hot take : tier sets are worst than the much hated artifacts and covenents

[arandomuser]

as title says i think tier sets have all of the same negatives as the systems people hated in bfa/shadowlands but the community dosent want to notice or admit it just because its something we've had before

grind? if your guild is serious they will run lfr/normal/heroic to get your tier every week( until they all get theirs and are bored, and if you still dont have 4 set, tough luck go pug and roll in the new forced group loot against 8 people trading to a guildy ), if you dont have the time or patience for that, guess what you will be perpetually behind..just like artifact power, in fact, atleast artifact power did have a catch up mechanic and covenants everyone gained their power the same week. and for the "borrowed" aspect of it, what happens next tier. 1. you will replace your old tier in the very same fashion you obtained it last patch or 2. even worst your previous tier sims higher on raidbots and you are forced to use your old tier anyway.

The systems honestly felt alot more intuitive and less RNG, you put in more work to grind AP = your character stronger, and itd be something to do other than raid logging

alot of these complaints arent that relevent now that the catalyst is out but they were very pronounced in the previous weeks, this isnt a rage thread as i did have my 4 set early on because i was one of the people who did every difficulty grinding it out, but alot of people are reporting especially if they are more casual ( or even M+ers) are just getting 4 set with the catalyst this week

[Val the Moofia Boss]

My issue with tier sets is that Blizzard punishes you for trying to combo different tier set effects together and deactivates the bonuses of old tier sets, so character customization when it comes to your equipment is nonexistent. Blizzard forces you to use the latest tier set whether you like its effects and how it changes your gameplay or not.

[loras]

as title says i think tier sets have all of the same negatives as the systems people hated in bfa/shadowlands but the community dosent want to notice or admit it just because its something we've had before

grind? if your guild is serious they will run lfr/normal/heroic to get your tier every week( until they all get theirs and are bored, and if you still dont have 4 set, tough luck go pug and roll in the new forced group loot against 8 people trading to a guildy ), if you dont have the time or patience for that, guess what you will be perpetually behind..just like artifact power, in fact, atleast artifact power did have a catch up mechanic and covenants everyone gained their power the same week. and for the "borrowed" aspect of it, what happens next tier. 1. you will replace your old tier in the very same fashion you obtained it last patch or 2. even worst your previous tier sims higher on raidbots and you are forced to use your old tier anyway.

The systems honestly felt alot more intuitive and less RNG, you put in more work to grind AP = your character stronger, and itd be something to do other than raid logging

I'd like it more if they didn't keep caving in to the endless whining of raiders and just make that engine of innovation available from day 1.

[Glorious Leader]

Yea its all borrowed power. Everybody cried about borrowed power only to embrace it again.

[Relapses]

Tier isn't perfect. The fact that it takes 6 weeks to unlock the catalyst is straight dogshit. But it's better than a system that has to be completely redesigned two or three times throughout an expansion, starting off miserable and eventually being palatable by the end... only to get yeeted for the next flavor of bullshit from the proceeding expansion.

Imo, things like the MoP cloak and WoD ring hit the sweet spot in terms of borrowed power. I'd much rather they bring things like that back than any of the borrowed powered systems we had from Legion through SL.

[Malkiah]

Yea its all borrowed power. Everybody cried about borrowed power only to embrace it again.

at least "borrowed power" systems were expansion long... you knew what you were getting into during beta and how your class was going to look mechanics-wise for the next 2-3 years.
tier sets? who the fuck knows... maybe you end up with a passive, maybe you end up with something that completely changes your rotation and feel of your class. and that happens 2-4 times per expansion.
and it completely locks out gear choices and secondaries selection for 4-6 slots. and it's horribly RNG dependent. and it actively punishes non-raiders compared to raiders in terms of timing and gate-keeping.

i guess ultimately that's why the general vibe on MMO-C is accepting of tier sets - the player community here seems to be largely raidlogger types who don't seem to give a single shit about the state of the game overall so long as they never, EVER have to set foot outside of a raid instance to be numerically superior to everyone else.

- - - Updated - - -

Tier isn't perfect. The fact that it takes 6 weeks to unlock the catalyst is straight dogshit. But it's better than a system that has to be completely redesigned two or three times throughout an expansion, starting off miserable and eventually being palatable by the end... only to get yeeted for the next flavor of bullshit from the proceeding expansion.

wait, what?

tier sets are literally redesigned 2-4 times per expansion and have all the same tuning and mechanics issues as any expansion themed systems, and get "yeeted" even MORE often than the "borrowed power" systems.
the only difference is that they disproportionately punish non-raiders more than raiders, which i guess is why the MMO-C l33t community loves them so much.

tier sets are in every single measurable way almost infinitely worse than expansion systems, and yet they are generally viewed fondly by a certain segment of posters who play WoW only to raidlog.
gee, wonder why that is.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

tier sets are literally redesigned 2-4 times per expansion and have all the same tuning and mechanics issues as any expansion themed systems, and get "yeeted" even MORE often than the "borrowed power" systems.
the only difference is that they disproportionately punish non-raiders more than raiders, which i guess is why the MMO-C l33t community loves them so much.

tier sets are in every single measurable way almost infinitely worse than expansion systems, and yet they are generally viewed fondly by a certain segment of posters who play WoW only to raidlog.
gee, wonder why that is.

I can't see how anything can possibly be worse than endless AP grinds and renown stuff and covenant locking lol.

If the catalyst opened earlier it would be fine. Like a month earlier at least.

[Tziva]

I think a lot of this complaint -- while valid on the surface -- is negated by the addition of the catalyst to make tier pieces, and the inclusion of tier availability in five man content. The Catalyst became available later than it should have, but it largely solves a lot of the issues with collecting tier. Between that and being able to run dungeons for it, I think acquiring tier sets now is easier than it has ever been.

That said, I think Blizzard misunderstood a lot of the community when they asked for class sets back. While I'm sure there are some people wanted tier bonuses, I know what many of us wanted was actually having class-specific appearances rather than one look for all shared armor classes. I know I really missed being able to get unique "sets" for each of my main classes, but I definitely did not miss power being tied to it.

I don't think tier sets is worse than shit like AP grinds, but as a general rule, I'm not a big fan of borrowed power of any type.

[Biomega]

I wouldn't say it's WORSE, but tier is pretty damn toxic.

People are just nostalgia-blind and go OMG TIEEEERRRR!!!!!!111 foaming wildly at the mouth.

I'll keep repeating it: just remove tier from drops, and instead make it Catalyst only, open from week 1. You still get drops to turn into tier, and PvP and M+ people don't feel like it's raid or bend over. And no more 325305893 split runs week 1 hoping to fish for tier in normal mode and shit like that.

[Neuroticaine]

I'll keep repeating it: just remove tier from drops, and instead make it Catalyst only, open from week 1. You still get drops to turn into tier, and PvP and M+ people don't feel like it's raid or bend over. And no more 325305893 split runs week 1 hoping to fish for tier in normal mode and shit like that.

Not opposed to this idea actually.

tier has become a bit too powerful. It was better when it was just oh 5% increased damage/healing on X ability. Still, I'd much rather have this evil than a system that punishes you for literally any time spent playing the game NOT playing a "main," which is the gameplay that borrowed power systems cultivated.

[netherflame]

My issue with tier sets is that Blizzard punishes you for trying to combo different tier set effects together and deactivates the bonuses of old tier sets, so character customization when it comes to your equipment is nonexistent. Blizzard forces you to use the latest tier set whether you like its effects and how it changes your gameplay or not.

There are very very very good reasons for this, you must be new.

[Otaka]

at least "borrowed power" systems were expansion long... you knew what you were getting into during beta and how your class was going to look mechanics-wise for the next 2-3 years.
tier sets? who the fuck knows... maybe you end up with a passive, maybe you end up with something that completely changes your rotation and feel of your class. and that happens 2-4 times per expansion.
and it completely locks out gear choices and secondaries selection for 4-6 slots. and it's horribly RNG dependent. and it actively punishes non-raiders compared to raiders in terms of timing and gate-keeping.

i guess ultimately that's why the general vibe on MMO-C is accepting of tier sets - the player community here seems to be largely raidlogger types who don't seem to give a single shit about the state of the game overall so long as they never, EVER have to set foot outside of a raid instance to be numerically superior to everyone else.

- - - Updated - - -


wait, what?

tier sets are literally redesigned 2-4 times per expansion and have all the same tuning and mechanics issues as any expansion themed systems, and get "yeeted" even MORE often than the "borrowed power" systems.
the only difference is that they disproportionately punish non-raiders more than raiders, which i guess is why the MMO-C l33t community loves them so much.

tier sets are in every single measurable way almost infinitely worse than expansion systems, and yet they are generally viewed fondly by a certain segment of posters who play WoW only to raidlog.
gee, wonder why that is.

Thats the literal issue with borrowed power... meanwhile tier sets will always remain as transmog, even after the expansion has ended.

So no they dont get yeeted as often since they last as transmog forever.

But this is generally the issue with WoW now... you are playing the latest patch only so thats why the gear from earlier raids gets ditched.

Classic almost didnt have this issue since the tier bonuses were very valuable so people ended up using them longer as a result, we should go back to that, eh?

Its ironic how WoW is one of the longest standing mmo's yet it has the most shallow content due to how the latest patch outshines everything prior to it, even the previous patch becomes pointless since they implement catch up-gear to skip it. The devs keep digging themselves in a hole everytime by making a single patch the most relevant so then the content gets consumed much faster and thats why we keep having looong content droughs.

Itemlevel needs to be kept much closer among raid tiers so earlier content doesnt become immediately outdated, and tier sets can be used based on their bonuses rather than raw stats. Which would increase the amount of viable builds and playstyles.

[Glorious Leader]

Thats the literal issue with borrowed power... meanwhile tier sets will always remain as transmog, even after the expansion has ended.

.

The legion weapons were also around as transmog. The problem isn't bowered power its blizzards inability to actually flesh those systems out post legion. Who gives a shit about a necklace..

[Malkiah]

Thats the literal issue with borrowed power... meanwhile tier sets will always remain as transmog, even after the expansion has ended.
So no they dont get yeeted as often since they last as transmog forever.

i mean i see what you're saying, but respectfully i think the reasoning here is flawed because you're comparing apples and oranges.
a transmog set is one thing, a system that alters the balance and play of your spec within a given period of time is another thing entirely.

i'll agree with you that in terms of transmog, that technically tier sets last forever, but that's... entirely not even remotely the point at contention here.

But this is generally the issue with WoW now... you are playing the latest patch only so thats why the gear from earlier raids gets ditched.

Classic almost didnt have this issue since the tier bonuses were very valuable so people ended up using them longer as a result, we should go back to that, eh?

i mean technically yes, but that's generally the issue with literally any game that has ongoing content.
i'll totally agree that mudflation is a huge problem in wow and that the dev team has collectively shit its pants so hard it's become generational at this point with regards to power bloat, but the core issue is simply inherent to the nature of an going updated game world.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't think tier sets is worse than shit like AP grinds, but as a general rule, I'm not a big fan of borrowed power of any type.

two quick things:
1. AP grind did not exist except in the hallucinations of a limited number of posters who use this shared delusion of the past as a justification for hating content that didn't cater exclusively to raiders.

2. i respect your position and way you engage with the game, and i say this only to provide evidence of a prevailing counter-opinion: i basically made the transmog sets i liked for my alts in WOTLK and haven't changed their look since then.
i consider any new piece of gear to be nothing but a gold sink, when viewed on a cosmetic level - as far as i'm concerned, my gameplay would be improved if trasmog was changed to be be slot specific and anything you equip just looks like that, and nothing ever displayed on your character based on the armor piece's art ever again.

[Nachtigal]

Please, y’all baddies NEED borrowed power. Borrowed power is the scapegoat to avoiding the truth: you’re just bad at the game. More often than not, people I run into severely underperforming love to blame their performance on their lack of the newest flavor of whatever borrowed power exists. No matter what it’s always “yeah I’m playing bad because Blizzard did -“

Just chill. If bosses are dying and people are pressing you about your DPS, you’re in the wrong guild. If nobody’s pressing you, and you just feel bad your performance sucks.. Relax, and keep trying. This game is a learning experience. You can’t learn if you’re never admitting you’re wrong.

[Utrrabbit]

Hot take: you are wrong

/thread.

[arandomuser]

Hot take: you are wrong

/thread.

no that would just be the general consensus. i accept that, just giving an alternate opinion,

- - - Updated - - -

Please, y’all baddies NEED borrowed power. Borrowed power is the scapegoat to avoiding the truth: you’re just bad at the game. More often than not, people I run into severely underperforming love to blame their performance on their lack of the newest flavor of whatever borrowed power exists. No matter what it’s always “yeah I’m playing bad because Blizzard did -“

Just chill. If bosses are dying and people are pressing you about your DPS, you’re in the wrong guild. If nobody’s pressing you, and you just feel bad your performance sucks.. Relax, and keep trying. This game is a learning experience. You can’t learn if you’re never admitting you’re wrong.

yes systems have always been a soft nerf to content-the game would be bland without them at all, i just think the current iteration isnt much better than previous iterations that got hated on until they were removed entirely. the whole idea is working towards X increases your power and makes the game a bit easier over time ( gear does this over time anyways?), nobody really has a problem with that, in fact thats kind of the whole premise of RPGs, you are kind of like projecting that people who want systems to be more enjoyable to engage with are just coping about dps when we arent lol

[Piando]

I like tier for the fact that they have the ability to mix up the way you play every couple of months (unfirtunately my current tier is mostly passive). Between raids, catalyst and weekly chest you're bound to get 4 set eventually, if you want it. I agree that it locks you into a couple of pieces and I don't like that myself. I'd prefer having a 4 set with at least 6 slots to choose from.

[Swnem]

They aren't and they are only an inconvenience cause Blizz takes to long to get the catalyst in.

What is worst is group loot.

[Nzx]

I'm not a big fan of borrowed power of any type.

Zzzzzzz I hate this idea. Tier sets are literally what keeps the game interesting intra-expansion. If they don't exist, I'm just going to reroll a new class every patch because playing the same rotation for 1.5 years is boring. Tier sets influence your priority, your talent choices, your focus on ST or cleave or AoE, your damage/healing breakdown, etc etc etc. Sometimes you get a passive buff that changes nothing, which should be perfect for people who don't like 'borrowed power', so surely none of you will complain about that. Then, at the end of an expansion, the best tier bonuses get rolled up into talents/base class passives, and that's how your class grows.