the talent tree is now taken by Steady Focus, a 2 point talent. This means we have to take 2 points to reach Serpentstalker's Trickery and Lock and Load, which takes away a point from elsewhere.
    I agree this move is quite stupid.

    "Better in the long run" is a common argument as of late and it's also intense copium. Tuning and design issues often go unfixed for years at a time.
    "Better in the long run" is not an argument in this case, it's my opinion.
    In PvP the talent has been the cause for many cries for nerfs because it one shots and similarily it has been completely irrelevant at other times when MM wasn't viable.
    In PvE the talent is only really fun when you pop big numbers on the opener, but I'd prefer something with a bit more depth than "your next thing times two".

    It's true that Tuning and design issues go unfixed for years at a time. But to be frank, Blizzard has been on the ball with things since Dragonflight.
    And it's not like whining and complaining on an a half deceased forum is going to really have much impact anyway.

  15. #15
    Most people don't seem to understand what they're talking about regarding these changes.

    The only people with a valid argument are PvP players that want a "delete" button. Yes this is a straight nerf to MM pvp, but more realistically a balance. They probably realised this is going to scale terribly with gear.

    For PvE, this appears to be an overall buff. In single target, the damage over time will be larger, with more Rapid Fire and Aimed Shot casts and less time down time. On top of the -10% cooldown timers, the new talent tree layout means you always take Deadeye.

    People are completely misunderstanding the shift in talents. In single target, you no longer ever talent into Volley: you put 1 point into Deadeye instead of Double Tap and 1 point into Tactical Reload instead of Volley.

    For AoE, people are completely ignoring the buff to Salvo. Salvo basically has become a 45 second triggered ability, allowing you to pick and place your double explosive shots, instead of randomly triggering them even when you don't want them. You'll know when the ability is available every time.

    So burst opening dps will suffer a lot, but overall dps and the low hp parts of fights will be higher. They've basically added consistency to the spec.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinzai View Post
    Most people don't seem to understand what they're talking about regarding these changes.

    The only people with a valid argument are PvP players that want a "delete" button. Yes this is a straight nerf to MM pvp, but more realistically a balance. They probably realised this is going to scale terribly with gear.

    For PvE, this appears to be an overall buff. In single target, the damage over time will be larger, with more Rapid Fire and Aimed Shot casts and less time down time. On top of the -10% cooldown timers, the new talent tree layout means you always take Deadeye.

    People are completely misunderstanding the shift in talents. In single target, you no longer ever talent into Volley: you put 1 point into Deadeye instead of Double Tap and 1 point into Tactical Reload instead of Volley.

    For AoE, people are completely ignoring the buff to Salvo. Salvo basically has become a 45 second triggered ability, allowing you to pick and place your double explosive shots, instead of randomly triggering them even when you don't want them. You'll know when the ability is available every time.

    So burst opening dps will suffer a lot, but overall dps and the low hp parts of fights will be higher. They've basically added consistency to the spec.
    This is true and i agree with you.

    On PvE the Opener Burst was nice but Midfight i often thought the GCD is horrible and also you need to time DT using with your Focus. If you use DT and havent enaugh focus for Amied Shot or other procs are up at this time it dont feel smooth.

    On PvP it is a hard Burst Nerf and i dont understand why Blizzard cut out the ability completly. They could change DT like on PvP it only does 50% more Damage or give him a higher CD.

    But we will see next week how MM will perform in PvE and PvP.

    I hope in PvP people dont focus MM anymore and underestimate him now. I was a Pain after Camo bursting and than beeing focused all time. Hunters are way to squishy in PvP and always focus target.

    Ah also the new Salvo is great because i often have the problem that the explosive shot proc come at the wrong time and if you use the real explosive shot you reset the salvo explosive shot.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinzai View Post
    Most people don't seem to understand what they're talking about regarding these changes.

    The only people with a valid argument are PvP players that want a "delete" button. Yes this is a straight nerf to MM pvp, but more realistically a balance. They probably realised this is going to scale terribly with gear.

    For PvE, this appears to be an overall buff. In single target, the damage over time will be larger, with more Rapid Fire and Aimed Shot casts and less time down time. On top of the -10% cooldown timers, the new talent tree layout means you always take Deadeye.
    Deadeye is a horrible talent though; it does practically nothing for your dps.
    Either you'll be forced to take it to progress or you'll be spending the DT point + 1 floating talent point you currently have both into Steady Focus.
    Which might be decent for Raids, but quite lame for M+

    Both options are pretty bad as we lose flexibility that we obtained to opt for one of 4 different talents* depending on our needs.
    (* Heavy Ammo / Light Ammo / Wailing Arrow / Hunter's Knowledge)
    Bad move by blizzard to swap the talents really.


    People are completely misunderstanding the shift in talents. In single target, you no longer ever talent into Volley: you put 1 point into Deadeye instead of Double Tap and 1 point into Tactical Reload instead of Volley.

    For AoE, people are completely ignoring the buff to Salvo. Salvo basically has become a 45 second triggered ability, allowing you to pick and place your double explosive shots, instead of randomly triggering them even when you don't want them. You'll know when the ability is available every time.

    So burst opening dps will suffer a lot, but overall dps and the low hp parts of fights will be higher. They've basically added consistency to the spec.
    I'm not so sure there. For single target you're probably better off taking Steady Focus anyway, since that was a solid talent for ST fights already, we just didn't have to points for it. Taking deadeye doesn't seem like a great choice either way, the bonus to Kill Shot is not that large.
    For AoE see what I said above; you're either forced into Steady Focus and lose the 1 flex point or you'll go for Deadeye which does nothing.

    For AoE I think you're overselling the manual trigger a bit. Is it better? Yes, but it's not THAT much better. Especially not with losing DT Rapid Fire.
    Most AoE pulls in M+ or Raids where you pull enough mobs to Volley/Multishot are worth using Explosive Shot on anyway.
    I think a lot of people will macro it on Volley to make sure they use it on CD every 45 seconds. Then you still have the slight control not to waste it with multishot on weak mobs, but it's still pretty much a no brainer.

    That all said. Double Tap for PvE wasn't massive. It's 1 extra Rapid Fire every minute, so mostly a bit of AoE lost.
    For PvP it's a bigger loss, but that talent caused a ton of issue I just hope they consider buffing Hunters in PvP if they start to slip.


    Quote Originally Posted by Realchucky View Post
    This is true and i agree with you.

    On PvE the Opener Burst was nice but Midfight i often thought the GCD is horrible and also you need to time DT using with your Focus. If you use DT and havent enaugh focus for Amied Shot or other procs are up at this time it dont feel smooth.
    You never really needed focus, since you should always have been using Double Tap with Rapid Fire.
    Just pop it right before or as RF comes off cooldown.

    On PvP it is a hard Burst Nerf and i dont understand why Blizzard cut out the ability completly. They could change DT like on PvP it only does 50% more Damage or give him a higher CD.
    On PvP it's always been pretty binary.
    It's either super OP where you 1 shot out of Camo (or at least get him inside killshot range), or it doesn't and then it loses a lot of it's danger right away.
    Binary skills like that are never really good; if hunter's start to fall behind they should buff them elsewhere.

  18. #18
    Clueless posters here, but thanks to the crying PvE players we probably did get this change in the first place, because my globals.

    This change kills MM in pvp, since Double Tap RF was our main pressure. It alone could not kill and you alwaya have a sequence of Chakram and Salvo involved.

    If you got one shot from stealth, you are bad and you got cheesed with Sniper Shot probably, an ability not taken in arena by any serious pvp player. So this guts the already mediocre spec in PvP whilw letting the horribad defensives stay unchanged. MM is now a glass without cannon. DT was alread hard to pull off in both organized and RSS arena sue to million micro ccs, hard ccs, disarms and defensives. Also, Night elf racial cancels it completely.

    In PvE this amounts to 3% nerf to single and a bigger hit to our AoE. And this is not including heavy movement. Our niche was burst, and this removes it completely, making our damage profile the same as other hunter specs.

    This is probably the biggest nerf i have seen in recent history and the worst thing is, not a word of developers about the intent and a month of overwhelmingly negative feedback on PTR ignored. MM in its current iteration since BfA made sense with DT, it was a core ability which is getting changed MID expansion, instead of being done on beta.

    Now all it is left is a unfurfilling spec with no flare, no "oomph" feeling, with outdated mechanics and with the worst spec tree (which they also broke by swapping Steady shotnhaste talent, breaking the best A oE build).

    A spec which still cant measure to its decades old iterations.

    DF is amazing content wise, but i am appalled by this and ut is a hard pill to swallow.

  19. #19
    I like Double Tap so that's sad
    My Collection
    - Bring back my damn zoom distance/MoP Portals - I read OP minimum, 1st page maximum-make wow alt friendly again -Please post constructively(topkek) -Kill myself

  20. #20
    MM has been a stagnant spec since the good glaive nerf near the beginning of legion with only some sets etc to mix things up. If trading out some burst gets us a deeper look I'm for it.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •