Leaving M+ group should give you DESERTER

[Nite92]

I actually don't mind people leaving in the first 5 minutes - at least they are saving my time. But people who leave before the last boss should be locked out of their account for a couple of days.

Why? Unless agreed upon otherwise, it is perfectly reasonable to be in a key only for score. Also I doubt many people leave before the endboss without having wiped already to said boss.

[Alroxas]

Simple when you apply for a group it shows exactly how many keys you left that week in the baracerts of +1 to +5, +6 to +10, +11 to +15 , +16 to +20 and +2- amnd beyond. So the group leader can decide if they want to invite you to the group base of the keys you left at what level. Since people doing +20 is doing it to time the key so even if you have 100 keys left in +20 it normal vs 100 key left in +15.

But nope, everyone here does not even what others to see how many keys they left. They simply want to "hide" the fact how many keys they left thus any form of punishment even if it is just to show the group leader how many keys you left is consider bad.

So if you're tracking "key left" as a stat, then players (instead of leaving) will now waste additional group time (via playing poorly) so that someone else "leaves first" so they don't gain that stat.

Do you know what a good solution is, then? Don't allow m+ to be posted in the group founder finder.

The problem here is the number of good experiences via group finder outweighs the occasional bad experience of group finder. So no that's probably not going to fly.

What really needs to happen is group leaders need a better understanding on how to select players for their runs. Mostly involving communicating more with their potential party members to make sure that the group goal is aligned with the individual goals of each player.

For example, Bob is a only here for M+ score so regardless of his score, his ilv, his meta spec... Maybe you should not pick Bob if you want completion. Nobody likes you Bob. (Sorry to all the non-douche Bobs out there)

[sponge5307]

So if you're tracking "key left" as a stat, then players (instead of leaving) will now waste additional group time (via playing poorly) so that someone else "leaves first" so they don't gain that stat.





The problem here is the number of good experiences via group finder outweighs the occasional bad experience of group finder. So no that's probably not going to fly.

What really needs to happen is group leaders need a better understanding on how to select players for their runs. Mostly involving communicating more with their potential party members to make sure that the group goal is aligned with the individual goals of each player.

For example, Bob is a only here for M+ score so regardless of his score, his ilv, his meta spec... Maybe you should not pick Bob if you want completion. Nobody likes you Bob. (Sorry to all the non-douche Bobs out there)

Bob is always a douche! JK.

I pretty much stop pushing m+ this expansion (early retirement). Only did one +20 last week and this week going to the same. Between having people leave randomly (not all the time but more like 1 in 10 runs) and the reason is pretty stupid too from tank is not going the route I like I am leaving to dinner is ready bye! to OMG tank didn't do countdown.

Then there is the class balance. Some class is a way ahead of the curve compare to other spec not only in terms in damage, but the utilities they provide, the tankiness of different tanks, to healers. You are going to have to a much easier time if you have a prot warrior, BDK, DH, WW monk, Resto druid, Preservation evoker, MM hunter, rouge and a moonkin. They simply perfrom much better than other class not just in damage but the utilities they have. As a DH main I have multiple interrupts which is very very useful in m+ in DF since there are so many caster mobs. Other spec like fury warrior and SV hunter or even frost and unholy DK just can't it in utilities. Not to mention a lot of dps class are underturn like SV hunter and DKs. There is also so AoE spell to dodge is nuts. Is so unforgiving as a caster. Prot warrior making up just a bit over 40% in +20 keys as tank and both resto druid and Preservation evoker takinger over 45% of healers in m+20 is not a healthy design for the game. Yet the nerf we just had in 10.0.5 hardly shifted the meta.

Is funny coz I apply for a +3 on my guardian druid to tank (ilvl 380) got invited and was able to enter the dungeon but the healer complain having a guardian druid as tank since it is bad and they should wait for a prot warrior. So I got boot. LOL

Yup given up on any m+ for now. I am happy doing 1 m+20 on my DH and call it a week. Would rather spend the time to level all class to 70 and farm mogs from old content at this point.

[kamuimac]

Bob is always a douche! JK.

I pretty much stop pushing m+ this expansion (early retirement). Only did one +20 last week and this week going to the same. Between having people leave randomly (not all the time but more like 1 in 10 runs) and the reason is pretty stupid too from tank is not going the route I like I am leaving to dinner is ready bye! to OMG tank didn't do countdown.

Then there is the class balance. Some class is a way ahead of the curve compare to other spec not only in terms in damage, but the utilities they provide, the tankiness of different tanks, to healers. You are going to have to a much easier time if you have a prot warrior, BDK, DH, WW monk, Resto druid, Preservation evoker, MM hunter, rouge and a moonkin. They simply perfrom much better than other class not just in damage but the utilities they have. As a DH main I have multiple interrupts which is very very useful in m+ in DF since there are so many caster mobs. Other spec like fury warrior and SV hunter or even frost and unholy DK just can't it in utilities. Not to mention a lot of dps class are underturn like SV hunter and DKs. There is also so AoE spell to dodge is nuts. Is so unforgiving as a caster. Prot warrior making up just a bit over 40% in +20 keys as tank and both resto druid and Preservation evoker takinger over 45% of healers in m+20 is not a healthy design for the game. Yet the nerf we just had in 10.0.5 hardly shifted the meta.

Is funny coz I apply for a +3 on my guardian druid to tank (ilvl 380) got invited and was able to enter the dungeon but the healer complain having a guardian druid as tank since it is bad and they should wait for a prot warrior. So I got boot. LOL

Yup given up on any m+ for now. I am happy doing 1 m+20 on my DH and call it a week. Would rather spend the time to level all class to 70 and farm mogs from old content at this point.

thats honestly the best thing you can do . im not such good player like you but i just do 1x16 on my hunter and 1x15 on my VDH and 1x14 on my evoker and end it for that week.

with current tuning of m+ i honestly have much more fun leveling my alts to max level then wasting time on pushing keys just to have maybe 5 itlv more at the end of the season with with S2 reseting everything .

will my GV be rubbish duplicate sometimes ? sure it will be but you know waht ? i honestly couldnt care less.

this season is trash - we will see without doubt tens of waves of nerfs more untill dungeons will become playable but for me its to late.

DF is complete fail in my eyes anyway so glad i dont feel urge to play more - in SL i was doing m+ on 13 chars because S3 an 4 very fun nicely tuned . now even 3 dungeons are to much for me.

[Relapses]

Bob is always a douche! JK.

I pretty much stop pushing m+ this expansion (early retirement). Only did one +20 last week and this week going to the same. Between having people leave randomly (not all the time but more like 1 in 10 runs) and the reason is pretty stupid too from tank is not going the route I like I am leaving to dinner is ready bye! to OMG tank didn't do countdown.

Then there is the class balance. Some class is a way ahead of the curve compare to other spec not only in terms in damage, but the utilities they provide, the tankiness of different tanks, to healers. You are going to have to a much easier time if you have a prot warrior, BDK, DH, WW monk, Resto druid, Preservation evoker, MM hunter, rouge and a moonkin. They simply perfrom much better than other class not just in damage but the utilities they have. As a DH main I have multiple interrupts which is very very useful in m+ in DF since there are so many caster mobs. Other spec like fury warrior and SV hunter or even frost and unholy DK just can't it in utilities. Not to mention a lot of dps class are underturn like SV hunter and DKs. There is also so AoE spell to dodge is nuts. Is so unforgiving as a caster. Prot warrior making up just a bit over 40% in +20 keys as tank and both resto druid and Preservation evoker takinger over 45% of healers in m+20 is not a healthy design for the game. Yet the nerf we just had in 10.0.5 hardly shifted the meta.

Is funny coz I apply for a +3 on my guardian druid to tank (ilvl 380) got invited and was able to enter the dungeon but the healer complain having a guardian druid as tank since it is bad and they should wait for a prot warrior. So I got boot. LOL

Yup given up on any m+ for now. I am happy doing 1 m+20 on my DH and call it a week. Would rather spend the time to level all class to 70 and farm mogs from old content at this point.

Don't ever apply to a +3. You're only going to find misery there. The only people who get +3s are the ones who somehow only +1'd a 2 or they somehow depleted a 4.

[sponge5307]

thats honestly the best thing you can do . im not such good player like you but i just do 1x16 on my hunter and 1x15 on my VDH and 1x14 on my evoker and end it for that week.

with current tuning of m+ i honestly have much more fun leveling my alts to max level then wasting time on pushing keys just to have maybe 5 itlv more at the end of the season with with S2 reseting everything .

will my GV be rubbish duplicate sometimes ? sure it will be but you know waht ? i honestly couldnt care less.

this season is trash - we will see without doubt tens of waves of nerfs more untill dungeons will become playable but for me its to late.

DF is complete fail in my eyes anyway so glad i dont feel urge to play more - in SL i was doing m+ on 13 chars because S3 an 4 very fun nicely tuned . now even 3 dungeons are to much for me.

You did more I only do 1 +20 on DH now. I think is around ilvl 400lish more or less? Honestly I just pick the fastest and easier dungeon to do and call it a day.

Maybe once sub runs out I am going wait till end of DF to come back when all the tuning are done and blizzard fix the spec balance(hopefully) and everything is nerfed or fix all the AoE damage in m+.

[Archy]

Bingo.

Every single freakin "solution" suggested since the creation of Mythic+ has been plagued with unintended consequences. People will post their brilliant idea to Reddit without thinking through those consequences, and others will point out exactly those consequences. On Reddit there's a guy that posts in every "M+ leaver solution" thread a list of previous Reddit posts going back to Legion with the ideas suggested and the comments section explaining why it's not a viable idea.

Once players start understanding that they have the power to control who they play with, the sooner we will stop seeing these types of threads pop up on the mmo-champion forums and Reddit. Until then, we're going to continue to have some person who thinks they're smarter than the rest of the room tell us their genius idea for M+ and then have it devolve into 700+ pages of posts explaining why it won't work.

Just because an idea can't fix the problem entirely, doesn't mean it can't help. A vote button, for stopping runs, paired with a rating system (thumbs up, thumbs down kinda thing after the run ends) would be a step in the right direction.

But that's exactly the problem. You don't really have the power to control who you're playing with. There is not enough information available to make an informed decision on the fly. You can judge the skill lvl and power lvl somewhat but not the player's behaviour. In other games are consequences for leaving. They're here for a reason. In M+ you can just quit whenever and brick someone's key and there is no downside for you.

[sponge5307]

Just because an idea can't fix the problem entirely, doesn't mean it can't help. A vote button, for stopping runs, paired with a rating system (thumbs up, thumbs down kinda thing after the run ends) would be a step in the right direction.

But that's exactly the problem. You don't really have the power to control who you're playing with. There is not enough information available to make an informed decision on the fly. You can judge the skill lvl and power lvl somewhat but not the player's behaviour. In other games are consequences for leaving. They're here for a reason. In M+ you can just quit whenever and brick someone's key and there is no downside for you.

The main issue is with the timer and how blizzard pushes the community to go go go, or if the keys won't be timed, leave! Other MMO don't really push that kinda gameplay. Not to mention people want to show off their io score if they aren't sticking around if they know the run isn't going to help them. Also the loot % is so low, blizzard cant' easily up the loot. So many times I finish a m+ and got no loot coz we didn't three chests it. Is such a bad experience. There is a reason why people only do 1 4 or 9 dungeons for the great vault. I think blizzard should add back badge gear so that even if you don't get any loot end of dungeons you still get badges let's say by end of the week if you do 8 dungeons you have enough badges to get something major like a chest or weapons. Plus there is a great vault. This makes it, so people are more willing to stick around to the end of a dungeon coz they know that even if it is not timed as long as they stick around they are guaranteed to get a piece of loot they are looking for via badge gear. Make it so badge gear is the same item level as completing a +20.

To this day I am still not sure why blizzard is against giving players more gear. Is not like they will leave. With easier access to gear, players can level other alts or another spec to try, which is much more enjoyable for the players instead of grinding gear for one spec only. If a player wants to stop playing they will stop playing stretching out the grind won't help. Heck, I still have an active sub in FFXIV, and I got every single job to the max with decent gear. I still log in once in a while and if they have a new event or content I will stick around. Not even sure why blizzard is so scared of players leaving. Look at the lead design of FFXIV he even encourages people to try other games if they get are getting bored of FFXIV and come back later when they want to try FFXI. He isn't even scared of people leaving and not coming back coz he understand that's what players do.

[Nite92]

Just because an idea can't fix the problem entirely, doesn't mean it can't help. A vote button, for stopping runs, paired with a rating system (thumbs up, thumbs down kinda thing after the run ends) would be a step in the right direction.

This vote system is a horrible idea. You'd put faith in people to understand what caused a wipe. And people, especially in lower keys, do not understand what actually caused a deplete (which is a legit reason to leave btw).

Even people in higher keys often do not get why a group wiped.

[Anzen]

This vote system is a horrible idea. You'd put faith in people to understand what caused a wipe. And people, especially in lower keys, do not understand what actually caused a deplete (which is a legit reason to leave btw).

Even people in higher keys often do not get why a group wiped.

I can not emphasize enough how important this is.

It's extremely common that a healer might leave thinking:

"I can't believe that DPS got hit by every single ability, I managed to pop cooldowns to keep them alive at the start but it's not sustainable, it's obvious they have no idea what they're doing."

Whereas the same time the DPS might be thinking:

"Rubbish healer can't keep me alive then leaves out of embarrassment! Grr what a timewaster."

From personal experience, I was late to start this season so was sadly left wallowing in the lower brackets longer than I'd usually like, and it was honestly horrendous. Self awareness = 0.

As a healer, I'd lost count of the amount of times a DPS would get one shot by an ability, and then immediately blame me for their death.

Even enabling death announcer in details and elitisthelper didn't help, I still regularly encountered:

"[Instance][Anzen]: Demonhunterlol got hit by [Meteor] for 420k."
"Demonhunterlol has died."
"[Instance][Demonhunterlol]: heals ffs?"

You can not have people voting on the cause of the runs failure - when they may not understand the cause of the runs failure.

[Archy]

The main issue is with the timer and how blizzard pushes the community to go go go, or if the keys won't be timed, leave!

There is a lot of incentive to stay. Even if the key isn't yours you'll still get loot, counts towards the vault and can can give rating + bonus valor. If the dungeon isn't timed the only thing stopping you from beating it is a healer that doesn't loose mana. That's not good design.

This vote system is a horrible idea. You'd put faith in people to understand what caused a wipe. And people, especially in lower keys, do not understand what actually caused a deplete (which is a legit reason to leave btw).

Even people in higher keys often do not get why a group wiped.

I put faith in large numbers and comparability. If people tend to blame the healer, all healers would get blamed equally. Things like that should even out over a number of runs.

You can not have people voting on the cause of the runs failure - when they may not understand the cause of the runs failure.

Again, this will even out. But what will stand out are players who behave in a way that the group doesn't like (or a constantly bad). Also don't forget that the main intention isn't reporting bad players (although I understand that this will be a big part of it).

[Anzen]

Again, this will even out. But what will stand out are players who behave in a way that the group doesn't like (or a constantly bad). Also don't forget that the main intention isn't reporting bad players (although I understand that this will be a big part of it).

While I admire your Utopian view of the world, I don't think you can just wave away all of the valid concerns raised in this thread with a simple 'this will even out'.

While in a perfect world, players would self reflect after a run and think "a lot of people have left runs I'm in, perhaps I need to look inwards and consider whether I'm the problem?", the reality is that most people are experts in avoiding accountability and would rather go to various gaming forums to post threads about how leavers should be punished backed up with their anecdotal experiences of 'healers leaving randomly'... I'm sure we can all think of a thread like that.

Unfortunately it is also the reality that tanks and healers usually do end up taking a lot blame in pugs. If a DPS dies on a boss, it's not a big deal, if a tank or healer dies, it's a wipe.

However echoing Nite92's views, this becomes significantly less of an issue in higher level keys, where players are generally more aware of the reasons for their death.

Honestly I wouldn't be fussed at all if we split this thread in two and agreed that higher level keys (say >15) remain untouched, and you can do what you want with keys lower than that. There obviously remains the overarching issue of how you apply it without it being abused.

Still though, I think this whole thread is about a total non-issue. Any fix seems to be like de-weeding your garden with a hand grenade. If people are experiencing people constantly leaving their runs, maybe they need to look inwards.

[Nite92]

I put faith in large numbers and comparability. If people tend to blame the healer, all healers would get blamed equally. Things like that should even out over a number of runs.

So if you have bad luck first 5 times? Such a popularity contest is worse than just sticking to what we have.

[Anzen]

So if you have bad luck first 5 times? Such a popularity contest is worse than just sticking to what we have.

I can say for certain I'd never run with a guild group or bunch of friends ever again.

I love how no matter how complicated the systems people suggest throughout this thread are (including various scores, sorted by brackets, manual vote boxes for who was to blame, manual votes to quit a run decided by the majority, filters for the intentions of a run with penalties for defecters, deserter debuffs for the first leaver, aesthetic debuffs, etc) - they nearly all bring a whole host of negatives and unintended consequences.

All to fix something, that wasn't even a problem to begin with! And all conveyed under a false narrative that the few people that do leave runs, do so for absolutely no reason and thus should be punished.

I think we can all reasonably agree that ideally we wouldn't punish people that need to leave for genuine emergencies, so this whole thread is based on this giant strawman evil guy that joins runs, only to leave before the last boss "for no reason".

Can't say I've ever encountered him, but he appears to be everywhere.

[cigawoot]

Just because an idea can't fix the problem entirely, doesn't mean it can't help. A vote button, for stopping runs, paired with a rating system (thumbs up, thumbs down kinda thing after the run ends) would be a step in the right direction.

But that's exactly the problem. You don't really have the power to control who you're playing with. There is not enough information available to make an informed decision on the fly. You can judge the skill lvl and power lvl somewhat but not the player's behaviour. In other games are consequences for leaving. They're here for a reason. In M+ you can just quit whenever and brick someone's key and there is no downside for you.

The problem is these ideas have negative consequences that make the game actively worse. I bet this is how you envision a typical interaction at a doctor's office:

Patient: Hey Doc, my hand is hurting really bad.
Doctor: Oh? I've got a fix for it.

Doctor proceeds to amputate the patient's hand

Doctor: Okay, I removed the thing that was causing pain.
Patient: I DON'T HAVE A HAND ANYMORE
Doctor: That's okay, it was still better than doing nothing, right?

[Anzen]

The problem is these ideas have negative consequences that make the game actively worse. I bet this is how you envision a typical interaction at a doctor's office:

Patient: Hey Doc, my hand is hurting really bad.
Doctor: Oh? I've got a fix for it.

Doctor proceeds to amputate the patient's hand

Doctor: Okay, I removed the thing that was causing pain.
Patient: I DON'T HAVE A HAND ANYMORE
Doctor: That's okay, it was still better than doing nothing, right?

It's worse than that since most in this thread admit it is an issue they don't commonly encounter.

It's closer to:

Patient: Hey Doc, thanks for my checkup.
Doctor: No problem, was there any other issues you've had over the past 12 months?
Patient: Well except for my daughter closing a door on my hand a few months ago haha, nothing I don't think?

Doctor proceeds to amputate the patient's hands

Doctor: Okay, I removed the thing that caused you pain. You won't be able to get your hands shut in a door any more.
Patient: I DON'T HAVE HANDS
Doctor: That's okay, it was still better than doing nothing, right?

[Archy]

While I admire your Utopian view of the world, I don't think you can just wave away all of the valid concerns raised in this thread with a simple 'this will even out'.
-snip-
Still though, I think this whole thread is about a total non-issue.

I think we can all reasonably agree that ideally we wouldn't punish people that need to leave for genuine emergencies, so this whole thread is based on this giant strawman evil guy that joins runs, only to leave before the last boss "for no reason".

It's a statistical view. It will even out, it just might take a few runs.

The interesting thing is that you don't think that this is an issue and it's just an evil strawman. But people who are maliciously downvoting someone would be very common. Why is that?

So if you have bad luck first 5 times? Such a popularity contest is worse than just sticking to what we have.

5 times in a row? Very unlikely. But if that's a worry, you could do a couple of things about that. Just give people who get upvoted a lot a star or something and don't show the rating at all. Don't show it in the first 10-20 runs and have newbie flower (like FFXIV) instead. I'm just spitballing here but this would have no negative effect on the game, just rewarding friendly players.

[sponge5307]

I can not emphasize enough how important this is.

It's extremely common that a healer might leave thinking:

"I can't believe that DPS got hit by every single ability, I managed to pop cooldowns to keep them alive at the start but it's not sustainable, it's obvious they have no idea what they're doing."

Whereas the same time the DPS might be thinking:

"Rubbish healer can't keep me alive then leaves out of embarrassment! Grr what a timewaster."

From personal experience, I was late to start this season so was sadly left wallowing in the lower brackets longer than I'd usually like, and it was honestly horrendous. Self awareness = 0.

As a healer, I'd lost count of the amount of times a DPS would get one shot by an ability, and then immediately blame me for their death.

Even enabling death announcer in details and elitisthelper didn't help, I still regularly encountered:

"[Instance][Anzen]: Demonhunterlol got hit by [Meteor] for 420k."
"Demonhunterlol has died."
"[Instance][Demonhunterlol]: heals ffs?"

You can not have people voting on the cause of the runs failure - when they may not understand the cause of the runs failure.

Might be a different case for hunters. even with use unavoidable AoE damage on DoT if I don't pop 2 CD at once or use a pot or warlock stone I can tell you my hp bar just keeps getting lower and lower. Is such a horrible experience with my MM hunter literally all my DEF CD will be on CD as soon as the ready same with my hp pots.

Friend and I had a good laugh when literally I would sit there drinking and eating after pull to keep my hp up or I would die to a DoT even with turtle active.

Healers need to bascially babysit a hunter at all times.

[Alroxas]

Might be a different case for hunters. even with use unavoidable AoE damage on DoT if I don't pop 2 CD at once or use a pot or warlock stone I can tell you my hp bar just keeps getting lower and lower. Is such a horrible experience with my MM hunter literally all my DEF CD will be on CD as soon as the ready same with my hp pots.

Enchant cloak + bracers for Leech?

The better cloak enchant for leech (Regenerative Leech) also adds an out of combat healing effect as well (works great for grievous weeks between pulls)

[kamuimac]

Enchant cloak + bracers for Leech?

The better cloak enchant for leech (Regenerative Leech) also adds an out of combat healing effect as well (works great for grievous weeks between pulls)

ye those got much cheapers lately so definetly may be worth it.

definetly woudl be worth for people in low keys who dont enchant their gear at all "because its just +12-15 " and then do surprise pikachu face when others leave mid key because they cba to carry them for free.