m+ tuning doesnt dissapoint

[youswas]

hi it's me mmo-champ user. give me 415 ilvl gear for free please i don't want to have to press my buttons. everyone else agrees with me 100% for sure.

[sponge5307]

thats only if you assume that you make a group of really good players.

reality of game is that most of people in guilds are .... bad ... very bad at m+ . unless you are in very hardcore mythic raiding guild you are lucky if you have even enough people for 1 set up team good enough for pushing.

that is also a reason why so many people are effectively forced to pug. because people in their guild are just not good enough for keys like +15-18 at this point in season

by end of season when everyone will be 415 + then sure ofc they will be ok for +15 . but now with 400 itlv ? yeah just ...no.

Yea you forgot to add the class/spec matters a lot. You get take a prot warrior in vs guardian druid. And the prot warrior will be much easier to tank the mobs so even if a mistake is made is not so punishing. Or you take a DH who have good AoE damage and lots of stuns/interrupt Vs a fury warrior (good damage but not utilities) or a SV hunter who have no damage, harder to play and no utilities. Your group is going to be much better off with the DH.

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No, people don't put too much emphasis on r.io, you (and many others) just do not understand how it works. This not-understanding is actually what undermines r.ios usefulness.

Just because the meaning of 2100 r.io score is a function of time, does not make it meaningless

Of course, r.io and ilvl meanings move with time. 2100 in week 2 was decent, but if you invite a 2100 player now, they maybe knows boss mechanics, but almost certainly has no clue about trash mechanics. The misinformation i see people spreading when I do alt keys even in 16/17/18s right now. Blizzard really needs to improve their telegraphing of abilities. Especially if you are newer to m+, you really rely on color-coded nameplates and enemy cast bars to even filter out whats going on.

Yup putting players in the hamster wheel and pit them against one another that's blizzard way to distract players from the lack of content they have in WoW.

[kamuimac]

How the f*ck do you survive 2nd and 3rd boss in Nokhud (meaning your healer is good enough for it), but have problems with the last boss? Last boss is literally the easiest boss in the place....

depends on group and healer. last boss can be very messy and long fight on tyranical if groups dps is not great.

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Yup putting players in the hamster wheel and pit them against one another that's blizzard way to distract players from the lack of content they have in WoW.

thats only if people are unrealistic about level they play on .

lets say someone is just raiding normal and suddenly he goes into m+ gets boost to like +10-12 key (easily doable by people farming particualr gear / vp ) and then they hit crazy wall and think that wow is toxic because people canot realistialy boost them anymore

instead spending a week or 2 downgraidng key - farming 9-10 for score and gear they want to push higher and higher because thats what lower difficulties tought them - that eventually they will get free boost.

im raising the gear cap from 15 to 20 was a collosal mistake because it spread playerbase way to much

imo game would benefit a lot from like cutting difficulty levels in m+ instead adding more of them .

gear should be capped at +10 even if it was gear below mythic raiding gear. and anything above 10 including KSM should be just for pushers.

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Of course, r.io and ilvl meanings move with time. 2100 in week 2 was decent, but if you invite a 2100 player now, they maybe knows boss mechanics, but almost certainly has no clue about trash mechanics. The misinformation i see people spreading when I do alt keys even in 16/17/18s right now. Blizzard really needs to improve their telegraphing of abilities. Especially if you are newer to m+, you really rely on color-coded nameplates and enemy cast bars to even filter out whats going on.

what blizz needs to do is cut out 3/4 of mechancis from trash . look at SBG - trash there is meaningfull it can easily wipe you if you ignore deadly mechanics on fortified but it has like 1/10 of mechanics and like 1/4 number of trash from NO.

this is how blizz should design m+

[Nite92]

what blizz needs to do is cut out 3/4 of mechancis from trash . look at SBG - trash there is meaningfull it can easily wipe you if you ignore deadly mechanics on fortified but it has like 1/10 of mechanics and like 1/4 number of trash from NO.

this is how blizz should design m+

There is a middle ground between SBG and Nokhud. SBG is only "fun" because it is an outlier. If every key were as easy, it would be boring.

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Yup putting players in the hamster wheel and pit them against one another that's blizzard way to distract players from the lack of content they have in WoW.

Progressing an endgame system is a hamster wheel?
You can also just play with a premade, you know?

[brynhildrprot]

My mate is currently capable of healing +20s on a 385 evoker.

And before that I was helping him with +18s when he was in 340ilvl gear and I offhealed as prot paladin, and we timed and ++'d keys with random pugs.

If an evoker with 170k hp can live through an Algethar Academy +18 without dying,so can you!

https://raider.io/characters/eu/silvermoon/Larnedragosa

He asked me to not offheal too much on the +20, and legit didnt even need to help much 380 is enough to heal +20s, and he was doing 10-15k dps, more than I see a lot of pug evokers in 400-410.

[tomten]

My mate is currently capable of healing +20s on a 385 evoker.

And before that I was helping him with +18s when he was in 340ilvl gear and I offhealed as prot paladin, and we timed and ++'d keys with random pugs.

If an evoker with 170k hp can live through an Algethar Academy +18 without dying,so can you!

https://raider.io/characters/eu/silvermoon/Larnedragosa

He asked me to not offheal too much on the +20, and legit didnt even need to help much 380 is enough to heal +20s, and he was doing 10-15k dps, more than I see a lot of pug evokers in 400-410.

Not impressive at all tbh.
Now try that with 393 ilvl dps and not 3x 414 LOL...

Thats like saying, you can get boosted at 370 ilvl, if I can get boosted? So can you.
Ok? Cool story?

[Soikona]

I learned a lot from M+. Primarily, I learned WoW is no longer a game for me.

Yea, I am on the same boat. I always thought it was borrowed power I had the problem with, but it’s having to do keys to be a competent raider.

[Osmeric]

Yea, I am on the same boat. I always thought it was borrowed power I had the problem with, but it’s having to do keys to be a competent raider.

Careful, potis is going say you're posting "weird shit". But thanks for showing that what I posted was not only relevant but apparently useful to you.

[brynhildrprot]

Not impressive at all tbh.
Now try that with 393 ilvl dps and not 3x 414 LOL...

Thats like saying, you can get boosted at 370 ilvl, if I can get boosted? So can you.
Ok? Cool story?

People were doing 20s in mid 390ilvl gear and 2 set tho.

You do realize you still need to heal those tyrannical bosses yea? And live them with 170k hp how is that not impresive cd management.

We Got him to 390 and he is fully capable of healing +20s and outdpsing pug evokers 20 ilvls higher than him.

I think you just undervalue just how important it is to know what ur doing. Gear carries a bit more weight for dps, but tanks and healers can do magic even in really low gear if they are experienced.

[jeezusisacasual]

People were doing 20s in mid 390ilvl gear and 2 set tho.

You do realize you still need to heal those tyrannical bosses yea? And live them with 170k hp how is that not impresive cd management.

We Got him to 390 and he is fully capable of healing +20s and outdpsing pug evokers 20 ilvls higher than him.

I think you just undervalue just how important it is to know what ur doing. Gear carries a bit more weight for dps, but tanks and healers can do magic even in really low gear if they are experienced.

That is the exception not the rule and while they can do that it should not become the standard and tell your mate they won at WoW and i hope they value that prize that should help those below them to become better players otherwise its rather pointless.

[Woobels]

People were doing 20s in mid 390ilvl gear and 2 set tho.

You do realize you still need to heal those tyrannical bosses yea? And live them with 170k hp how is that not impresive cd management.

We Got him to 390 and he is fully capable of healing +20s and outdpsing pug evokers 20 ilvls higher than him.

I think you just undervalue just how important it is to know what ur doing. Gear carries a bit more weight for dps, but tanks and healers can do magic even in really low gear if they are experienced.

You have a serious lack of perspective.

[crusadernero]

Yea, I am on the same boat. I always thought it was borrowed power I had the problem with, but it’s having to do keys to be a competent raider.

You really dont have to grind alot of m+ to be a competent raider. Well, unless you are doing cutting edge mythic raiding. Which you aint, because if you were, you would be done with the raid by now.

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You don't need to raid for tier, even without the catalyst. None of my alts raid, they all have a 2pc or more before catalyst opened. Tier is certainly easier while raiding, but it drops at a high enough rate from the vault, far higher than the actual dungeon items so it's really not a raid only thing and tbh blizzard should just open the catalyst sooner next season cause it's also not even a big deal or that rare with how often it appears in the great vault.

I have 4 piece on my hunter. 3 from vault, one item from normal raid. Dont even need to use the catalyst lol. Got 2p on my prot paladin too. So 5 tier items across two characters only from the vault. have they increased the chance to get tier gear by alot from vault or something?

[Anzen]

My mate is currently capable of healing +20s on a 385 evoker.

And before that I was helping him with +18s when he was in 340ilvl gear and I offhealed as prot paladin, and we timed and ++'d keys with random pugs.

If an evoker with 170k hp can live through an Algethar Academy +18 without dying,so can you!

https://raider.io/characters/eu/silvermoon/Larnedragosa

He asked me to not offheal too much on the +20, and legit didnt even need to help much 380 is enough to heal +20s, and he was doing 10-15k dps, more than I see a lot of pug evokers in 400-410.

That's nothing, when I used to raid in a top guild during MoP, and people re-rolled, we'd carry their alts through all of SoO heroic (now known as mythic) before most guilds had even seen garrosh.

If warlockisbalancedtopkek could clear endgame bosses in greens, anyone can! It's just l2p.

As respectfully as possible, I can't imagine that a ~3.1k IO tank at 417 ilvl (with a similar group) needs all that much healing.

[crusadernero]

Also, please notice that difficulty in WoW is “escalated” by the fact that you need a party to engage difficult content. This is what irritate me most.

A whole lot of casual players do like difficult content but do also like to be on their own when trying to complete it. Being ssf means you can progress at your own pace and without any schedule (that’s exactly how playing a videogame should be played).

M+ is perfect for people that dont want to follow a schedule. No matter the time of day, theres m+ grps to join. No matter the time of day, you can inv ppl to your m+ key runs. M+ can be done all day, everyday, how many times you want. Unlike raids, that have a weekly lockout for each boss.

You only need 4 others, and to be perfectly honest, once you start doing higher keys theres most of the time decent enough players that will make the run smooth. Are there toxic players? Sure. Are there people that does mistake? ofc, we are all humans, we do mistakes.

Casual players dont want challenging content. They want to be rewarded for time spent ingame. If casual players wants challenges, there would be much more of it and they would engage in it. Remember the outcry when mage tower was released? So much moaning about the difficulty. until it got nerfed(cause of outgearing mostly late in legion) and everyone could do it.

[Raidoser]

Remember the outcry when mage tower was released? So much moaning about the difficulty. until it got nerfed(cause of outgearing mostly late in legion) and everyone could do it.

I remember an outcry because the mage tower was imbalanced (some bug too), example : "Thwarting the twin" a challenge made for kiting and burst (so wtf was affliction and shadow on that challenge ?) because as a warlock if you didn't overgear it or be lucky to have the sacrolash legendary (that you couldn't target, so 100% RNG to loot it) you would never be able to do it, meanwhile as frost mage or MM hunter doing it was so easy i did it with alt with catch up gear (before the nerf)
Even more when i saw that without sacrolash i couldn't do it i decided to try the challenge for destruction warlock (feltotem fall) and did it in two try while having gear for affliction, a low ilvl artifact and not having played the spec for 3 expansions...
I will also talk about the demonology warlock challenge (The god queen fury) who asked you to have an interrupt but you didn't as demonology since to be able to dps you needed the felguard.

also by elitist standard i was a filthy casual since i stopped raiding during Mop and did not spam M+ so no challenge tower was not difficult, it was stupid.

[Anzen]

Remember the outcry when mage tower was released? So much moaning about the difficulty. until it got nerfed(cause of outgearing mostly late in legion) and everyone could do it.

I remember an outcry because the mage tower was imbalanced (some bug too), example : "Thwarting the twin" a challenge made for kiting and burst (so wtf was affliction and shadow on that challenge ?) because as a warlock if you didn't overgear it or be lucky to have the sacrolash legendary (that you couldn't target, so 100% RNG to loot it) you would never be able to do it, meanwhile as frost mage or MM hunter doing it was so easy i did it with alt with catch up gear (before the nerf)
Even more when i saw that without sacrolash i couldn't do it i decided to try the challenge for destruction warlock (feltotem fall) and did it in two try while having gear for affliction, a low ilvl artifact and not having played the spec for 3 expansions...
I will also talk about the demonology warlock challenge (The god queen fury) who asked you to have an interrupt but you didn't as demonology since to be able to dps you needed the felguard.

It was the same issue with the proving grounds in MoP.

I was raiding in a top 20 world guild at the time, I remember farming BiS proving grounds gear, endless reseting, min-mxing every single element of each wave, all to try and progress through the endless waves as an Elemental Shaman, but it was completely impossible to get into high waves.

Then one day I decide to alt tab to my destruction lock in random gear (certainly not optimized for proving grounds), waddle in and absolutely smashed my ele shamans best ever attempt first try just spamming rain of fire, conflagerate and chaos bolt.

So yeah, again it was probably just all hurrdurr "so much moaning about difficulty"

[Aurora]

Yea, I am on the same boat. I always thought it was borrowed power I had the problem with, but it’s having to do keys to be a competent raider.

I agree, it's been my main issue with the game for several expansions now. I've always been able to complete max reward keys and have been doing around 16-18 in dragonflight without any issue but I just don't enjoy any part of it. I don't like the repetitive nature, the timer aspect forcing a stressed anti-social vibe, the meta obsession from the community where everyone strives to play like bots using the same strategy in the same composition as everyone else and the way dungeon tuning seems by design to waste any time and effort put into challenging aspects in early weeks since they'll all be significantly nerfed later.

Wrath Classic has been such a breath of fresh air for me since I can log in just to raid and can only get better gear for raiding by raiding. Doing the thing you enjoy to get better at the thing you enjoy and not feeling compelled to do some entirely unrelated mode to gear significantly faster is certainly nice.

[potis]

Casual players dont want challenging content. They want to be rewarded for time spent ingame. If casual players wants challenges, there would be much more of it and they would engage in it. Remember the outcry when mage tower was released? So much moaning about the difficulty. until it got nerfed(cause of outgearing mostly late in legion) and everyone could do it.

Its not exactly that, lets not use the word casual, its just self-proclaimed bads that abuse the meaning.

Its a mix of new age gamers that were taught two things.

"Choose my game and get XX rewards for time spent, or throw $ and skip ahead, or throw less $ and progress faster with this capsule of 200% experience for 3 hours!" in a form of battle passes or mobile games were you throw $ and the items come, some simply understand how the game works and get better..and there is a very big majority that doesnt get it as to why they pay 15$ and then have to actually play themselves.

Do note that the above and the 15$ sub, keeps a major wave of terrible human beings and trashy players out of WoW, thankfully.

And washed up players that think they were decent at some point because they raided once or twice at some irrelevant raid level, claiming their life is too busy now..but they still want the gear, so the game must change to cater to them that they can dedicate XX time only or they will take their 15$ to a game that gives them that..Weirdly some people on here have been doing this for 6 years now..go figure.

[RahEndymion]

I'd consider myself properly and fully casual. I didn't even hit max to first week of Jan. I've spent more time fishing and questing in this xpac than anything else. I didn't even enter a dungeon while leveling, my casual guild has just transferred off realm and so the last 10 days I've had to pug m+.

I was absolutely dreading it. I remember early SL m+ being moderately challenging with poor gear.

Managed to +3 every key, ended on a 9 at +2 with the 11 in my bags for tonight. Gear now sitting at 370 but did most of my keys at 360.

Honestly, doesn't seem like you even need to read mechanics or know anything about the dungeons? I've managed to improvise my way through and it's all just common sense really.

Sure there's probably a steep curve around +16/17 (based on +20 being the new +15) but on average it seems vastly easier on a +9 DF key vs +9 SL key at same point in xpac.

It sounds more like OP isn't terribly familiar with the bell-curve at the start of an xpac.

[kamuimac]

I'd consider myself properly and fully casual. I didn't even hit max to first week of Jan. I've spent more time fishing and questing in this xpac than anything else. I didn't even enter a dungeon while leveling, my casual guild has just transferred off realm and so the last 10 days I've had to pug m+.

I was absolutely dreading it. I remember early SL m+ being moderately challenging with poor gear.

Managed to +3 every key, ended on a 9 at +2 with the 11 in my bags for tonight. Gear now sitting at 370 but did most of my keys at 360.

Honestly, doesn't seem like you even need to read mechanics or know anything about the dungeons? I've managed to improvise my way through and it's all just common sense really.

Sure there's probably a steep curve around +16/17 (based on +20 being the new +15) but on average it seems vastly easier on a +9 DF key vs +9 SL key at same point in xpac.

It sounds more like OP isn't terribly familiar with the bell-curve at the start of an xpac.

congrats on getting carried by more geared and experienced people.

it happens every time - people come in after N weeks and waves of nerfs and after other get super geared and then do strange flexes .

good for you . the same way i got my survival hunter which was in green zereth mortis gear up to +17 key in 1 evening .

you know how i did it ? i made my own group and let other full geared people carry me.

what i didint do is i didnt come here to flax my epen with "lol how easy stuff is" - its not when you do with whole team in gear like yours. then i bet you would get destroyed in that +9 of yours .