Another "I can't breath" death: Police Reform & Protests in the USA

[Fugus]

@Endus

I need you to do something for me please. Take your emotions, ball them up and throw them and damn trash on this issue. My emotions will be sitting in that same trashcan beside yours if it makes you feel any better. Think objectively.

I am not defending anyone getting murdered, let alone in broad daylight. You are saying that the officer meant to kill Floyd in broad daylight, on camera, with witnesses? No denying he killed the man and should be held accountable for it and that his actions were mean spirited and negligent as hell. But it killing the man I doubt was the intent unlike what this appears to be.

And in the hypothetical I gave, the slashes to the face are the only thing weird about it. But fine, you can ignore it. The 98 stab wounds is literally evidence right there. Most deals regarding business of any kind wouldn't result in 98 stab wounds, most would stop well before that as they would have been dead long before that. That amount of overkill would be a evidence that there was something more to it. That's the part I was trying to get you to understand but evidently you missed it.

And again, you jump back to institutional racism like its a magical catch all and there can not be any other complicating or contributing factors to go with it.

There is one piece of your post that actually is correct though,

With 5 officers, there's no need for any kicking or punching; one officer per limb, and a fifth to put cuffs on.

That's the only point you can definitely say you are correct on, the rest seems like an emotional mess to get to the point you want instead of what might actually be there.

As to why they beat him to death, institutional racism could definitely be a CONTRIBUTING FACTOR but not the entire thing short of him fighting back and giving them justification in their minds to take it further. If he did not fight back and they pull this, there is more than than just institutional racism, whether you want to look that deep or not.

I swear, been on this thread for years and recently its like I am watching you slowly become radicalized with how your takes have shifted from the logical to the emotional.

[DarkAmbient]

. . .
"Doing anything else" means being corrupt as fuuuuuck and defending your extrajudicial murder squad's actions. The only ethical response to these kinds of actions is prosecuting the officers. Any "thin blue line" bullshit is just an admission of corruption and malice. If your union tries to prevent charges coming down, your union and all your officers are an organized crime organization and should be federally treated as such.

I don't disagree. But it seems like for some it's institutional racism whether they hinder justice or deliver it swiftly. Of course, they could just stop murdering people, but apparently that's too much trouble.

Anyone else think releasing the video on a Friday evening when most are off work and in party mood is somewhat risky? Perhaps they wanted to make sure most of the shops were closed to minimise disruption to the local economy in the event of unrest, but it feels like they've chosen a time that's most likely to lead to the largest crowds.

[Endus]

@Endus

I need you to do something for me please. Take your emotions, ball them up and throw them and damn trash on this issue. My emotions will be sitting in that same trashcan beside yours if it makes you feel any better. Think objectively.

Really not sure what makes you think I'm not being objective.

I am not defending anyone getting murdered, let alone in broad daylight. You are saying that the officer meant to kill Floyd in broad daylight, on camera, with witnesses? No denying he killed the man and should be held accountable for it and that his actions were mean spirited and negligent as hell. But it killing the man I doubt was the intent unlike what this appears to be.

Yes. I'm saying Chauvin intended to kill Floyd. He was deliberately kneeling on his neck. He even adjusted his position several times to be sure it was in the right spot. He'd just gotten training to not do exactly that, for exactly the reason that it's potentially lethal, within the last year (I think it was just a couple months, but can't be arsed to check). None of this was about securing an arrest; Floyd was already subdued and cuffed.

I don't see how you can possibly believe it was an accident. Floyd was saying he couldn't breathe, and Chauvin didn't just ignore it, he acknowledged it and then didn't let up anyway.

There is absolutely no other possible reason to have choked Floyd like that.

And in the hypothetical I gave, the slashes to the face are the only thing weird about it. But fine, you can ignore it. The 98 stab wounds is literally evidence right there. Most deals regarding business of any kind wouldn't result in 98 stab wounds, most would stop well before that as they would have been dead long before that. That amount of overkill would be a evidence that there was something more to it. That's the part I was trying to get you to understand but evidently you missed it.

It's not that I "missed it", it's that you're imagining explanations that have no basis in the evidence. Maybe the dealer's fed up with the guy and wanted to send a message. You literally can't know the "why".

And again; it's a terrible hypothetical, because you're trying to draw comparisons to the Floyd killing, which was filmed from multiple angles in broad daylight with audio to match. We know exactly what went down. No speculation needed.

And again, you jump back to institutional racism like its a magical catch all and there can not be any other complicating or contributing factors to go with it.

Other complicating or contributing factors doesn't make institutional racism not a factor, dude. That's what "complicating or contributing" means.

I swear, been on this thread for years and recently its like I am watching you slowly become radicalized with how your takes have shifted from the logical to the emotional.

For pointing out that 5 officers beating a black man to death for funsies is the result of institutional racism? Much emotion. Such radical.

This thread goes back to the Chauvin killing in 2020. Here's my first post in the thread, #12 total, so about as early as you could hope;

Any cop in the area who didn't stop this fuck should be charged as an accessory.

If they don't turn on him and testify against him, they should additionally be charged with obstruction; this wouldn't normally apply, but frankly, cops working to keep a criminal from justice seems like it fits the bill.

Their senior staff should be on the hook for creating an environment where this could be allowed to happen; this isn't just one cop going too far in the heat of the moment.

Burn the entire department to the ground, metaphorically speaking. Any cop who does anything to try and defend and permit another cop to do this, they're as corrupt and criminal as the fuck they're protecting. This "thin blue line" garbage needs to stop; police officers should face far stricter scrutiny, face much higher burdens of proof (since we can presume they should be trained to safely restrain suspects, and thus we can't presume this was an accident), and they should be facing maximum sentences for crimes. And no "we can't put them in Gen Pop" bullshit. They face prison the same as anyone. That you can't control violence in your own prisons is its own separate "what the fuck" topic.

I've been this offended by police racism and brutality and the deep corruption that's ensured it's encultured into most police forces in the USA the whole time. I'd have to ask why the hell you aren't as offended? It doesn't take emotion. It just takes basic human empathy and a pretty minimal sense of ethics.

[Flarelaine]

I think the part where everyone is kicking him while he's on the floor means they couldn't find any plausible excuses.

Body cam records tend to disappear oh so conveniently. Or get lawyered over for months like in the Uvalde case. None of that here.

[Endus]

I don't disagree. But it seems like for some it's institutional racism whether they hinder justice or deliver it swiftly. Of course, they could just stop murdering people, but apparently that's too much trouble.

The problem is, the fact of institutional, systemic racism underlies all policing in the US, at this point. It's endemic, and it's deeply encultured into American policing, and exacerbated by things like "Warrior Training" which fosters a view that pits the police against the citizenry, as antagonists, rather than supporting citizens as protectors.

If you want to get away from that, step-by-step reform isn't ever going to get you there, nor is sacrificing individual officers like this when the circumstances are too egregious to cover up.

Anyone else think releasing the video on a Friday evening when most are off work and in party mood is somewhat risky? Perhaps they wanted to make sure most of the shops were closed to minimise disruption to the local economy in the event of unrest, but it feels like they've chosen a time that's most likely to lead to the largest crowds.

Honestly, probably more that it's after the workweek and people working in the downtown have a chance to GTFO before protests kick off.

[Edge-]

What I'll be curious about is if anyone recorded the events leading up to the deadly beating.

Because reportedly the videos start midway through after the incident began. Cops are already out there saying they've done nothing wrong with at least two posting bail - which $250-350K bail for this seems...low? but oh well.

Really hope some random passers by recorded that shit so we have an objective record and aren't just left to try to determine how much of the cops story of events is a lie (spoilers, probably all of it).

[Fugus]

@Endus

I see Chauvin as the kinda guy who would beat his kids till he breaks their bones from his own carelessness and then claims it was an accident even though he ignored their cries because he thought they were just being soft. Those guys exist and are more abundant then I care to imagine.

But, if you are saying that Chauvin intended to kill him, then that would put him in the same boat as this which would still be beyond JUST institutional racism it would go to the officer going beyond that.

And the hypothetical was just that, a hypothetical but I intentionally left evidence that there was more there than just "A drug deal gone bad" and even your own explanation proves my point. Them trying to send a message is still something more than just a deal gone bad. Which is my point.

Ok... stopping the replying point by point because I see where you miss what I am saying right here

Other complicating or contributing factors doesn't make institutional racism not a factor, dude. That's what "complicating or contributing" means.

I never said it wasn't a factor and repeatedly said that it very well could and likely is a factor. I just said that it isn't likely to be the only factor and yet the response I get is "Institutional Racism"......


So, we both agree that systemic racism is likely a factor. No disagreement there and there never was. Now, what are the other factors?


Not saying the US police system isn't fucked up, it is and it needs major changes but I wasn't talking about the overall system in this. I was talking about this specific instance. Systemic Racism is a huge part of it and needs to be fixed.... Now, what is the other contributing factors that made these officers go crazy on this person.

Did they have a history of violence and were just shuffled around the force like a pedophile making his rounds through the churches?
Did they have a prior history with this man and had personal issues with them?
Did they have something in their personal lives where they were already mentally breaking down?

Alright, Institutional Racism agreed, what else?

[unfilteredJW]

This got yikes quick.

[Edge-]

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...d/11134386002/

Attorney General Merrick Garland and FBI Director Christopher Wray called for any demonstrations to be conducted peacefully in advance of the video's planned disclosure expected to show a violent encounter involving five Memphis police officers and Tyre Nichols.

“I will tell you I was appalled,” Wray said, describing his reaction after viewing the video.

In which shit keeps pointing to, "This is Rodney King levels of bad."

I don't think I want to watch the video based on how bad it's sounding. I've seen enough of police killing people on camera and exhibiting a callous disregard for human life or suffering over the years, I don't need to see something like this to validate what I already know.

I'll stick with descriptions from others, because it seems like there's not going to be a ton of room for hyperbole with this.

[Cthulhu 2020]

While I agree with you in sentiment, this one doesn't appear to be one of those times, according to what Deus Mortis posted, all the officers were black.

So, I REALLY want to know what was the provocation on this one. Unless they all worked out to be like Clarence Thomas or something. Really wonder what the logic here was. Did they have personal issues with this guy prior, did they all do meth before hand and just got that worked up and lost it.

If flat out racism wasn't the factor here, what was and just how bad will this video be?

I think we've covered this in this thread before, but one's race as a cop doesn't necessarily mean one can't be racist against black people. No matter where it is, black citizens are pretty universally treated like shit by all cops. Black cops who have risen up using very loose hiring standards seem all the more ready to harm other black people.

But as others have said, the institution of police in the US is almost inherently racist due to deeply held racist beliefs against black people and even among black people, that they are somehow inferior to the rest of the US. Their neighborhoods are patrolled relentlessly while white low income neighborhoods filled with drug labs get almost no scrutiny. Just because other black cops perpetuate the racism doesn't mean it isn't racism.



Also, the mere fact that these 5 officers were fired so fast is all the more damning. Considering how all too often police will brutally murder a black person and get a month of paid leave before being reinstated, that they pushed these black officers out so fast to take the heat off themselves is both welcome but at the same time even more unsettling.

[Fugus]

I think we've covered this in this thread before, but one's race as a cop doesn't necessarily mean one can't be racist against black people. No matter where it is, black citizens are pretty universally treated like shit by all cops. Black cops who have risen up using very loose hiring standards seem all the more ready to harm other black people.

But as others have said, the institution of police in the US is almost inherently racist due to deeply held racist beliefs against black people and even among black people, that they are somehow inferior to the rest of the US. Their neighborhoods are patrolled relentlessly while white low income neighborhoods filled with drug labs get almost no scrutiny. Just because other black cops perpetuate the racism doesn't mean it isn't racism.



Also, the mere fact that these 5 officers were fired so fast is all the more damning. Considering how all too often police will brutally murder a black person and get a month of paid leave before being reinstated, that they pushed these black officers out so fast to take the heat off themselves is both welcome but at the same time even more unsettling.

Agreed, been discussed a bit before. I can completely agree with systemic racism being part of the issue with this event, my point was I doubted it was the entire reason for it. So basically boiled down to, "Systemic Racism is a factor in this, what are the other factors?".

But as another has pointed out, the fact that these 5 black officers were thrown under the bus so quickly could also be an example of systemic racism as well. If they weren't black officers, would they have been thrown out so quickly? Or is this so damning that even the most connected of officers been thrown out as a bridge too far? Or a combination of the two.

[jonnysensible]

damn they stomped him, stood him up punched him out then stomped him again.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Body cam footage is pretty brutal and damning. Police just taking their anger out on a cuffed, helpless man.

[Edge-]

I am super not watching this shit, will wait for a better description but it seems the cops were so determined to torture this man they pepper sprayed themselves.

[PACOX]

I am super not watching this shit, will wait for a better description but it seems the cops were so determined to torture this man they pepper sprayed themselves.

The disturbing part isn't necessarily the violence, its implied 'normalcy' of the video. The violence depicted is only about a degree more than what you'll see on say an episode of COPS and shit you see glorified in cop movies. What the video really shows is how normalized and by the book police brutality is and the consequences. They don't really do anything out of the norm, and that's the problem. No one in the video is particularly concerned or disturbed by their actions, they actually feel vindicated, like what they did was fine and okay, warranted.

Its more an indictment on the institution in general than this singular incident. Thankfully, they were charged, but it's damn near a miracle that they were.

Media coverage is going to be disgusting. You will either see people who already recognize the problem just adding another case to the stack of incidents of institutionalized injustice or affirmation of how the other side see no issue, any amount of remorse being that it happened to be well documented.

[Doctor Amadeus]

Wonder where Blue Lives Matter is on this eh?

That said, I think I am passed the point where people question police rather than complying with instructions until it's appropriate to ask questions. No you don't get to always demand right there and then what you are being arrested for or if you are to be arrested.

As for the officers, I really don't know what was going through there heads, but the suspect erratic behavior does constitute some of the force observed.

[jonnysensible]

Wonder where Blue Lives Matter is on this eh?

That said, I think I am passed the point where people question police rather than complying with instructions until it's appropriate to ask questions. No you don't get to always demand right there and then what you are being arrested for or if you are to be arrested.

As for the officers, I really don't know what was going through there heads, but the suspect erratic behavior does constitute some of the force observed.

really? They give him contrictorary orders all the time. 'LAY DOWN OR ILL TASE YOU' (hes already lying down). 'GIVE ME YOUR HANDS' (the officer has his hands while another kicks him in the head). They guy is trying to protect himself from kicks and punches.

those cops should be on the chair by tomorrow morning

[Paranoid Android]

Once more shows cop training and psychology. As with many videos, they don't descalate situations. Give multiple orders, to anyone makes a person intensify the situation.

So many videos such as this


Not watched but read where he kept stating about just going home. Cops not trained or mentally cannot and will not descalate.

[Doctor Amadeus]

really? They give him contrictorary orders all the time. 'LAY DOWN OR ILL TASE YOU' (hes already lying down). 'GIVE ME YOUR HANDS' (the officer has his hands while another kicks him in the head). They guy is trying to protect himself from kicks and punches.

those cops should be on the chair by tomorrow morning

Good Points I am still trying to get ahold of the entire video.

[Edge-]

The disturbing part isn't necessarily the violence, its implied 'normalcy' of the video. The violence depicted is only about a degree more than what you'll see on say an episode of COPS and shit you see glorified in cop movies. What the video really shows is how normalized and by the book police brutality is and the consequences. They don't really do anything out of the norm, and that's the problem. No one in the video is particularly concerned or disturbed by their actions, they actually feel vindicated, like what they did was fine and okay, warranted.

Its more an indictment on the institution in general than this singular incident. Thankfully, they were charged, but it's damn near a miracle that they were

I caught some of it autoplaying (from what appears to be security footage from across the street) and yeah...the casual violence and brutality even in that brief snippet was just...

Like, that's some "you've lost human decency and empathy" level shit. That's "you're a genuine psycho who doesn't value human life" shit.

Well beyond addressing all the immediate problems and charges, I wanna know how the fuck cops that can be that callous with regards to human life get through training and psych evals and shit and how locals are supposed to trust that there aren't other cops who place similar values on human life.