SPOILERS Aethas STILL trying to get in Jaina's good graces.

[Varodoc]

I will have to re read lords of the clan, but they enslaved as I mentioned others

Wowpedia states that Lord of Clans takes place exclusively in the region of Lordaeron.

Last I checked, aren't most of the former inhabitants of Lordaeron part of the Horde?

And as I said, Centaurs only existed in Kalimdor and Dragon Isles, so it's impossible that they were enslaved by humans.

Night elf embrace magic anyway?

No? Arcane magic and Life magic are absolutely not the same thing. Arcane magic is what the Highborne used and it attracted Sargeras to Azeroth, thus starting the War of the Ancients in the first place. Life magic is the magic used by Malfurion and the druids and belongs to a completely different Cosmic field.

We have an entire chart describing in detail how each magic force is different from one another, so you can't equate Arcane magic to Life magic.

The matter is simple. The decree is that Arcane magic was banned [since it was the cause of the War of the Ancients in the first place]. Dath'remar and co. defied the decree, so they were banished. It's simple.

It's not OK to burn the tree as it's not ok to nuke, enclave, exile people.

The Burning of Teldrassil is, obviously, a far worse act than the banishment of Dath'remar, and I do hope you weren't trying to compare Malfurion's actions to Sylvanas'.

Regardless, Tyrande, Maiev, and the Kaldorei saved Kael'thas and the Blood elves from destruction at the hands of the Scourge. Thus, the Blood elves are no longer allowed to hold a grudge against the Night elves; because, without Tyrande and her forces, they would have all been slaughtered by the Scourge in Silverpine.

[steelballfc]

No? Arcane magic and Life magic are absolutely not the same thing. Arcane magic is what the Highborne used and it attracted Sargeras to Azeroth, thus starting the War of the Ancients in the first place. Life magic is the magic used by Malfurion and the druids and belongs to a completely different Cosmic field.

We have an entire chart describing in detail how each magic force is different from one another, so you can't equate Arcane magic to Life magic.

The matter is simple. The decree is that Arcane magic was banned [since it was the cause of the War of the Ancients in the first place]. Dath'remar and co. defied the decree, so they were banished. It's simple.

Night elf can be mage and use arcane magic since 2017' this rule has been revoked

The Burning of Teldrassil is, obviously, a far worse act than the banishment of Dath'remar, and I do hope you weren't trying to compare Malfurion's actions to Sylvanas'.

I was comparing the Burning of the tree with human nukes Trolls.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Night elf embrace magic anyway?which make them hypocrite.

If you mean magic in general then they wouldn’t be hypocrites as not all magic is the same, if you mean letting the high Bourne back into there ranks in cata then even then not really as arcane was banned as they feared it would bring back the legion which did happen in wc 1-3 making the ban unneeded past that point meaning they could reevaluate there old rules.

[Varodoc]

Night elf can be mage and use arcane magic since 2017' this rule has been revoked

There's an entire book about that (Wolfheart). The reunification of Darnassus and the Highborne didn't just happen out of nowhere.

I was comparing the Burning of the tree with human nukes Trolls.

Comparing nuking a civilian target (it is explicitly stated that military forces were no longer in Teldrassil so there were only civilians there) to an army is flawed.

Just like accusing only the Alliance is flawed.

Why haven't you replied to this point?

The Alliance and the Blood elves and Forsaken (aka the descendants of the Quel'dorei and Arathor) should probably apologize to the Amani, true.

[steelballfc]

Comparing nuking a civilian target (it is explicitly stated that military forces were no longer in Teldrassil so there were only civilians there) to an army is flawed.

they nuked entire villages and town, trolls lived there, that's their land not the humans nor dwarfs or high/blood elf's.

Just like accusing only the Alliance is flawed

i have not accused the alliance to be the only ones to commit war crime, but you assume my opinion and thoughts before hand, please don't do that.

you seem to be talking to either number of people, which already form your opinion before hand about me.

Why haven't you replied to this point?

because technically they should apologize ( blood elf's and forsaken ) , but if i elaborate on that point our conversation will go on for no end.

[Varodoc]

they nuked entire villages and town, trolls lived there, that's their land not the humans nor dwarfs or high/blood elf's.

That's complete headcanon, Chronicles states that the fire magic nuke was used only once, at the end of the conflict, against the Amani army in the final battle near Alterac Mountains.

Delaryn stated that only innocents remained in Teldrassil, so Sylvanas nuked an entire kingdom full of civilians and without any combatant. Meanwhile, Arathor-Quel'Thalas alliance nuked an army of combatants.

Nuking an army in a battlefield is obviously less morally reprehensible than nuking a city full of civilians.

You're right about one thing. That land WAS property of the Amani via right of conquest. Until they lost it to Thalassian conquest. That's fair. And perhaps it should serve as a reminder that the Amani didn't originate from that land either. They took that land via conquest from N'Zoth's forces at the end of the Aqir-Troll War (the land that would become Quel'Thalas used to be controlled by N'Zoth's empire).

Why is it okay for the trolls to steal lands via right of conquest, but not okay for the humans and elves to do it to the trolls?

[steelballfc]

Why is it okay for the trolls to steal lands via right of conquest, but not okay for the humans and elves to do it to the trolls?

N'zoth is Alien old-god who needed to be banished, there land were not claimed, by any race as far as i know, the trolls were the first to inhabit the lands.

[Varodoc]

N'zoth is Alien old-god who needed to be banished, there land were not claimed, by any race as far as i know, the trolls were the first to inhabit the lands.

Actually those lands belonged to the Elementals, so if we want to be fair, the Amani should have dismantled everything and given their forest back to the Elemental lords.

[Darth-Piekus]

Actually Nzoth and the Old Gods claimed the land they were and called it Black Empire so technically after the Elementals they took that land.

[Varodoc]

Actually Nzoth and the Old Gods claimed the land they were and called it Black Empire so technically after the Elementals they took that land.

I already brought up the Black Empire; and, to be fair, you can argue that the Black Empire had no rights to those lands, due to the Old Gods being aliens who don't belong on Azeroth. The poster in question argued this, and I accepted it.

Ofc, by saying that the Old Gods have no rights to any region on Azeroth, you're also saying that the orcs have no rights to Durotar, since they, too, are alien creatures.

Nevertheless, I accepted the argument that the Old Gods have no rights to Quel'Thalas, due to being aliens. So, this just leaves us with the Elemental lords, who are the purest living form on Azeroth, and are far more ancient and primordial than any mortal creature.

So TL;DR, the idea that trolls are somehow special, that they have privileged rights, is pure bias and nothing more.

The Amani had rights to Quel'Thalas, until they lost those rights when they got conquered by the Quel'dorei. Just like the Elemental lords lost their rights when they got conquered by the Old Gods.

You don't see people say that the Amani should fuck off because Zul Aman belonged to the Elemental lords, so why are a few guys here acting like the Quel'dorei don't have any rights to Quel'Thalas?

[mickybrighteyes]

Jaina Proudmoore saved the world when she led the assault on Azshara's Eternal Palace and thwarted her plans. The world of Azeroth would not have been able to defeat N'Zoth if he had the full might of Azshara and her forces under his command.

It is only natural that Aethas would look up to and admire Jaina.

for someone who repeatedly chimes in about how people shouldn't forgive murderous warmongers... it's amusing to see you chime in about how someone victimized by a murderous warmonger should be admiring their attacker.

[Varodoc]

for someone who repeatedly chimes in about how people shouldn't forgive murderous warmongers... it's amusing to see you chime in about how someone victimized by a murderous warmonger should be admiring their attacker.

Jaina helped save Azeroth from destruction when she spearheaded the final assault on Azshara and the Naga army. Though N'Zoth freed, the bulk of the Naga army, and Azshara's strongest minions, were destroyed. The world of Azeroth would not have survived if N'Zoth had control over the full might of the Naga army as well as Azshara's strongest minions (the bosses of Eternal Palace raid).

Jaina helped save Azeroth, thus Aethas should respect and admire her. Offering her a gift is the bare minimum. Especially after his flop performance in the Purge of Dalaran, when he was offered an easy way out by Jaina herself, but foolishly and stupidly refused Jaina's ultimatum, dooming his kin to either fight and die, or surrender and be brought unarmed to the Violet Hold by a merciful Jaina.

I don't see anything wrong with the storyline Blizzard has written for Aethas. He messed up in the past with his stupidity and his selfishness, he has realized his mistakes, and he will try to fix the mess he made, by earning Jaina's forgiveness with a special gift. Jaina, being a war hero who saved Azeroth while Aethas was afk doing nothing, is entitled to and deserving of Aethas' apologies and gift... which is why Aethas will apologize to Jaina with a gift in the next patch.

[Raisei]

N'zoth is Alien old-god who needed to be banished, there land were not claimed, by any race as far as i know, the trolls were the first to inhabit the lands.

So you are saying that conquering aliens do not have any rights to hold land and it is okay to take it from them?

Could we have the keys to Orgrimmar then? Cause the Black Empire had no more or less right to existence then the invading Orc Horde.

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for someone who repeatedly chimes in about how people shouldn't forgive murderous warmongers... it's amusing to see you chime in about how someone victimized by a murderous warmonger should be admiring their attacker.

Always this nonesense. Horde characters slaughter civilians left and right, in the hundreds and thousands, but if an Alliance character so far as sheds a single drop of blood they are directly on the same level.

Wishful thinking and nothing more. You chose to play the evil faction in this game, get used to it already.

[Grazrug]

If anyone should apologize it is Jaina. Considering Aethas only wrongdoing was to look other way. But since that scene was never implemented it is not even canon.
Fanlyr Silverthorn was never aligned to the Sunreavers. But instead Aethas shows once again why he is unfit to be a leader. Hathorel should replace him.

[Raisei]

If anyone should apologize it is Jaina. Considering Aethas only wrongdoing was to look other way. But since that scene was never implemented it is not even canon.
Fanlyr Silverthorn was never aligned to the Sunreavers. But instead Aethas shows once again why he is unfit to be a leader. Hathorel should replace him.

I will pass on the message. Well, if I find a functioning mail box in the crater that is Theramore. Maybe she is still in Brennadan where we met before... oh...that is a lot of corpses... but maybe if I send it to Teldrassil Tyrande can pass it on... woops that won't work either.

I know I am talking to a wall here, but whatever:

Once the Horde has apologized and atoned for even a single of the thousands of lifes that were lost in their rampages over the decades we can begin to consider having Jaina apologize for the 10 Belfs that died because of people acting against her wishes.

Still waiting for that Banshee head that Thrall promised. When do you think we can reckon with the delivery?

[BrokenRavens]

This alliance vs horde conversation is making my head hurt.

The short answer is “Any thing alliance does, including slavery of other races, justified.”

“Everything horde does is bad and needs to be punished and the horde needs to constantly apologize..”

It’s laughable.

Is this real? Is this the actual lore as intended? One half of the player base must always be subjected to apologizing to the other half for the act of clicking the red button at character creation?

Is this healthy for the player base?

The writers at Blizzard are awful, seriously there are so many better mmos out there with much better writing.

Edit: ok I had to keep going.

Are you telling me that a bunch of writers got together and thought. “Hey, you know what would be cool? To mentally punish half the player base with the lore. What do you think?”

“Brilliant! Why have no other mmos thought of this? High fives all around!”

[Grazrug]

I will pass on the message. Well, if I find a functioning mail box in the crater that is Theramore. Maybe she is still in Brennadan where we met before... oh...that is a lot of corpses... but maybe if I send it to Teldrassil Tyrande can pass it on... woops that won't work either.

I know I am talking to a wall here, but whatever:

Once the Horde has apologized and atoned for even a single of the thousands of lifes that were lost in their rampages over the decades we can begin to consider having Jaina apologize for the 10 Belfs that died because of people acting against her wishes.

Still waiting for that Banshee head that Thrall promised. When do you think we can reckon with the delivery?

This is about Aethas. Not the fourth war. And in that regard Jaina acted on impulse without evidence. Aethas was always hated by the blood elf community but Blizzard makes it very easy that he easily surpasses even Baine as the most disliked character.

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This alliance vs horde conversation is making my head hurt.

The short answer is “Any thing alliance does, including slavery of other races, justified.”

“Everything horde does is bad and needs to be punished and the horde needs to constantly apologize..”

It’s laughable.

Is this real? Is this the actual lore as intended? One half of the player base must always be subjected to apologizing to the other half for the act of clicking the red button at character creation?

Is this healthy for the player base?

The writers at Blizzard are awful, seriously there are so many better mmos out there with much better writing.

Sadly this is the quality the forum sank to. I usually stay on the official forum.

[Shadowferal]

This alliance vs horde conversation is making my head hurt. The short answer is “Any thing alliance does, including slavery of other races, justified.” “Everything horde does is bad and needs to be punished and the horde needs to constantly apologize..” It’s laughable. Is this real? Is this the actual lore as intended? One half of the player base must always be subjected to apologizing to the other half for the act of clicking the red button at character creation? Is this healthy for the player base? The writers at Blizzard are awful, seriously there are so many better mmos out there with much better writing.

Horde needs to accept the evil...

[Grazrug]

Andorhal was a fair battle. The alliance lost once Sylvanas removed Koltira. That is not a war crime.

[Aucald]

Every thread doesn't need to become an Alliance vs. Horde free-for-all, let's pivot back to the actual topic at hand concerning Aethas and Jaina attempting to reconcile and drop the unrelated faction conflict infighting.