Embelishments, Primordial Gems, and other new Borrowed Power systems

[loras]

This seems to be a combination of grasping at straws and genuinely not having a clue.
It's literally just mildly customisable gear, craftable gems and sockets (which can be added to any neckpiece).

[huth]

That is literally a thing, just normal crafted armor, you can craft armor of the exact same ilvl, with no "embelleshed" unique tag on it, that is the same armor just without a special effect...

You are literally asking for a thing that already fucking exists.

Yeah, that really made no sense at all. At a maximum item level of 418, they can also potentially last you all the way to the next tier where they'll likely be upgradable even further.

[RahEndymion]

That is literally a thing, just normal crafted armor, you can craft armor of the exact same ilvl, with no "embelleshed" unique tag on it, that is the same armor just without a special effect...

You are literally asking for a thing that already fucking exists.

It isn't a set though?

Let me write this in no uncertain terms as it seems you quite literally cannot be fallacious.

I would like TBC-esque sets. A weaker alternative to tier / embellished sets that enable you to actually progress through set collection while also working as a gap filler. Implemented in a way that doesn't threaten the primacy of tier.

I do not find it satisfying to be able to craft a 6 set items and only wear 2. The efficacy of the set bonus is irrelevant to that. This also invalidates 50% of your available progression while crafting. Sure, 'work orders' but they're currently broken / insignificant.

But, judging from previous experience, you're going to come in and tell me 'durr you already have / shouldn't want / don't need this durr' as though you're in a better position to dictate how I, personally, would prefer a system to be set out.

It's green and it grows in the ground. Go touch it.

[arkanon]

I wish people could make small leaps of logic themselves rather then whine they can't grasp the simplist of topics.

People don't want rng time gated items like these gems to be in the game. No one is complaining about tier barring having the forge available sooner. People don't want to wait on weeks of lock outs to make playing an alt at high content viable.

Hopefully that is clear enough.

Speaking of leaps..............do you just ignore the people saying they like it?

[huth]

It isn't a set though?

Let me write this in no uncertain terms as it seems you quite literally cannot be fallacious.

I would like TBC-esque sets. A weaker alternative to tier / embellished sets that enable you to actually progress through set collection while also working as a gap filler. Implemented in a way that doesn't threaten the primacy of tier.

I do not find it satisfying to be able to craft a 6 set items and only wear 2. The efficacy of the set bonus is irrelevant to that. This also invalidates 50% of your available progression while crafting. Sure, 'work orders' but they're currently broken / insignificant.

But, judging from previous experience, you're going to come in and tell me 'durr you already have / shouldn't want / don't need this durr' as though you're in a better position to dictate how I, personally, would prefer a system to be set out.

It's green and it grows in the ground. Go touch it.

What the hell are you even talking about? You jump between different ideas with very little rhyme or reason. TBC crafted sets were completely seperated from Tier sets and strictly inferior gear for the most part, and only really useful in the tier they were introduced in. They did not work as gap fillers. They at most worked as starter gear. There weren't even all that many of them.
Current crafted gear is, even without embellishments, largely equivalent to Raid and M+ gear. There's also crafted set pieces if you really want those. It is also upgradeable to keep pace with later tiers.

You can also literally wear almost entirely crafted gear - the 2 piece limit is exclusively for embellished items, not every crafted piece. It doesn't even include trinkets. Play an alchemist and you can completely equip yourself with full mythic equivalent crafted gear.

The problem isn't that people are giving you fallacious arguments - the problem is that your explanation makes no sense and is all over the place. You say you write in no uncertain terms only to write in unclear and confusing language.

[FelPlague]

It isn't a set though?

Let me write this in no uncertain terms as it seems you quite literally cannot be fallacious.

I would like TBC-esque sets. A weaker alternative to tier / embellished sets that enable you to actually progress through set collection while also working as a gap filler. Implemented in a way that doesn't threaten the primacy of tier.

I do not find it satisfying to be able to craft a 6 set items and only wear 2. The efficacy of the set bonus is irrelevant to that. This also invalidates 50% of your available progression while crafting. Sure, 'work orders' but they're currently broken / insignificant.

But, judging from previous experience, you're going to come in and tell me 'durr you already have / shouldn't want / don't need this durr' as though you're in a better position to dictate how I, personally, would prefer a system to be set out.

It's green and it grows in the ground. Go touch it.

You can craft a 6 set of items and wear those 6 items though... Just make sure only 2 have embellishments... We keep telling you that. You can wear crafted gear on literally every slot if you wanted...

I am currently wearing a crafted neck, helm, bracers, belt, ring, and soon a trinket. And maybe even a staff.

[Alroxas]

You can also literally wear almost entirely crafted gear - the 2 piece limit is exclusively for embellished items, not every crafted piece. It doesn't even include trinkets. Play an alchemist and you can completely equip yourself with full mythic equivalent crafted gear.

Alchemy stone in DF does not require Alchemy to equip. But I support your argument that a player can in fact wear 418 crafted gear in basically all slots. Of those, only 2 can have embellishments (either added during the crafting process or have embellishment built in already).

[RahEndymion]

You can craft a 6 set of items and wear those 6 items though... Just make sure only 2 have embellishments... We keep telling you that. You can wear crafted gear on literally every slot if you wanted...

I am currently wearing a crafted neck, helm, bracers, belt, ring, and soon a trinket. And maybe even a staff.

Okay, when I said 'crafted set' and compared to a 'tier set' I thought it would be pretty obvious I meant including a set bonus / some sort of incentive to actually progress the professions and create the items. I literally said that.

Having the same word at the start of the name and sharing an aesthetic is literally how every profession has always worked in game forever. I'm quite obviously not asking for that. Obviously.

I did not say you can't currently equip a crafted epic or that there was a lack of power of the available gear. I am saying I find it boring that the interesting crafted gear is all embellished and limited to 2 set bonus.

As I said previously: I personally would find it more engaging and interesting writ large if there was the ability to work on a 5 piece over time. As an example, with tailoring, the interesting gear is either chronocloth or azureweave, both maxing 3 items per set, 2 equippable across the six, with only one set bonus per set.

What I am asking for is the ability to craft 5 chronocloth items / 5 azureweave items, each set having a 2 and 3 set bonus, maximum equip 5. Not because it would be OP or because the numbers aren't good enough, but because then you could gap fill your tier with interesting gear that you can switch out and customise as you progress through difficulties in raids / m+.

The way the current loot system works it is not the case that you're likely to have all tier pieces at the right item level. The way the current loot system works it is absolutely the case that while progressing through raid difficulties and +m you are almost guaranteed to get random drops that have an item level that makes it worth while to abandon them for tier / you don't have the valor for upgrades etc.

In the scenario I proposed, you have an alternative to farming valor and a way to increase the customisation of your class.

Now, that is precisely like early TBC. Which is somewhat relevant given we are in early DF..

Using the same example of tailoring, you could craft Spellstrike/Soulcloth/Whitemend sets which all had their own set bonuses and could be used alongside tier gear. Now obviously we have the current crafting ilvl upgrade system and a much more involved crafting system generally which would add more longevity.

Why is this a controversial concept?

I appreciate my initial comment was vague, but it's a comment in a thread, made quickly on a throwaway topic. Wasn't expecting to have to fight off some sort of weird attempt at a 'gotcha' moment because of a vague comment unrelated to literally anyone. But, you do seem to basically just trawl through this place searching for dopamine lol

[Nite92]

For TBC Esque crafted sets that while powerful don't trivialise raid/m+ gear. Something like the sets we have, toned down set bonuses and the ability to wear a full set or mix and match a 2 set and 3 set bonus with farmable bop rather than time gated materials.

1.) Have you indpected any warlock in tbc p1?
2.) Time gating is not bad in this regard... would actually prefer people being able to farm 418s without CD? Because that's 10x worse than the current system we have.
3.) This 2/3set idea is kinda shit. Locks you out of potentially useful items you can get.

[RahEndymion]

1.) Have you indpected any warlock in tbc p1?
2.) Time gating is not bad in this regard... would actually prefer people being able to farm 418s without CD? Because that's 10x worse than the current system we have.
3.) This 2/3set idea is kinda shit. Locks you out of potentially useful items you can get.

In terms of time gating my issue isn't how quickly you can craft the items, it's how unengaging the sparks are. It's one quest every 2 weeks. Rather than being able to actively go and do something to increase your chances / further your gear through crafting. Perhaps this would feel better if it was a several part quest line rather than just 'go to x and get y' once every 14 days. It doesn't necessarily have to be a free and open ended grind fest.

In terms of your choices being locked, that's why I specified that the set bonuses would need to be a little bit less impactful than embellished item or tier sets. In this scenario it is really only superior to tier if it has a substantial ilvl increase.

[Alroxas]

As I said previously: I personally would find it more engaging and interesting writ large if there was the ability to work on a 5 piece over time. As an example, with tailoring, the interesting gear is either chronocloth or azureweave, both maxing 3 items per set, 2 equippable across the six, with only one set bonus per set.

What I am asking for is the ability to craft 5 chronocloth items / 5 azureweave items, each set having a 2 and 3 set bonus, maximum equip 5. Not because it would be OP or because the numbers aren't good enough, but because then you could gap fill your tier with interesting gear that you can switch out and customise as you progress through difficulties in raids / m+.

Nope this is a bad idea. Just look at Legion gearing for the prime example. You had players trying to juggle 4pc current tier with 2pc from previous tier (but high enough ilv so that the bonuses outweigh the lower ilv than using non-tier pieces from the current tier) and 2 legion legendaries while keeping your weapon unchanged.

Player had very little freedom to customize gear. You were locked in to the specific configurations because they were BiS.

Now translate that over to DF with your idea. What would prevent players from trying to balance a 4 pc tier set with not 1 but 2 additional set bonus from non-tier gear AND also a lariat and some other crafted item with the BiS embellishment.

Why is this a controversial concept?

See above. But you might say, well normal players, casual players wouldn't go to these lengths. Maybe but sometimes for the good of the playerbase, limitations must be put in place (at least initially) for the health of the game. Maybe when we reach Patch 10.3.5 all the restrictions can be loosened because it's the end of the expansion and the numbers don't mean much anymore at that point.

[FelPlague]

I don't think there should be items that greatly effect your character that are earned solely through time like the past iteration of this gem system. Gearing is trivial in modern wow. 410 ilv for an experienced player takes a couple of weeks at most and that's a good thing.

There is zero benefit to time locking people out of content designed for their skill level.

- - - Updated - - -



I wish people could make small leaps of logic themselves rather then whine they can't grasp the simplist of topics.

People don't want rng time gated items like these gems to be in the game. No one is complaining about tier barring having the forge available sooner. People don't want to wait on weeks of lock outs to make playing an alt at high content viable.

Hopefully that is clear enough.

I have been on the PTR for 2 days and have 13 of them.
Timegated RNG?

[RahEndymion]

Nope this is a bad idea. Just look at Legion gearing for the prime example. You had players trying to juggle 4pc current tier with 2pc from previous tier (but high enough ilv so that the bonuses outweigh the lower ilv than using non-tier pieces from the current tier) and 2 legion legendaries while keeping your weapon unchanged.

Player had very little freedom to customize gear. You were locked in to the specific configurations because they were BiS.

Now translate that over to DF with your idea. What would prevent players from trying to balance a 4 pc tier set with not 1 but 2 additional set bonus from non-tier gear AND also a lariat and some other crafted item with the BiS embellishment.



See above. But you might say, well normal players, casual players wouldn't go to these lengths. Maybe but sometimes for the good of the playerbase, limitations must be put in place (at least initially) for the health of the game. Maybe when we reach Patch 10.3.5 all the restrictions can be loosened because it's the end of the expansion and the numbers don't mean much anymore at that point.

You're not wrong and I remember how much of a headache Legion was for that.

As mentioned, I have tried to make it clear that in this hypothetical, the items are not created to compete for BiS. Something like ZM gear just crafted and upgradeable. Basline stats viable but set bonuses exclusive to open world / non instanced content. Or even a difficulty cap on the set bonus or something.

This was literally just an idea based on how it feels to play through the crafting / m+ / raid progression systems in DF. Obviously for it to be genuinely viable there'd have to be a lot of numerical iteration and a hell of a lot more thought than a mmoc comment allows.

[xero5141]

Honestly, I'd have preferred for the Embellished gear to be a specific addition to a crafted epic.

Doesn't seem overly effective at gap filling when you can only equip 2 items. I would rather have a catch up / gap filler that allows you to actually fill gaps rather than being an OP / legendary style piece of gear.

Which embellishment do you consider OP/on par with legendaries?

[Easyclassictopkeklel]

"Borrowed power" is like the phrase "P2W" in the WoW community. Everybody has a slightly different definition of it and they use it to vaguely describe things they don't like. I read these takes and I wonder if people who think like this are even aware WoW is a MMO.

OT: I think this crafting system is generally an upgrade from what we had before but the whole quality thing can suck the biggest fuck.

nah man, some ppl are just too dumb to see what the real issue with borrowed powers was and are just posting total nonsense. Like 1% dps gains are anywhere close to the real borrowed powers, where you had to grind the living sht out of the game and/or more or less fun mechanics were added to specs which made them feel incredibly shitty when you lost them again. (say hello to bfa leveling getting weaker from level to level).
It's pretty much pointless to argue with those people, because they do not really understand the game and its REAL problems.

[Tentim]

I have been on the PTR for 2 days and have 13 of them.
Timegated RNG?

Welcome to ptr were they increase the drop rates for testing ?

If it's your first time most raid bosses dont have so much hp the first phase lasts 10 mins either on live.

[FelPlague]

Welcome to ptr were they increase the drop rates for testing ?

If it's your first time most raid bosses dont have so much hp the first phase lasts 10 mins either on live.

Lol you must not know how the system works do ya?
it's not a "drop"

[Tentim]

Lol you must not know how the system works do ya?
it's not a "drop"

I know I don't trust this in the slightest. It's been half a decade of awful ideas and I was hoping that with DF it was finally over. I think blizzard needs to rush its devs harder and more relentlessly if doing so means systems like this don't get made.

There is in no way a positive improvement being made with this junk. At best it's a dead slot. At worse a tiresome grind.

[Nite92]

In terms of time gating my issue isn't how quickly you can craft the items, it's how unengaging the sparks are. It's one quest every 2 weeks. Rather than being able to actively go and do something to increase your chances / further your gear through crafting. Perhaps this would feel better if it was a several part quest line rather than just 'go to x and get y' once every 14 days. It doesn't necessarily have to be a free and open ended grind fest.

In terms of your choices being locked, that's why I specified that the set bonuses would need to be a little bit less impactful than embellished item or tier sets. In this scenario it is really only superior to tier if it has a substantial ilvl increase.

Sadly that is not how this works. We have seen this in classic and retail over and over again.
If you give players a grind for potential power gain, many will go for it. Imo sparks are perfectly fine, you get your sparks at a specific rate, but you still need to invest effort into getting the required materials to make them actually good items.

You misunderstood my point. Obviously it does not compete with tier, that would be horrific design. I am saying, you have a 3set cloak, belt, boots. Now it is either unnoticably weak, or you look yourself out of potential upgrades like it was in legion.
People had 4p+2p+2legendaries and no weapon. Now you realistically could only upgrades in so few slots, that is sucks. If we had sets, embellishments and crafted sets, it would just be too much.

[Glorious Leader]

Sick! Mandatory grinds are back! Enjoy fuckers!