Putting the "Cult" back in WoW culture.

[nvaelz]

WoW was unique to begin with because it was accessible to all when measured against its competition. Appealing to a wide audience has been the goal from the start. If anything the repeated attempts to ramp up difficulty in end game (starting with Cataclysm and swerving back and forth since) have served to limit the appeal of the game. High-end raiding and M+ are not accessible to the masses. Some prefer it that way and that's fine. That's a design choice.

Ion usually mentions "bragging rights" a few times a year but tell me: Do you enjoy listening to others exercising their bragging rights and expounding at length on their personal greatness? I don't.

Do you think it's the right idea to introduce a lot of competitive elements to PVE which nominally is supposed to be co-operative in nature?

Clearly, the more developers design competitive elements into a co-operative piece of the game, the more people of less skill (i.e. most players) will opt out of that game and likely the game entirely.

True it's always been a mistake to force players into competition, that's why the vibe in Vanilla was good cuz it's designed to bring players together, you'll whisper/get whispered to join in on activities even if people don't know you, that would never happen on retail.

But I don't know if you're aware, the way Blizzard balances the game is for casuals to be able to partake easily, so a really terrible player that wouldn't make it past level 10 in Vanilla without MUCH HEARTACHE can finally compete in a m+ environment, because the game is streamlined for them.

Really Blizzard is going down paths that are so bad for everyone, all player power identity is squashed to make room for the casual, and it might be easily accessible as it is now but it's all just a competitive ladder that leads to MDI where no one is going.

Two mistakes.

It's a formula that is just boring, I much prefered Vanilla where it didn't matter, the end was just lame and nothing happened really.
Now it's like Diablo 3 type progression where you might be blind and enjoy the ride but then you're awake and you realize that it's all about hyper optimizations, oh you want to farm those 150s? better go META cuz that's whats up in the timeattack race for the rank 1 positions, all about being in a huge hurry really, so things like HEALER OUTPUT METAS are taken seriously, I prefered the time when it wasn't taken seriously(cuz time attack content wasn't in existence).

So Blizzard designed WoW to be all about competitive time attacks, 3rd mistake. And me being a wise man looks at this from the outside and sees that players are now more toxic, less forgiving, less friendly and more autistically competitive because that's what Blizzard has made them become, and I hate it.

Blizzard = Evil?

And honestly, the trading post insults me for the above reasons, it's like getting some glitter on a pile of shit served to you.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Is WoW loosing it's identity in favor of trying to appeal to TOO wide of an audience, thus shedding some of the "magic", that made it unique to begin with?

Gameplay wise, WoW lost its identity when LFG with a teleport to a dungeon was added. There was no more world anymore.

Aesthetically, WoW stopped feeling like WoW during Legion, when it shifted from the gritty WoW artstyle to a generic mobile game/league of legends/deviantart aesthetic. Story wise the game has become world of peacecraft.

[arkanon]

A game, movie, or show, really any IP needs to stay consistent with the theme that made it popular in the first place without letting other elements influence it changing the overall theme and feel of what made it popular to begin with. Otherwise it risks alienating it's audience.

The Twilight Zone is an example of how sometimes you have to just stay the course of your vision. In it's entire run that show only had ONE episode which was submitted by fans. The reason is because the shows creator Rod Serling recognized that while many fan ideas might be good, that by allowing too many outside voices to influence the show that the core theme and style might become muddled.

Perhaps this is true with WoW, have TOO many cooks spoiled the soup?

Is WoW loosing it's identity in favor of trying to appeal to TOO wide of an audience, thus shedding some of the "magic", that made it unique to begin with?

You can somewhat relate this to bands/music as well, but there is an issue, which i think bands show better than wow - sticking true to what made you popular in the first place isnt a bad idea (in theory), however the issues arise as the fanbase grows and matures, as well as the band themselves. Bands that stick to the same formula are accused of releasing the "same song" and "same album" over and over, bands like nickleback being a good example. To be clear, they are hated for a variety of reasons, im not talking about that, but they released VERY similar songs for years and years.

Then there are the bands that take it way too far the other way, and completely swap genres or just move so far away from their roots, they are almost an entirely different band.

There is a fine line to walk between providing what is expected by a 19yo kid in 2023 vs a 19yo kid in 2004, and making sure you retain at least some of the 2004 people, even though they are 40+. I agree its important to capture the magic and maintain it as much as possible, but Classic is proof that although there is demand for what made wow popular to begin with, its nowhere near as powerful as people think.

tldr i agree, but its not as simple as you think.

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Gameplay wise, WoW lost its identity when LFG with a teleport to a dungeon was added. There was no more world anymore.

Only if you consider getting summoned to a stone or afking on flight-points to a stone to be meaningful gameplay, and only if dungeons is the core of the game.

[Zodiark]

For my $0.02, I agree with the above. I have been playing since 2005, sometimes as a casual, sometimes as a no-life poopsocker, and I've come back after absences with that sense of "What the hell is all this?" a few times now. I've also rabidly consumed every theory, every datamined detail, and played most aspects of the game ravenously at various times. Point is, I've experienced both alienation from change and deeply engrossed player and I would say that at the end of the day, WoW's lifeblood is a passionate and large player base. There are many ways to achieve that.

Certainly Blizzard has made missteps that have repelled some fans. Certainly some are pretty univeraally-decried and therefore probably constitute a genuine mistake full-stop, like Shadowlands.

But, if anything, I would say Blizzard isn't changing too much or too little in-game, just that at times their passions for the game or perhaps their ability to manage their passions fruitfully have struggled. It's easy and perhaps fair to say Activision played a part in that, changing expectations of scheduling and metrics, but really it's such a complicated thing to try to maintain decades of creativity and sparks of genius in a Ship of Theseus that I think Activision winds up being unfairly blamed for things that are simply outside of their control.

If Blizzard wants to reinvigorate the community and re-establish primacy in "cult" status again, they need to do a lot of things. They need to take hard looks at who helms things; seek out and headhunt genuinely exceptional talents and that means paying rates above their competitors; commit to making the game's stories, systems, and experiences coherent and accessible to NEW players; iterate on design in an agile and timely fashion to address pain points and capitalize on successes; advertise aggressively based on these things.

Should they do things to ensure returning players do in fact return? Undoubtedly. This is not exclusive to doing the above and indeed would equally benefit from the above!

But the last thing they need to do is arbitrarily ignore the passions of fans, stagnate intentionally, retread every single thing we find cozy and nostalgic, and close off avenues of innovation.

I am in a similar boat as you. Started summer of 05' I had other obligations that prevented me from playing at launch but I have been up and down and all through the various aspects of WoW. To this day some of my FAVORITE moments are the exploration of the older zones. Back then seems like developers had less of a budget to work with but more passion so though there were LESS details in the world the ones that were there were more impactful.

That said, going onto your later comments I would say Blizzard has to go back to their old axiom of It's ready when it's ready. I know in today's world with investors, etc, you have to deliver. They only care about a bottom line. However they can go back to that way of thinking. Hire people who are genuinely passionate about WoW and it's lore. Make the types of games they themselves would want to play and explore. Weed out those that are just employed at Blizzard for a paycheck and or to only boost the clout of their own portfolio.

Many of these things are easier said than done I know I own a business myself and ideas vs reality often are at odds. However with that mindset Blizzard could really start course correction and hopefully regain some of that trust it once had with it's playerbase. Like being in an abusive relationship, there's only so long you can keep going back to your partner when they promise to do better only to see it's a halfhearted attempt to recapture your trust.

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You can somewhat relate this to bands/music as well, but there is an issue, which i think bands show better than wow - sticking true to what made you popular in the first place isnt a bad idea (in theory), however the issues arise as the fanbase grows and matures, as well as the band themselves. Bands that stick to the same formula are accused of releasing the "same song" and "same album" over and over, bands like nickleback being a good example. To be clear, they are hated for a variety of reasons, im not talking about that, but they released VERY similar songs for years and years.

Then there are the bands that take it way too far the other way, and completely swap genres or just move so far away from their roots, they are almost an entirely different band.

There is a fine line to walk between providing what is expected by a 19yo kid in 2023 vs a 19yo kid in 2004, and making sure you retain at least some of the 2004 people, even though they are 40+. I agree its important to capture the magic and maintain it as much as possible, but Classic is proof that although there is demand for what made wow popular to begin with, its nowhere near as powerful as people think.

tldr i agree, but its not as simple as you think.

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Only if you consider getting summoned to a stone or afking on flight-points to a stone to be meaningful gameplay, and only if dungeons is the core of the game.

I know it's not as simple as all that which I more or less aluded to with my above comment. However lets look at the comparison you made with bands/music.
Look at Hall and Oates as one example during the 70's they had a good sound and popular appeal which was tailored to the time, as they went into the 80's however they experienced their biggest commercial success as they adapted to the new sound while still retaining that original vibe and feel that made them popular to begin with. Heart was another example, they started way back in 1967! But they knew the benefits of adapting their sound and by the mid 80's they only had gotten better after 1985+ Then you had bands like Red Hot Chili Peppers who I think are a good example of keeping a similar sound but adapting in a way that kept it fresh.

Bottom line innovation isn't a BAD thing it's just that Blizzard needs to stay true to their original vision and Theme of the game while making GOOD ideas that add to and enhance that theme rather than lessen it. Yes this is easier said than done but unlike a band or artist with limited means (compared to a multi-billion dollar company), Blizzard has the means to ensure ideas are better vetted.

Almost every expansion in WoW I really enjoyed the leveling process and gameplay, enjoying the scenery and vistas. Even WoD which was widely panned for it's lack of content at some point and Shadowlands had their good points. But the way Shadowlands was the expansion that I least enjoy. Matter fact nowadays I avoid going there unless I really have to because that was to me an example of an idea that slipped through the cracks somehow. It had good points but the fiber that tied it together just didn't FEEL like WoW to me. It had grown alien and unfamiliar. Sure I enjoyed some of the places like Ardenweald but then my enjoyment became faltered when I had to travel back to Oribos. Maldraxxus had it's good points too for a sort of creepy land of the abominations and plague doctors. These just seemed like decent ideas that weren't vetted properly and somehow thrown together hastily to make them into an expansion.

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Its primary "magic" was that it was the first MMO with real mainstream appeal. And like Diablo and Warcraft 2 before it (2 of the first games you could play online), Blizzard was quick to be one the first to put out a fairly polished game with a concept that had a lot of potential, that prior was very niche and had a lot of rigid restrictions. They loosened up the restrictions, used a more popular theme, and smoothened out the edges.

They've been trying to widen the net since Wrath, which is when Activision took over. So I have no idea why you think this is something new. If anything it seems like they've finally kind of accepted who their audience is and stopped trying to appeal to Gen Z.

Warcraft is basically a ripoff of Warhammer with other popular fantasy ripped off and weaved in (Arthurian lore, Lovecraft, etc) and WoWs foundation is a ripoff of Everquest, which the devs still seem hellbent on not moving on or really innovating on even after 18 years.

It's basically fan fiction at this point, so of course it's not going to have the same identity.

I remember the initial appeal of WoW. For me having played Everquest 1 and 2 and a few others in between. WoW was like playing one of my favorite console RPG's but with more depth. In those games like Final Fantasy 1-12 Breath of Fire 1-4 and such, I loved the storylines but always wanted to explore further than what the game would allow me. In WoW I could search all those nooks and crannies. Those little caves and grottos to find little easter eggs or surprises. Hints at a lore that expanded the world vast and wide.
I remember first time I was running through Darkshore and visited the Master's Glaive area. That creepy statue made me have all types of questions. But the problem which I more or less addressed elsewhere is that for all the potential the lore and story of WoW had/has, much of it's great mysteries are/have been largely wasted by not staying the course and better vetting ideas to only implement them when they go in line with the main theme and style of the game in the first place.

I know that's not always so easy because people have different ideas where a mystery might lead. However I think that a combination of things like deadlines and such led to many great mysteries just devolving into wasted potential.

[Clone]

You're forced to see it every time you come to see the gnome and all his meme quests. It stuck with me the most because of it.

Its an odd thing to split hairs over. My point still stands. Classic wow has tons of pop culture references. People are just more sensative now cause they're more modern memes.

Nah, people aren't more sensitive or more averse to some light heartedness. The pop culture references got more in your face they are no longer Easter eggs, but actually part of the overall narrative.