Leaving M+ group should give you DESERTER

[Anzen]

I don't really get how this is a point. You could say that about everything. "Nobody murders anybody without justification." That's true, doesn't say anything about the deed though.

Fancy jumping to murder to try and make some sort of point... I've said throughout that it's non-existent, it's actually one of the only things we agree on, yet you continuously bring it up as a point as if I don't agree?

The only reason the point was made was because others in his thread had suggested that players had left their 'for no reason'. I have been consistent that there is virtually always a reason and it's most likely that players don't understand it. You left this part out of the quote unsuprisingly.

Please just stfu raising this again, and again, and again when we agree. Players leave for a reason. We know. Move on.

It's fair enough, that you took it the wrong way. I worded it rather aggressively. What I mean to be saying is, that a lot of people don't want to be playing with someone who only thinks about their own goals. You kinda make my point with your SBG story. You're in there for concentrated primal focus. This will drop even if depleted (I'm pretty sure). So you're getting something out of it and you know that SBG is a joke and it will be probably timed in a timely fashion. This is the example of you being "not the villain". It even ended with you completing the run. So to you it would have been acceptable to leave a key that can stille easily be timed. I'm not sure what the "villain" in your mind would be. Someone coming to your house after the run and stabbing you?

I don't know if I should be alarmed at your repeated use of murder examples? To be honest, it just makes you look a bit daft spewing out ridiculous comparisons like this.

Regardless, it's an interesting tactic to vilify me for running M+'s with a purpose... you know, as opposed to the holier than thou beings whose sole objective in running M+ is to help others. It's also amusing to watch the mental gymnastics for you to warp 'so you stayed in the SBG run because you knew it would be timed' into "so it would have been acceptable (for you) to leave a key that can still easy be timed" - I have a team working overtime trying to figure out the connect. I generally only leave keys that look like they won't be timed, sorry. I know it works better for you if I'm leaving runs for fun or stabbing people or whatever nonsense you said.

It'sJust yesterday I did a key that was obviously depleted (DH and my fault). Instead of just leaving the DH and mage asked if everybody wants to finish the run (but they'd got nothing from it). We finished it. I'd completely understood a leave there, even if "only" 2 people wanted to leave. You don't have to point fingers. I'm not sure why you think that was the thing I wanted people to say.

Why is it not a suprise that you were the reason for a keys depletion, while you simultaneously argue here that there should be punishment for leavers. Add to that the blatant hypocrisy in saying "I'd completely understood a leave" while championing anti-leaver punishments on MMOC.

So is it about your boogie man who only puggs to troll people with his premade? This kind of person would get no upvotes (because you can't upvote your friends/guildies) but all the downvotes form people being trolled. So he would have a terrible rating. Compare that how it is now. There is nothing in place to stop them. They can do what they want.

Please show me there this sudden addition of "you can't upvote friends/guildies" came in - I can't see that you've ever mentioned it until this response. How exactly do you qualify who is a friend out of interest?

I would be stuck with them if everyone in the group thinks the same. Almost never saw that happen.

Give me strength, you've never seen it happen because people can leave without penalty.

I think your comment speaks for itself so I won't even directly respond to it...

you're right. For me this would be an overall bad thing. I don't need end of the run gear anymore and I'm only here for the IO. Even when I'm twinking I'd rather have a smooth run than a shitshow and can't really be bothered to stick it out with morons.

[Alroxas]

All reports aren't automated.

True but it's unlikely that any new systems that Blizzard would put in would have actual human eyes reviewing them. It's inefficient and too costly. Sure in an ideal world we would have a GM review every single case that gets redflagged but that's not the case.

Case in point - The Silence system currently used against "trade chat spammers" has been demonstrated to be a completely automated system. At least 1 if not more Twitch streamers have shown that they can mobilize their audience and have them "report" them to see how long it takes for the silence to kick in.

On the other hand, there's no way to tell someones attitude. You can't hold both sides equally accountable, when you can easily tell what kind of level someone plays at without knowing anything about them as a person.

Agreed but that's the larger issue of players choosing to do M+ in PuGs. Which I'll remind folks that the original intention by the Blizzard developers was that M+ is meant as smaller group content for existing social groups (i.e. Friends or guildmates). Sure you can do M+ with strangers but that comes at a cost compared to doing M+ with friends/guildmates. You rarely (if ever) get a player intentionally bricking a key among friends or guildmates. You rarely get "rage-quitters" amongst friends or guildmates.

They're both wasting other people's times. A debuff that stops people from joining keys for a short time is less than forcing someone to redo a dungeon to push the difficulty up again.

So explain to me why it's "better" or somehow ok to waste someone's time in a M+ when they no longer want to be there. Let's say a group advertised as pushing timer as advertised in the group finder listing. You join only to find out that oh look there's 1 undergeared player and the tank isn't even using the right DPS/survival trinkets (they are using Int trinkets). Clearly by the time you reach the first boss, you realize the group does not have the DPS for the level of keystone they are attempting to do. Why shouldn't you be able to leave without punishment? You were lied to about the group's expectations and ability to do the content that you signed up for. Maybe we should be talking about punishment for the group leader and the keystone holder (if they aren't the same person) for falsely representing their group expectations and ability?

As I've said before though, the right level of punishment is all that's needed.

I have doubts that there would be some widespread "just vaguely troll instead!", if the punishment is just a simple like, 15-30 minutes debuff that you can't do keys for.
Because nothing ensures that people are going to leave before you, would you rather just keep pounding your head into a wall praying someone leaves or just leave and do something else yourself?

Which just means that the "crazy sociopaths" will find ways around the punishment. Basically finding ways "to have their cake and eat it too". And since Bob's time is "wasted" on the group, some of those crazy sociopaths will just make the rest of the time as unpleasant as possible for the rest of the group.

Here's an example: Court of Stars - the strategy with the enforcers is to LoS the Fel Detonation cast. As many healers will point out, after the first enforcer they will remind players to LoS that cast. Maybe players forgot since it's been so long since they ran Court of Stars (or they are new to it). But on the second and third enforcers where the DPS continue to not LoS? A healer can "neglect" to heal players who constantly stand in that cast. Is that "bad" gameplay on the healer? It certainly is bad gameplay on the DPS who can't be bother to LoS an easily dodged ability. Report the healer for trolling? Or report the DPS for standing in bad? Technically the healer already warned the DPS after the first enforcer.

Shit like that happens all the time in M+ and being forced to "tough it out" otherwise you would get a penalty for leaving... That just sounds horrible. I'd rather have the current system than a punishment system like that.

[Zodiark]

It's still aimed incorrectly under any of the punishment systems suggested. Because players will know there's punishment for leaving keys, they'll simply act in ways that make other people more likely to quit. They could, for example, stop interrupting altogether. This will lead to wipes but there's a degree of plausible deniability even though the act itself is malicious. ("Oops, my bad I just rebinded my interrupt lol") This player decided 2 minutes into the key he didn't want to be there but doesn't want the penalty so now he's actively doing everything in his power to make somebody else leave first. Is that... really the way we want to go? I can't speak for everybody I'd rather that guy just leave and try it on the next key down.

Yeah well these are the risks you run when you play ANY game both in REAL LIFE and virtual when there is NO adjutant or referee to keep things fair. Your relying on the good nature of other players who at any time for any reason can decide to be dicks and brick the key.

Basically the only reason our world is as "civilized" as it is is because we have rules and laws and they are enforced by other people.
Left to their own devices people will do anything and everything and act however they want regardless of how it affects others when there are no consequences.

That said mistakes WILL obviously happen and because it's a game there should be some leniency but having some sort of virtual referee in M+ dungeons might go a long way to help lower overall toxicity.

[Azharok]

Yeah well these are the risks you run when you play ANY game both in REAL LIFE and virtual when there is NO adjutant or referee to keep things fair. Your relying on the good nature of other players who at any time for any reason can decide to be dicks and brick the key.

Basically the only reason our world is as "civilized" as it is is because we have rules and laws and they are enforced by other people.
Left to their own devices people will do anything and everything and act however they want regardless of how it affects others when there are no consequences.

That said mistakes WILL obviously happen and because it's a game there should be some leniency but having some sort of virtual referee in M+ dungeons might go a long way to help lower overall toxicity.

There are rules though, don't be an asshole amongst others.

Blizzard created part of the problem when they allowed players from all servers to play together. Sure it shortened queue times, but it also allowed people to be absolute dicks to each other with no consequence.

What people are suggesting here is that the baddies should be allowed to keep players trapped in keys under fear of punishment. I'm sorry I'm just not as terrible at the game as you. And going 20 minutes over a 30min dungeon is overkill.

If we're going to enforce punishment for leavers, I want in game tools to vet players better/more precisely.

[Loveliest]

This thread still going? Blizz just made a change to encourage ppl leaving keys that look like they are not gonna be timed, so why bother? It's the way it is because Blizz wants it like this.

Besides, what is the point of discussing this anyway. Ppl who leave want to leave and their reasoning will always be "you just want me to carry your ass, I am most amazing player and even if it was my mistake you all suck and don't deserve me".

Problem is ppl are so freaking bent over this, they start to be trained to leave. Seen a tank pull imps in cos 22 when party had nothing left for them, wiped, 15mins on timer and 10% left mobs and he wanted to leave. Healer managed to convince him to stay, finished in time ofc with plenty mins to spare. Ppl just get conditioned to leave to the point of stupidity.

[Jester Joe]

At this point, I don't even think you believe this is true. Are you telling me that you genuinely believe that armies of GM's are going to sit there painstakingly analysing a players gameplay and comparing it against past performance or logs or something to form an assessment of whether the player got hit by an AoE or missed an interrupt deliberately? Come on.

If you're going to respond to someone, don't sit there with a "holier than thou" attitude while straight up gaslighting with your arguments.

I'm not going to bother to discuss this with someone who's proven to be unwilling to actually listen to what's said.

[Anzen]

At this point, I don't even think you believe this is true. Are you telling me that you genuinely believe that armies of GM's are going to sit there painstakingly analysing a players gameplay and comparing it against past performance or logs or something to form an assessment of whether the player got hit by an AoE or missed an interrupt deliberately? Come on.

If you're going to respond to someone, don't sit there with a "holier than thou" attitude while straight up gaslighting with your arguments.

I'm not going to bother to discuss this with someone who's proven to be unwilling to actually listen to what's said.

3 posts below mine a poster responded to the same point of yours with the same counter-argument as mine. I'm sorry if you took issue with me in particular, unless you feel we are both 'straight up gaslighting' because we disagree.

It is regretful that you have taken this approach rather than address either of us on the counter-point made, but I understand the issue, given that much of your points depend on it.

If there is any evidence that GM's have the capacity to do as you suggest, I'm happy to change my view.

[Jester Joe]

3 posts below mine a poster responded to the same point of yours with the same counter-argument as mine. I'm sorry if you took issue with me in particular, unless you feel we are both 'straight up gaslighting' because we disagree.

It is regretful that you have taken this approach rather than address either of us on the counter-point made, but I understand the issue, given that much of your points depend on it.

If there is any evidence that GM's have the capacity to do as you suggest, I'm happy to change my view.

I never said anything close to what you're implying I said.

Don't even try that, I've said in the past that they have the tools most certainly to check people directly if they want to.

But in the current situation, the comment was "are reports automated or handled by a person", to which all I said was that all reports are automated, and that they do have the capability to handle reports by a player.

That's literally it. And you went on some accusational "oh so you said theyll painstakingly check every single report to see if people are interrupting or not!"

No. I never said that. I said once people hit a threshold of a certain level of reports they'll be looked at, never anything close to what you're claiming I said. And that's the issue I'm taking with your post specifically.

[Archy]

Fancy jumping to murder to try and make some sort of point... I've said throughout that it's non-existent, it's actually one of the only things we agree on, yet you continuously bring it up as a point as if I don't agree?

The only reason the point was made was because others in his thread had suggested that players had left their 'for no reason'. I have been consistent that there is virtually always a reason and it's most likely that players don't understand it. You left this part out of the quote unsuprisingly.

Please just stfu raising this again, and again, and again when we agree. Players leave for a reason. We know. Move on.

And this is you moving on? I thought we agreed on that. So why are you writing 3 paragraphs about it?

I don't know if I should be alarmed at your repeated use of murder examples? To be honest, it just makes you look a bit daft spewing out ridiculous comparisons like this.

It's called a hyperbole.

Add to that the blatant hypocrisy in saying "I'd completely understood a leave" while championing anti-leaver punishments on MMOC.

So you think we agreed on the first point and I should move on, but conveniently forgot about the whole thing 2 minutes later? There was a good reason to leave here. Everybody had the same goal and understood perfectly what was going on. Nobody would have been frustrated there. Are you trying to say that I would punish everybody who wants to leave? There is a reason why I suggested some sort of a rating system and not just a blanket deserter buff. Also I'm not "championing anti-leaver punishements". I champion rewarding friendly "holier than thou" players. If you don't care about that, just invite someone with the highest ilvl and rating. Nothing will change.

Please show me there this sudden addition of "you can't upvote friends/guildies" came in - I can't see that you've ever mentioned it until this response. How exactly do you qualify who is a friend out of interest?

Sure.

Yeah obviously the system would just allow for friends to upvote each over run after every run. There is nothing you can do about that. We just don't have the technology.

Guild mates and friend list (dating back half a year or something). Why do you even bring up those "obvious flaws" if there is an easy fix for it? Especially because I never spoken in detail about the rating system. If you are trying to poke holes into it, please use something with substance. The last thing about people who never pugged having a high rating was the same thing.

Give me strength, you've never seen it happen because people can leave without penalty.

The people who stay behind have almost always an opinion to offer. I think you can get a pretty good picture from that.

I think your comment speaks for itself so I won't even directly respond to it...

Because I can't advocate something that I don't benefit from?


This whole thing has turned from an interesting discussion to childish name calling. It basically boiled down to if it's okay to leave or not. Because this is, as shown here, a matter of opinion, that will vary from key to key. So no blanket solution, like punishing the first who leaves, will be an option. This has to be something player driven. A rating system, maybe something that only rewards friendly players and doesn't punish unliked players would be an option. This also could be something that only you, yourself can see. Indicating that in the group is someone you up/downvoted. Maybe those are low impact changes, but the good thing is that they won't affect anyone too negatively either.

[Garymorilix]

Quite a toxic sentiment.
The RLP was the example I gave for poor performance (to which you agreed). Nokhud was about keeping your word. If you think it's okay to agree to something and then just go back on your word 10min later, we don't have a game discussion but one about morals and ethics. And the 3rd one was about not being on the same page about the key being depleted or not.

Of coure poor performance was involved in every one. Why should people quit if everything is going exactly how they expected it? Again, it's something like a kid behaving well if he gets everything he wants. The instant something goes not according to his plan, s/he throws a tantrum. Would you say that this kid is well behaved?

Absolutely wrong.
There is a huge difference between doing a 'weekly' run and doing a run where you have to spend hours.
The expectation is not to do 1 weekly key for an entire afternoon just because people are bad. There is still an expected level of skill for a 'weekly' when it comes to pugs
You can make a full premade and technically wait for a BL for every single trash mob but you can't expect a pug to keep to that no matter what.

That's exactly what I've been saying all this time.
You can keep telling me that "this and that was his fault and he was toxic and yada yada" it's obvious that the performance is poor.
You will experience much less quitters if you play well. So my advice is the age old git gud.

I would say yes. It's not about "according to his plan". Most of the planning is on the tank.
More like, according to a competent team, I guess.

As I said, nobody owes you anything.
If you provide poor performance you can't expect people to stick.

[Anzen]

Please show me where this sudden addition of "you can't upvote friends/guildies" came in - I can't see that you've ever mentioned it until this response. How exactly do you qualify who is a friend out of interest?

Sure.

Yeah obviously the system would just allow for friends to upvote each over run after every run. There is nothing you can do about that. We just don't have the technology.

Of all the own goals I've ever seen on MMOC...

Yeah, this doesn't say anything about not allowing you to upvote friends/guildies... in fact quite the opposite and you've completely proven my point that you had not previously mentioned it until you invented it mid-way through your last post as an attempt to counter mine.

Besides the entertainment in watching someone checkmate themselves, there's not really much point continuing a debate with someone who's going to keep changing their stance while pretending they've always held it. Real Trump style debate vibes.

I did find your new suggestion that you can't upvote people on your friend list pretty funny, it's probably not worth the time pointing out the obvious flaw, because you're obviously aware and had already said earlier in this thread that we don't have the technology to properly identify friends, but I guess this is another 180.

[Archy]

Absolutely wrong.
There is a huge difference between doing a 'weekly' run and doing a run where you have to spend hours.
The expectation is not to do 1 weekly key for an entire afternoon just because people are bad. There is still an expected level of skill for a 'weekly' when it comes to pugs
You can make a full premade and technically wait for a BL for every single trash mob but you can't expect a pug to keep to that no matter what.

That's exactly what I've been saying all this time.
You can keep telling me that "this and that was his fault and he was toxic and yada yada" it's obvious that the performance is poor.
You will experience much less quitters if you play well. So my advice is the age old git gud.

I would say yes. It's not about "according to his plan". Most of the planning is on the tank.
More like, according to a competent team, I guess.

As I said, nobody owes you anything.
If you provide poor performance you can't expect people to stick.

You just assumed that it was going terribly and that it was my fault. That the player was bad, was, as I pointed out again, not the point that was being made. I added it to show that, in my anecotodal experience, the leaver isn't usually the top performer (like you wanted it to be). You see yourself as the hero, who only leaves because the others are bad.

The "git gud" is such an awesome argument. Devoid of any reasonable thinking, of course, but I'm also very fond of it. If you're really "gud" than the problem isn't an issue anymore. You probably have your own push group/list of friends you play with. People only need rating and not gear. Goals align, leavers are basically a non issue.

"According to his plan" obviously means whatever he invisioned when he started the dungeon. Not the route that the team was taking, but how bad this weekly can get before he leaves.

Of all the own goals I've ever seen on MMOC...

Yeah, this doesn't say anything about not allowing you to upvote friends/guildies... in fact quite the opposite and you've completely proven my point that you had not previously mentioned it until you invented it mid-way through your last post as an attempt to counter mine.

So sarcasm is new to you? This is getting ridiculous. Just to clarify. I was being facetious. Obviously there would be some sort of system in place to stop people from excessively upvoting one another. I stop using obvious sarcasm from now on, you don't have to thank me buddy. "It's the opposite"; that's hilarious.

This says a lot about you. You just want to destroy my argument, not add it. You're trying so hard to find a flaw that you don't think about it. Now your strategy is "Hey, that's not fair, you countered an argument of mine, after I said it." That's usually how it works. I didn't explain anything in depth, I just said that some sort of rating system would be a good idea. If you actually argued in good faith and not just feebly trying to destroy others, you would see it as fleshing out a system and not "scoring goals" or whatever. I'm pretty sure you could see a solution to the problem you raised immediately.

Besides the entertainment in watching someone checkmate themselves, there's not really much point continuing a debate with someone who's going to keep changing their stance while pretending they've always held it. Real Trump style debate vibes.

Oh I totally get it. It went from stupid to hilarious real quick. I can understand that you think I keep changing my stance, because you're not even able to detect obvious sarcasm. You're trying to "get" me the whole time and are now resorting to insults. That's adorable.

I did find your new suggestion that you can't upvote people on your friend list pretty funny, it's probably not worth the time pointing out the obvious flaw, because you're obviously aware and had already said earlier in this thread that we don't have the technology to properly identify friends, but I guess this is another 180.

Again, you really thought that wasn't sarcasm? You're mentioning it two times? I'm dying lauging over here. Such a "own goal", you got me there!

You can add people to your friend list, yeah. Not sure what you mean about upvoting ON your friend list? I just presume you mean, that you can basically "upvote" players already by putting them on your friends list. That's true, but it will fill your friends list real quick, with people who you probably won't interact again anyway. It just would be a stepping stone to the friend list (and something milder than just putting people on ignore). Finding people to play with is obvious the solution to this whole mess. But a lot of people want to play alone or they're anxious about making friends. This would be a way to guide people towards "the solution". You're building your network with much less hassle. If there is a nice UI function for it, people will use it. Over time they will add those player to their friend list or they are waiting for groups with upvoted people.

[Anzen]

So sarcasm is new to you?

Just to clarify. I was being facetious.

I can understand that you think I keep changing my stance, because you're not even able to detect obvious sarcasm.

Again, you really thought that wasn't sarcasm?

Oh dear, how embarrassing. It pretty obviously was not sarcasm (and it would have made zero sense even if it was) - viewers remain entitled to read it back and form their own opinion.

As I said before there's not much point continuing a debate with you, the whole thing has become pretty cringe-enducing.

You win, I lose. Argue with Garymorilix.

[Garymorilix]

You just assumed that it was going terribly and that it was my fault. That the player was bad, was, as I pointed out again, not the point that was being made. I added it to show that, in my anecotodal experience, the leaver isn't usually the top performer (like you wanted it to be). You see yourself as the hero, who only leaves because the others are bad.

The "git gud" is such an awesome argument. Devoid of any reasonable thinking, of course, but I'm also very fond of it. If you're really "gud" than the problem isn't an issue anymore. You probably have your own push group/list of friends you play with. People only need rating and not gear. Goals align, leavers are basically a non issue.

"According to his plan" obviously means whatever he invisioned when he started the dungeon. Not the route that the team was taking, but how bad this weekly can get before he leaves.

I don't know why you're so defensive about this.

All I've been saying was that it is okay to leave if you want to leave.
Because if you want to leave then something is probably going poorly in the first place.
'You' means 'a random person' in this context. Not specifically you.

I never said I'm playing perfectly.
In fact, when I do some shitty pull/fail a pull and it goes horribly wrong I am fully prepared that people might leave.
That's because I don't expect anything from people. Nobody owes me their time.
So what I do is I get better so I won't be the one fucking up. Out of the 5 people in a dungeon group the only one I can control is me.

Learn to take an L.

[sponge5307]

???

Brother, what the actual fuck are you on about now?

I'm asking you to tell us why this system needs to exist. If (hypothetically) 90% of the WoW population never does more than 4 keys a week and it doesn't apply to the first 5 keys, why is it even there? And in the situations where it does apply, it's only providing a negative: There is now an incentive for a player who knows that leaving will effect their leave percentage to ruin a key and make somebody else (who may still be on their "free 5 leaves") leave first. It seems pointless at best, and wildly inconvenient and prone to abuse at worst. Nothing is better than the system you're describing.

LOL how do you know 90% of the players only do 4 m+. Do you have the stats for it? Please show me.

- - - Updated - - -

I will say - genuinely, I hate when people actively tank my key. Especially when I'm trying my hardest to clear +16 or higher for the Concentrated Primal, and then the tank dies to an entirely avoidable mechanic or my DPS refuse to kick an unhealable spell, which results in one, sometimes two, people leaving, which always and invariably causes my key to deplete to 15. No longer eligible for the Concentrated Primal.

If we don't want to punish this degenerate behavior, then stop punishing the people suffering from this degenerate behavior. Why do I need to have 30, 45 minutes of my time wasted upgrading my key back up to 16, 17 from 15 when I'm not even the issue? I'm 405 ilvl yet people don't take me into their keys because they're expecting 410 ilvl at this point.

Either stop key depletion entirely from leavers or severely punish leavers. There is no in between in my eyes. If someone points me at one, I can be convinced, but I'm seriously done with this. Of the 9+ attempted 16+ keys I've tried this week, 8 of them have been abandoned after one, two wipes, and my key was depleted. Disgusting degenerate behavior.

And if you're one of those people that does that, I hope that you get what's coming to you. Time is hard to come by these days, and you waste others' time by not even feigning vague interest in trying and leaving when a death bores you. Stop playing M+ if you're going to do that. We try to complete content here for rewards. Not punishing others. Assholes.

And then he gets reported and eventually action is taken against his account.

Like, it's as simple as that, people who abuse a system get eventually in trouble, is it worth having your account suspended to dodge a few penalties for quitting M+?

It's getting exhausting seeing the same claim of "it's holding them hostage" at this point. People who are joining random groups are able to decide what groups they list for, and can easily quickly check to see if the group is qualified enough before starting the key.

Join a group and realize it's full of survival hunters for some reason? Leave before starting. Don't start the key and wait 10 minutes in to quit.

There's already deterrence systems in other content but I don't see people ruining LFR/LFG groups just to get others to leave first so they can quit without a debuff. Simple fall backs like "Key is already overtime" can be added to allow people to leave without any sort of debuff.


The major issue here is that the person receiving the punishment for a player rage quitting isn't the player who rage quit, it's the person who used their key for the run. Currently the punishment is more often aimed at the wrong player.

No point to argue and point out the truth to people here. Since you know a lot of "support" doing nothing. Who know why? But you can surely take a guess why. Who does it benefit by not punishing people leaving your keys for no reason other than they "feel" like it. Once you figure out why then you know there is no sense is discussing it anymore. I will give you a hint it have to do with the very thing they are arguing with you.

Lol a simple way just to show how many times you left keys people still argue is bad since poeple will just do stupid things to make other leave first LOL.

Or since blizzard have made it clear that m+ is not made to be pugged so let's remove it from group founder you still have people here complain that will make it hard to find pugs for it. j

Again people here 0 punishment for leaving. They want the system to stay the same as it is now. Simple as that. Doesn't matter what simple reason you give out they will defend it to the death.

[Relapses]

LOL how do you know 90% of the players only do 4 m+. Do you have the stats for it? Please show me.

Go ahead and read the word in parentheses.

[Zodiark]

There are rules though, don't be an asshole amongst others.

Blizzard created part of the problem when they allowed players from all servers to play together. Sure it shortened queue times, but it also allowed people to be absolute dicks to each other with no consequence.

What people are suggesting here is that the baddies should be allowed to keep players trapped in keys under fear of punishment. I'm sorry I'm just not as terrible at the game as you. And going 20 minutes over a 30min dungeon is overkill.

If we're going to enforce punishment for leavers, I want in game tools to vet players better/more precisely.

I could go for something like that. But there are always outliers. Myself for example. I'm decent at mechanics not amazing but good enough to not wipe the party or pull extra mobs or something. I also know how to play pretty much all classes and specs passably.(Actually I usually am the top DPS in most of my groups for the past however many years it's been since parser addons came out) But I don't have a good IO score or anything. SO you would never know all that.

[This One Time At Bandcamp]

I don't want to be forced to stay 40mins in a group with a toxic person.
Imagine someone being rude and purposely ruining the key. But you can't leave because you get penalized?

Besides. Blizzard made it so you need score to upgrade gear. So many people do dungeons for rank - not gear. So there's no point of staying if you dont wont increase your score. Faster to just find a better group.

[Archy]

Oh dear, how embarrassing. It pretty obviously was not sarcasm (and it would have made zero sense even if it was) - viewers remain entitled to read it back and form their own opinion.

Sorry I had to mention it a couple of times, I really couldn't believe it. And now you're doubling down on it.
It would make zero sense that I reply to an "obvious flaw", which can easily be fixed, with sarcasm? You think Blizzard not having the technology who is on who's friendlist is a reasonable statement? I was mocking your statement, but that flew right over your head. And you're wondering why I have to commit to hyperboles involving murder to get my point across.

I don't know why you're so defensive about this.

All I've been saying was that it is okay to leave if you want to leave.
Because if you want to leave then something is probably going poorly in the first place.
'You' means 'a random person' in this context. Not specifically you.

I never said I'm playing perfectly.
In fact, when I do some shitty pull/fail a pull and it goes horribly wrong I am fully prepared that people might leave.
That's because I don't expect anything from people. Nobody owes me their time.
So what I do is I get better so I won't be the one fucking up. Out of the 5 people in a dungeon group the only one I can control is me.

Learn to take an L.

You're kind of missing the point here. You can't "take the L" if you haven't lost. If you agree beforehand to stay for the weekly and it isn't going horribly (can't get past a boss - 2 wipes on the same spot) it's not an L. You're here to finish the dungeon. That's you're goal. That you won't finish it in time is irrelevant. As I stated multiple times, the difference in goals is the problem.

I don't want to control other people. I just think that having a little bit more information than ilvl and rating wouldn't be a bad idea. Why are you so opposed to this? If it doesn't matter to you, you can just ignore it. If there is no problem in the current system it would be just a useless bit of additional information. But there are literally large communities to promote "no pressure" environments. I don't mind a toxic cesspool if the players are good, but I don't like seeing people quitting because of this reason. I'd like to see the M+ community to grow. Rewarding friendly behaviuor isn't the worst idea for this.

[Garymorilix]

Sorry I had to mention it a couple of times, I really couldn't believe it. And now you're doubling down on it.
It would make zero sense that I reply to an "obvious flaw", which can easily be fixed, with sarcasm? You think Blizzard not having the technology who is on who's friendlist is a reasonable statement? I was mocking your statement, but that flew right over your head. And you're wondering why I have to commit to hyperboles involving murder to get my point across.




You're kind of missing the point here. You can't "take the L" if you haven't lost. If you agree beforehand to stay for the weekly and it isn't going horribly (can't get past a boss - 2 wipes on the same spot) it's not an L. You're here to finish the dungeon. That's you're goal. That you won't finish it in time is irrelevant. As I stated multiple times, the difference in goals is the problem.

I don't want to control other people. I just think that having a little bit more information than ilvl and rating wouldn't be a bad idea. Why are you so opposed to this? If it doesn't matter to you, you can just ignore it. If there is no problem in the current system it would be just a useless bit of additional information. But there are literally large communities to promote "no pressure" environments. I don't mind a toxic cesspool if the players are good, but I don't like seeing people quitting because of this reason. I'd like to see the M+ community to grow. Rewarding friendly behaviuor isn't the worst idea for this.

I'm not missing any point.
I said, and I'll say it again: not-timing a dungeon & doing a 2 hour wipe-fest are two very different things.
Just cuz someone joins a weekly run there is zero obligation to actually stick with it if the group is horrid. You can find another weekly run where people are not (or less) horrid easily.

You do have more information available than ilvl and rating.
In fact, I can filter the boosted kids out pretty efficiently with everything that rio provides me.
Nothing is 100% of course because it literally cant be. IDK what you need more information for anyway, "he left a weekly run" is pretty hard to measure with a number.

You don't want to control people but fuck they shouldn't be able to use their free will to ditch a horrible run, right?
Alright.