SPOILERS Aethas STILL trying to get in Jaina's good graces.

[Feanoro]

My critic towards the story comes from the fact that Blizzard treats the Horde either as a second fiddle to the alliance or make them straight up villains whose leaders always get killed. Me wishing that the alliance has to take the L for once is just keeping the balance considering no other MMO that has factions would treat one of them in a way the community feels like a failure. That is all I want. Something for the Horde to be proud of. That has nothing to do with wanting to delete the alliance. Know the difference between arrogance and pointing out bad writing.

This has got to be satire.

The story has been about and driven by the Horde since TBC. The lion's share of dev time goes into Horde content, as Blizz employees have openly stated. If you somehow failed to notice, all the expensive CGI focuses on the Horde. The Horde's in game victories have cinematics, the Horde gets exclusive content with no Alliance equivalent, and they even get writers and devs to create an alternate story path. Regardless of how that path ends, the effort to create it was not zero. There is NOTHING like that for Alliance. The Horde gets to raze cities and slaughter the Alliance with absolutely no consequences, not even an apology. Hell, they usually keep any gains and come out ahead or at least even, while the Alliance always is weakened. If that's your idea of losing, then yes, you are advocating the Alliance being deleted (and have said as much in the past).

The Alliance has been passively waiting to be attacked, suffering multiple genocidal attacks, betrayals of every agreement the Horde makes, cities blown off the map, and its named characters telling players that anything but bending over and taking is it is being just as bad. We are NEVER shown a victory, at best it's a passing remark in game, but far more likely to be one line in a book or a tweet. Most of those victories are Pyrrhic, instantly reversed, or rendered moot.

The one and only reason that the Horde doesn't win a war the way you want is that the Horde's goal is to exterminate the Alliance, while the Alliance is written as defensive and wanting peace. Since they will not drop the two faction business model, either the Horde has to lose via writer asspulls or the Horde's goal has to change. The reason they don't change that goal? Too many fans like you who want the Horde to be a bloodthirsty mob with genocidal lunatics in charge, slaughtering the Alliance. You want the Horde to start winning? Start by examining a win condition that ISN'T "destroy Alliance RAWR!"

[Grazrug]

Dead leaders are worse then nameless NPCs being killed. Also, the narrative ain't worth jack when the characters they try to build up get killed for no reason. There hasn't been any case of positive development since MoP. All the Horde is ever be used for is to become the doormat that is defeated by the Alliance. Which brings us back to Aethas and Jaina. He is the embodiement of everything that is wrong with the Horde story. It seems Blizzard hasn't learned from their mistakes even now.

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This has got to be satire.

The story has been about and driven by the Horde since TBC. The lion's share of dev time goes into Horde content, as Blizz employees have openly stated. If you somehow failed to notice, all the expensive CGI focuses on the Horde. The Horde's in game victories have cinematics, the Horde gets exclusive content with no Alliance equivalent, and they even get writers and devs to create an alternate story path. Regardless of how that path ends, the effort to create it was not zero. There is NOTHING like that for Alliance. The Horde gets to raze cities and slaughter the Alliance with absolutely no consequences, not even an apology. Hell, they usually keep any gains and come out ahead or at least even, while the Alliance always is weakened. If that's your idea of losing, then yes, you are advocating the Alliance being deleted (and have said as much in the past).

The Alliance has been passively waiting to be attacked, suffering multiple genocidal attacks, betrayals of every agreement the Horde makes, cities blown off the map, and its named characters telling players that anything but bending over and taking is it is being just as bad. We are NEVER shown a victory, at best it's a passing remark in game, but far more likely to be one line in a book or a tweet. Most of those victories are Pyrrhic, instantly reversed, or rendered moot.

The one and only reason that the Horde doesn't win a war the way you want is that the Horde's goal is to exterminate the Alliance, while the Alliance is written as defensive and wanting peace. Since they will not drop the two faction business model, either the Horde has to lose via writer asspulls or the Horde's goal has to change. The reason they don't change that goal? Too many fans like you who want the Horde to be a bloodthirsty mob with genocidal lunatics in charge, slaughtering the Alliance. You want the Horde to start winning? Start by examining a win condition that ISN'T "destroy Alliance RAWR!"

It seems you are reading my reasoning wrong on purpose to keep your agenda of "All Horde players are bad!" alive. Hopefully not all parts of the community are this close minded. Also the "no consequences" part is a straight up lie. The Horde has lost literally all terrirtory gains from Cataclysm back to what is was in Classic. Meaning once again the only land the Horde is allowed to keep beyond their starting zones is the Barrens. Please do yourself a favor and keep a fat check on what you write. Because you are just embarassing yourself.

[VladlTutushkin]

Dead leaders are worse then nameless NPCs being killed. Also, the narrative ain't worth jack when the characters they try to build up get killed for no reason. There hasn't been any case of positive development since MoP. All the Horde is ever be used for is to become the doormat that is defeated by the Alliance. Which brings us back to Aethas and Jaina. He is the embodiement of everything that is wrong with the Horde story. It seems Blizzard hasn't learned from their mistakes even now.

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It seems you are reading my reasoning wrong on purpose to keep your agenda of "All Horde players are bad!" alive. Hopefully not all parts of the community are this close minded. Also the "no consequences" part is a straight up lie. The Horde has lost literally all terrirtory gains from Cataclysm back to what is was in Classic. Meaning once again the only land the Horde is allowed to keep beyond their starting zones is the Barrens. Please do yourself a favor and keep a fat check on what you write. Because you are just embarassing yourself.

Do not even try to patronise anybody on this forum Erevien, people here have memory better than goldfishes and remember all the egregious, permaban worthy crap you said before. Not to mention your takes on official forums and Discord.

You have no right to advocate for reason or respect when you called for violence against developers, Alliance fans and not to mention several other groups you do not like. Aka in less fancy words dont try and teach people how to behave when you are probably the most erratic and rude poster on this site and several others.

[Raisei]

As I said I know that trolls are treated horribly narratively and always their attempts are framed as wrong.

That is just a try at muddling the truth. The trolls clearly and obviously engaged in numerous warcrimes against the people of Pandaria and other sovereign nations. This is a fact, it has nothing to do with framing. They are the villains. It is just that simple.

The deal with the Mogu (a race that enslaved the Pandaren for thousands of years until they finally freed themselves) does not in any way give them a righteous claim. The Mogu were just as bad as they are with Lei Shen being especially nuts.

You keep talking about their problems and plight, but how does that justify the attacks on other races? If they are refugees then they can try to ask for help. Yet they did not. Because in their eyes, it all belongs to them anyway. Hence their constant acts of agression. Why would we have pity with a race that acts this way?

Rastakhan didn't have involvement with it though

The moment Zul returned to Zandalar and Rastakhan did not immediatedly have him arrested or better yet delivered back to the Alliance it was clear that he did not give a crap what his advisor did to other nations. Ironically that would have prevented problems for Zandalar as well.
But as it happened it just made clear that Rastakhan did not care about any laws but his own and had no interest in working with other nations.

Would you blame entire Alliance for faults of Onyxia? Or Benedictus? How about Arthas? - heck we even have similar pararell with him and Terenas. It's a slippery slope as you see.

Onyxia was never a member of the Alliance, she was an infiltrating dragon that did more damage to the Alliance then anyone else...
Benedictus was a Twilight cultist, you might as well blame the Orcs for Gul'dan
Arthas? The guy that was controlled by a dead Orc you mean? Mhmm...

Sheltered or not, that doesn't give excuse an Alliance to assault them the way they did.

That is the second wanted criminal that has been given asylum in Zandalar. And I would remind you that Sylvanas was executing several attacks on the Alliance while they were hiding there. Was the Alliance just supposed to ignore that and hope she would get tired of plagueing cities?
That combined with the history the Alliance has with the Zandalari gives them ample excuse to attack them.

Have Alliance tried a diplomacy?

"Uhm, Rastakhan sir, could you give us that evil Banshee mass murderer you are keeping?"
"Nah, mon."
"Kay, we wait then."

The Zandalari have proven that they consider everyone else inferior, the Alliance had no reason to believe that diplomacy was even possible. And again the attacks on the Alliance were ongoing. You expect the Alliance to just sit around and take those while praying that the big troll king has an open ear for their pain? Come on.

No I just think you either don't get or don't want to acknowledge the full story behind troll conflicts. My impression was that since you don't care for them and just took the narrative hooks at face value you agree that they are evil and everything bad that happens to them is justified.

I do acknowledge the story. I just do not see how some sob story is supposed to justify their deeds.

Don't give me that. Every king in his place would do the same.

History is full with kings that did not. Or for fictional examples. Take Baelon Greyjoy in A Song of Ice and Fire.

Alliance already did a lot of damage and threathened to take entire faction as a hostage - their conditions were unacceptable and the way they handled this was laughable and tone deaf.

The thing is that nothing Rastakhan could do would have changed that. The city was taken at that point. All he could do was make it worse. Don't kid yourself, he only acted out of misplaced hubris, he did not care that many more of his subjects would have died.

"As rotten as Rastakhan"- Wow. No better example of showing your ignorance. Because Rastakhan's biggest crime was neglect and ignorance, but for the past 200 years he was upholding peaceful relations. And you're condemnding him for the actions of his servant. Rastakhan won't get King Theoden pass from you by the looks of it.

Peaceful relations with whom?

Canibalism means eating humanoid in WoW. And I found human soup to be funny joke - even in Diablo 2.

And? Eating "intelligent beings" vs. strictly humans isn't really making it any better?

Did you know that to this day Germany didn't sign peace treaty with Poland? Officially they're still in act of war.

As a german I have my doubts you understand what you are talking about. There was no Peace Treaty because germany was barely a sovereign nation after WW2, however the Potsdam Agreements and the 1990 Treaty served the same purpose. We are most certainly not in any state of war.

Peace treaty doesn't work the way you think. Unwilligness to sign it doesn't prohibit you from cooperation, and there are other reasons and political implications of signing it.

Actually, yes it does. Different from a surrender a peace treaty or permanent ceasefire declares that both parties acknowledge each others borders and will not act aggressively towards each other. Not signing it is a clear show that you mean to keep the war going.

You're talking about a video game. A video game where player doesn't really have any option to have any say on the narrative.

Yeah, I figured this would come. Did you forget that there was a Loyalist path for the players that wanted to keep following Sylvanas even AFTER she commited another war crime?
In that case you probably also forgot that this path was not in the game to start with. It was added later because your Horde fellows cried to Blizzard that they wanted it. Blizzard never expected that anyone would be supportive of the Banshee at this point. So yeah, in this specific point, you are wrong. Players most certainly did have a say on the narrative.

No, he is unpopular because he is not even a good racial leader. All his actions so far were in way dictated by how the other faction would react. If Baine would priotize well being of his Tauren above anything else (that includes his behaviour toward the Horde aswell), he would get a pass. But his fixation on Anduin is disturbing. Baine was all too happy to throw his people under the bus.

The only reason Baine did not immediatedly go against Sylvanas was that she very openly threatened his people. He is constantly trying to work for peace which would work in favour of his people too, unfortunately he is a single guy in the big Horde.

A choice that no real player was actually given. Send those complaints to Blizzard, not me.

See above. Besides Blizzard is shaping their stories to what they think will be popular with the players. They went with another faction war because there is a big chunk of your faction that finds nothing cooler then slaughtering some Nelf babies. Several of which are in this forum.

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Arrested and then saved. He was never in real danger. Because Deus Ex Machina Proudmoore was there to teleport everyone to safety.

How was he supposed to know that? Maybe he had hope, but his life was very much forfeit the moment he stepped up and that takes guts.

In fact it would not have been unlike Sylvanas to just shoot an arrow through his eye in front of everyone. Not like she was ever going to grant him a fair process anyway and she did kill that Forsaken that helped him instantly after all. The only reason he is alive is because the writers decided it, it does not change Baine's in-character courage.

I am confident that Blizzard will not ruin the happieness between Thalyssra and Bob. That is something all Horde leaders need. Alone time with their loved ones to start new families.

Considering the endless bitching of you and other about how the council is so peaceful and that the Horde is dead, I am convinced that the plans for the next faction war are in some drawer already. It's just a matter of when.

[chrisisvacant]

That is just a try at muddling the truth. The trolls clearly and obviously engaged in numerous warcrimes against the people of Pandaria and other sovereign nations. This is a fact, it has nothing to do with framing. They are the villains. It is just that simple.

The deal with the Mogu (a race that enslaved the Pandaren for thousands of years until they finally freed themselves) does not in any way give them a righteous claim. The Mogu were just as bad as they are with Lei Shen being especially nuts.

You keep talking about their problems and plight, but how does that justify the attacks on other races? If they are refugees then they can try to ask for help. Yet they did not. Because in their eyes, it all belongs to them anyway. Hence their constant acts of agression. Why would we have pity with a race that acts this way?



The moment Zul returned to Zandalar and Rastakhan did not immediatedly have him arrested or better yet delivered back to the Alliance it was clear that he did not give a crap what his advisor did to other nations. Ironically that would have prevented problems for Zandalar as well.
But as it happened it just made clear that Rastakhan did not care about any laws but his own and had no interest in working with other nations.



Onyxia was never a member of the Alliance, she was an infiltrating dragon that did more damage to the Alliance then anyone else...
Benedictus was a Twilight cultist, you might as well blame the Orcs for Gul'dan
Arthas? The guy that was controlled by a dead Orc you mean? Mhmm...



That is the second wanted criminal that has been given asylum in Zandalar. And I would remind you that Sylvanas was executing several attacks on the Alliance while they were hiding there. Was the Alliance just supposed to ignore that and hope she would get tired of plagueing cities?
That combined with the history the Alliance has with the Zandalari gives them ample excuse to attack them.



"Uhm, Rastakhan sir, could you give us that evil Banshee mass murderer you are keeping?"
"Nah, mon."
"Kay, we wait then."

The Zandalari have proven that they consider everyone else inferior, the Alliance had no reason to believe that diplomacy was even possible. And again the attacks on the Alliance were ongoing. You expect the Alliance to just sit around and take those while praying that the big troll king has an open ear for their pain? Come on.



I do acknowledge the story. I just do not see how some sob story is supposed to justify their deeds.



History is full with kings that did not. Or for fictional examples. Take Baelon Greyjoy in A Song of Ice and Fire.



The thing is that nothing Rastakhan could do would have changed that. The city was taken at that point. All he could do was make it worse. Don't kid yourself, he only acted out of misplaced hubris, he did not care that many more of his subjects would have died.



Peaceful relations with whom?



And? Eating "intelligent beings" vs. strictly humans isn't really making it any better?



As a german I have my doubts you understand what you are talking about. There was no Peace Treaty because germany was barely a sovereign nation after WW2, however the Potsdam Agreements and the 1990 Treaty served the same purpose. We are most certainly not in any state of war.



Actually, yes it does. Different from a surrender a peace treaty or permanent ceasefire declares that both parties acknowledge each others borders and will not act aggressively towards each other. Not signing it is a clear show that you mean to keep the war going.



Yeah, I figured this would come. Did you forget that there was a Loyalist path for the players that wanted to keep following Sylvanas even AFTER she commited another war crime?
In that case you probably also forgot that this path was not in the game to start with. It was added later because your Horde fellows cried to Blizzard that they wanted it. Blizzard never expected that anyone would be supportive of the Banshee at this point. So yeah, in this specific point, you are wrong. Players most certainly did have a say on the narrative.



The only reason Baine did not immediatedly go against Sylvanas was that she very openly threatened his people. He is constantly trying to work for peace which would work in favour of his people too, unfortunately he is a single guy in the big Horde.



See above. Besides Blizzard is shaping their stories to what they think will be popular with the players. They went with another faction war because there is a big chunk of your faction that finds nothing cooler then slaughtering some Nelf babies. Several of which are in this forum.

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How was he supposed to know that? Maybe he had hope, but his life was very much forfeit the moment he stepped up and that takes guts.

In fact it would not have been unlike Sylvanas to just shoot an arrow through his eye in front of everyone. Not like she was ever going to grant him a fair process anyway and she did kill that Forsaken that helped him instantly after all. The only reason he is alive is because the writers decided it, it does not change Baine's in-character courage.



Considering the endless bitching of you and other about how the council is so peaceful and that the Horde is dead, I am convinced that the plans for the next faction war are in some drawer already. It's just a matter of when.

Onyxia may have been a double agent but she definitely was a member of the Alliance as was quite clear when she was a permanent fixture on the alliance leadership dais the same way the Horde had a double agent in Varimathras.

[Feanoro]

It seems you are reading my reasoning wrong on purpose to keep your agenda of "All Horde players are bad!" alive.

It seems you didn't bother to read what I wrote at all. Then again, since according to you, I (and evidently a shadowy cabal of Alliance fans) send bribes to Blizzard developers (yeah, I or anyone here can really manage to bribe an AAA game studio ), misrepresenting my post is just another day in Bizarro World. Your attempt at lecturing me on behavior is laughable.

As to consequences, you claim the Horde had to return stolen lands. Tell me, if someone robs a bank then gives the money back, is he free to go his merry way? Of course not, a crime was committed and must be punished. If a country loses a war, does it simply say "Oh well, we lost. Back to business as usual"? Of course not, the winner imposes terms, usually reparations, sanctions, measures to prevent the loser from trying again.

I say again, the Horde has had NO consequences for its multiple wars of extermination.

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Considering the endless bitching of you and other about how the council is so peaceful and that the Horde is dead, I am convinced that the plans for the next faction war are in some drawer already. It's just a matter of when.

Exactly. They've already laid the groundwork with the latest cash grab... er, book.

[Ramz]

That is just a try at muddling the truth. The trolls clearly and obviously engaged in numerous warcrimes against the people of Pandaria and other sovereign nations. This is a fact, it has nothing to do with framing. They are the villains. It is just that simple.

The deal with the Mogu (a race that enslaved the Pandaren for thousands of years until they finally freed themselves) does not in any way give them a righteous claim. The Mogu were just as bad as they are with Lei Shen being especially nuts.

You keep talking about their problems and plight, but how does that justify the attacks on other races? If they are refugees then they can try to ask for help. Yet they did not. Because in their eyes, it all belongs to them anyway. Hence their constant acts of agression. Why would we have pity with a race that acts this way?

No, because except Pandaria they were working on their own ground. It's like saying that humans are in the wrong for wanting to push away orcs that are gathering in Redridge. Don't get me wrong I don't claim that everything trolls did is excusable, I'm saying that the narrative is extremely heavy-handed and their plight should've been acknowledged in some way, shape or form. That is all I'd want. That there would be a narrative change, that "they might went overboard there and there, and they should try to remedy those stuff, but those guys have a point".
Zul'Drak, Zul'Frarrak, Khaz'Modan didn't happen centuries ago. These are recent things.

The moment Zul returned to Zandalar and Rastakhan did not immediatedly have him arrested or better yet delivered back to the Alliance it was clear that he did not give a crap what his advisor did to other nations.

How about making investigation first? What if Zul was possessed (he was in a way by Mythrax)? Talanji said during Vol'Jin questline that Rastakhan was tempted by Zul's vision but gave him different instructions on how to handle things. Zul acted against his instructions. Rastkhan wasn't super blind and he did order investigations, then shortly after he was assasinated.

Ironically that would have prevented problems for Zandalar as well.

Not it wouldn't. Alliance wasn't interested in war with Zandalar or having any serious ire to the point of starting open confrontation. Not even once it was mentioned or hinted that the assault was because of Zandalari's past. Assault was to prevent Zandalari joining the Horde. And it was a very stupid thing to do, because as I wrote before they had a means to do it without wasting so many troops and resources. But Alliance is written as morally stupid unfortunately.

Onyxia was never a member of the Alliance, she was an infiltrating dragon that did more damage to the Alliance then anyone else...
Benedictus was a Twilight cultist, you might as well blame the Orcs for Gul'dan
Arthas? The guy that was controlled by a dead Orc you mean? Mhmm...

Zul was agent of the Old God - how is he different from Benedictus when he was working to take entire Zandalar down?
How is he different from Onyxia who wanted to destroy Stormwind from inside out?
How is he different from Arthas, when he commited crime of raising hand against his king, and being posseed by Mythrax?
It's literally the same story, just take away racial make-up.

That is the second wanted criminal that has been given asylum in Zandalar. And I would remind you that Sylvanas was executing several attacks on the Alliance while they were hiding there. Was the Alliance just supposed to ignore that and hope she would get tired of plagueing cities?
That combined with the history the Alliance has with the Zandalari gives them ample excuse to attack them.

Sylvanas wasn't sheltered there, she appeared three times but she didn't have a residence there. She didn't even appear in front of Rastakhan once. And frankly Rastakhan said it plainly that Horde's issues with Alliance is not his business, and he is not going to immediately kick Horde away because he could use them for his own benefits and IF they prove themselves, he would think what to do next. You also should know that lots of Horde members are part of various organisations. Should we also attack them by guilt of association?

That is the second wanted criminal that has been given asylum in Zandalar. And I would remind you that Sylvanas was executing several attacks on the Alliance while they were hiding there. Was the Alliance just supposed to ignore that and hope she would get tired of plagueing cities?
That combined with the history the Alliance has with the Zandalari gives them ample excuse to attack them.

I don't know. How about making diversion attack? Making it appear that they want to attack Zandalar, make all Horde gather on the island, then blow up ships and then attack Orgrimmar and take down Sylvanas? This way they could make Zandas and Horde bicker too because of the loss of ships, making Horde stuck on Zuldazar, and having free hand to do whatever without outright engaging with Zandalari. It was purely stupid move that went against the main Alliance interest, which was to take Sylvanas down.

"Uhm, Rastakhan sir, could you give us that evil Banshee mass murderer you are keeping?"
"Nah, mon."
"Kay, we wait then."

The Zandalari have proven that they consider everyone else inferior, the Alliance had no reason to believe that diplomacy was even possible. And again the attacks on the Alliance were ongoing. You expect the Alliance to just sit around and take those while praying that the big troll king has an open ear for their pain? Come on.

That's not how it works, lol. Diplomacy requires for you to have some form of deal to bribe other side to lean toward you rather than your opponent. What you described was "give me X or else!", which is amateurish and laughable.

If Alliance was smart they'd send some envoy to inform Rastakhan that his allies are untrustworthy and provide a proof that behind his back Goblins are mining Atal'Dazar. They had perfect opportiunity to expose the Horde and achieve their goal in sewering ties, and it was all they wanted.

History is full with kings that did not. Or for fictional examples. Take Baelon Greyjoy in A Song of Ice and Fire.

I didn't read/ watch GoT.

The thing is that nothing Rastakhan could do would have changed that. The city was taken at that point. All he could do was make it worse. Don't kid yourself, he only acted out of misplaced hubris, he did not care that many more of his subjects would have died.

Except he did care, this is why he decided to die rather than put his people under Alliance boot, because they decided to blackmail him and hold him at the gunpoint. He didn't want to play those games.

Peaceful relations with whom?

Ever since vanilla Zandalari were neutral if you didn't notice. They were present in STV on Yojamba isles, and in Zul'Drak. So you have quite a long period where they were peaceful. The difference was Cataclysm/MoP period.

And? Eating "intelligent beings" vs. strictly humans isn't really making it any better?

I don't see your point. You eat cows and they're intelligent beings too. But frankly, nevermind.

As a german I have my doubts you understand what you are talking about. There was no Peace Treaty because germany was barely a sovereign nation after WW2, however the Potsdam Agreements and the 1990 Treaty served the same purpose. We are most certainly not in any state of war.

They're, just like Japan and Russia are still technically in act of War. They don't war at the moment, but they didn't sign a peace treaty either.

Actually, yes it does. Different from a surrender a peace treaty or permanent ceasefire declares that both parties acknowledge each others borders and will not act aggressively towards each other. Not signing it is a clear show that you mean to keep the war going.

But you even have examples IRL of nations that warred and to this day didn't sign peace treaty. This is not the end of the World.

Yeah, I figured this would come. Did you forget that there was a Loyalist path for the players that wanted to keep following Sylvanas even AFTER she commited another war crime?
In that case you probably also forgot that this path was not in the game to start with. It was added later because your Horde fellows cried to Blizzard that they wanted it. Blizzard never expected that anyone would be supportive of the Banshee at this point. So yeah, in this specific point, you are wrong. Players most certainly did have a say on the narrative.

Don't act obtuse. I was not talking about questchain, but the whole narrative to begin with. You blame the players because devs decided to villanbat entire faction, and for compensation gave a small quest chain that didn't do anything. Because what does that change anyway? You still have to do Warfronts, dailies, and other content, you still interact with NPCs if you want to unravel the story. I didn't want Teldrassil, I didn't want to be villainbat yet again, and I didn't want for every move that I make to be morally corrupt. I do enjoy proper conflict, but not over the top like that. I prefer more ground-leveled ones, about politics, resources, common interests and conflicts of interests. Something that wouldn't just define team red and blue, but those sub-factions that are inside as well. Because I just don't believe that everyone would see eye to eye. They did try to play it around with Nelves coming to Anduin and wanting an assistance, and Anduin chosing to raid Zandas, maybe more in this direction. We want to do 'X' and they want to do "Y" make your choice. Instead we have total war of annihilation, which is beyond stupid.

The only reason Baine did not immediatedly go against Sylvanas was that she very openly threatened his people. He is constantly trying to work for peace which would work in favour of his people too, unfortunately he is a single guy in the big Horde.

Give me one example what Baine did for his people that was not involving Alliance at any point. Just one. I was willing to give him benefit of a doubt with the Sunwalker expedition, but turnes out it was Dezco's initiation, not Baine's. So what Baine did for his people, that only had their business in mind.

See above. Besides Blizzard is shaping their stories to what they think will be popular with the players. They went with another faction war because there is a big chunk of your faction that finds nothing cooler then slaughtering some Nelf babies. Several of which are in this forum.

Isn't that a contradiction to what you wrote above? Isn't the entire quest chain with Saurfang a response becuase a majority was upset with it? I mean sure, there are players who like to kill anything that moves for shiz and giggles. But Majority of people I know were deeply upset and they actually wanted to see how Horde would be under Vol'Jin-like guidance. They wanted a positive story, and leave Alliance some time to initiate things.

[Grazrug]

It seems you didn't bother to read what I wrote at all. Then again, since according to you, I (and evidently a shadowy cabal of Alliance fans) send bribes to Blizzard developers (yeah, I or anyone here can really manage to bribe an AAA game studio ), misrepresenting my post is just another day in Bizarro World. Your attempt at lecturing me on behavior is laughable.

As to consequences, you claim the Horde had to return stolen lands. Tell me, if someone robs a bank then gives the money back, is he free to go his merry way? Of course not, a crime was committed and must be punished. If a country loses a war, does it simply say "Oh well, we lost. Back to business as usual"? Of course not, the winner imposes terms, usually reparations, sanctions, measures to prevent the loser from trying again.

I say again, the Horde has had NO consequences for its multiple wars of extermination.

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Exactly. They've already laid the groundwork with the latest cash grab... er, book.

Neither Hillsbrad nor Silverpine were stolen. Both were rightful Forsaken turf. Blizzard made those zone Horde fully in Cataclysm because they lacked enough zones to level in without enemy faction interference on pvp servers. The Horde had nothing minus the Barrens back then. This was about fairness. Reversing their status now brings the bad things back. Also thank you you confirmed the Alliance won the war that just further strengthens my argument.

[Feanoro]

Neither Hillsbrad nor Silverpine were stolen. Both were rightful Forsaken turf.

The lands were owned by the still living small remnant of Lordaeron. The Forsaken decided to murder those, despite their claims resting on them being Lordaeron citizens themselves. In doing so, they stole the land.

Blizzard made those zone Horde fully in Cataclysm because they lacked enough zones to level in without enemy faction interference on pvp servers. The Horde had nothing minus the Barrens back then. This was about fairness. Reversing their status now brings the bad things back.

Sure, it was for gameplay reasons, no one is arguing that. Do tell, were you planning to talk about oh say Ashenvale? Were you planning to address anything else I listed, or just hide behind cherry picked zones for Cata gameplay?

Also thank you you confirmed the Alliance won the war that just further strengthens my argument.

Still haven't brushed up on reading comprehension, I see. I asked you what happens when a country loses a war, stating that normally there are consequences. The Horde has yet to suffer so much as having to mumble an apology for multiple wars of extermination.

[Grazrug]

The lands were owned by the still living small remnant of Lordaeron. The Forsaken decided to murder those, despite their claims resting on them being Lordaeron citizens themselves. In doing so, they stole the land.

Sure, it was for gameplay reasons, no one is arguing that. Do tell, were you planning to talk about oh say Ashenvale? Were you planning to address anything else I listed, or just hide behind cherry picked zones for Cata gameplay?

Still haven't brushed up on reading comprehension, I see. I asked you what happens when a country loses a war, stating that normally there are consequences. The Horde has yet to suffer so much as having to mumble an apology for multiple wars of extermination.

You mistake my intentions. I have no ill feelings if the Horde would fully leave Ashenvale to the night elves. That was the agreement after SoO. The night elves have been treated worse enough and it is some time they get their due. Growing a new world tree is a good start.

Back to Aethas. Horde players hate him for the same reason they hate Baine. Despite us making our voices heard Blizzard intends to push these characters who are largley unpopular. I hope this gets fixed when the trade post goes live.

[Combatbutler]

Aethas gonna Aethas, why the hell waste any time on Jaina? If he wants a higher standing in Dalaran it is time to focus on the next generation of humans in that city, the old council is pretty much nearing their natural expiring rate, so just sit it all out, after all what are a few decades to someone, who lives quite a few thousand years.

[Grazrug]

Aethas gonna Aethas, why the hell waste any time on Jaina? If he wants a higher standing in Dalaran it is time to focus on the next generation of humans in that city, the old council is pretty much nearing their natural expiring rate, so just sit it all out, after all what are a few decades to someone, who lives quite a few thousand years.

Considering minus Kalec all council members are humans, Aethas can outlive them all. If he want to get in someones good graces and ties relationship to the Kirin Tor try to seduce Khadgar instead. He is far above faction politics.

[Darth-Piekus]

After seeing 25 pages of this thread and checking many others from time to time from Cataclysm till today all I can say is that some of you are salty. Any character that goes against what the Horde organisation should be in your headcannon mind makes you salty. It all started in the Wotlk prepatch.

1) First you blamed Thrall of being too soft wanting a true orc.
2) Then during Wotlk it was that vile Varian Wrynn who made the mistake of exposing all that bs in Undercity.
3) Then it was Voljin who dared to warn Thrall what a huge mistake he was about to do.
4)Also how dare the Kirin Tor and Kalecgos interfere defending Theramore. The Blue Dragon convoy had it coming for daring having that Iris which we only wanted to borrow.
5) Then Jaina must have been a dreadlord or going mad. After all Theramore had it coming.
6) Screw Baine. #Garroshdidnothingwrong.
7) Voljin had that assasination coming
8) Then Taran Zhu is evil for trying to expel the Horde from the valley.
9)Then Wrathion is an asshole for thinking rational and picking the most sensible side.
10) Also damn these rebels for going against #Garroshdidnothingwrong. Then damn that Azeroth for going against The #IronHordedidnothingwrong.
11) #Thetreehaditcoming and #Agoodwar.
12) Screw Baine and Saurfang. #Sylvannasdidnothingwrong.
13) Screw Aethas. He was totally innocent and the whole Council should apologise to him and the whole blood elf race.

[Varodoc]

After seeing 25 pages of this thread and checking many others from time to time from Cataclysm till today all I can say is that some of you are salty. Any character that goes against what the Horde organisation should be in your headcannon mind makes you salty. It all started in the Wotlk prepatch.

1) First you blamed Thrall of being too soft wanting a true orc.
2) Then during Wotlk it was that vile Varian Wrynn who made the mistake of exposing all that bs in Undercity.
3) Then it was Voljin who dared to warn Thrall what a huge mistake he was about to do.
4)Also how dare the Kirin Tor and Kalecgos interfere defending Theramore. The Blue Dragon convoy had it coming for daring having that Iris which we only wanted to borrow.
5) Then Jaina must have been a dreadlord or going mad. After all Theramore had it coming.
6) Screw Baine. #Garroshdidnothingwrong.
7) Voljin had that assasination coming
8) Then Taran Zhu is evil for trying to expel the Horde from the valley.
9)Then Wrathion is an asshole for thinking rational and picking the most sensible side.
10) Also damn these rebels for going against #Garroshdidnothingwrong. Then damn that Azeroth for going against The #IronHordedidnothingwrong.
11) #Thetreehaditcoming and #Agoodwar.
12) Screw Baine and Saurfang. #Sylvannasdidnothingwrong.
13) Screw Aethas. He was totally innocent and the whole Council should apologise to him and the whole blood elf race.

That's because a portion of the Horde fanbase, at least on this forum (which is obviously Horde-dominated), has ironically misunderstood the Warcraft Horde in its entirety. They think that the Horde is supposed to be the Warcraft equivalent of the Sith Empire from SWTOR or the Chaos forces from Warhammer, i.e. a warmongering faction that does badass and cool stuff (like genocide, slavery, forced mind-control) without caring about the consequences.

So when they see a character like Baine, or Aethas, or Saurfang, or Vol'jin, or even Thrall (in MoP/BfA), they cannot understand why such a character would act the way they do. They do not understand why a Horde character would DARE go against the Horde war machine and help the Alliance. Because they fundamentally don't understand that the Horde is not supposed to be an evil war machine, it's supposed to have changed under Thrall and become redeemed/reformed. The Horde of Warcraft is not supposed to be about conquest like the Sith Empire, it's supposed to be about peace, renewal, hope.

So, in truth, it is actually Baine, Aethas, Saurfang, Vol'jin, and Thrall who represent the TRUE spirit of the Horde. It is the warmongers like Sylvanas, Garrosh, Gallywix, the warmongers they praise so much, that actually misunderstood the Horde in its entirety and corrupted it.

So, in short, Baine represents the heart and soul of the Horde. And the people who accuse him of treason on this very forum, are accusing the very beating heart of the Horde.

Because the Horde is not the Sith Empire and the Horde is not the armies of Chaos Gods. The Horde is honorable. The Horde is good. The Horde is noble. What Garrosh and Sylvanas did is not behaviour worthy of the Horde, which is why they were kicked out.

These guys who are disappointed by the Horde thought they were playing the Sith Empire lmfao, they didn't understand what the Warcraft Horde is at all. The Horde is a family, Garrosh and Sylvanas actively disrespected that family (relegating non-orcs in ghettos for Garrosh, literally attacking Thunder Bluff for Sylvanas).

It is ironic that the Horde always needs a Human help to sort out their own mess though.

[Grazrug]

That's because a portion of the Horde fanbase, at least on this forum (which is obviously Horde-dominated), has ironically misunderstood the Warcraft Horde in its entirety. They think that the Horde is supposed to be the Warcraft equivalent of the Sith Empire from SWTOR or the Chaos forces from Warhammer, i.e. a warmongering faction that does badass and cool stuff (like genocide, slavery, forced mind-control) without caring about the consequences.

So when they see a character like Baine, or Aethas, or Saurfang, or Vol'jin, or even Thrall (in MoP/BfA), they cannot understand why such a character would act the way they do. They do not understand why a Horde character would DARE go against the Horde war machine and help the Alliance. Because they fundamentally don't understand that the Horde is not supposed to be an evil war machine, it's supposed to have changed under Thrall and become redeemed/reformed. The Horde of Warcraft is not supposed to be about conquest like the Sith Empire, it's supposed to be about peace, renewal, hope.

So, in truth, it is actually Baine, Aethas, Saurfang, Vol'jin, and Thrall who represent the TRUE spirit of the Horde. It is the warmongers like Sylvanas, Garrosh, Gallywix, the warmongers they praise so much, that actually misunderstood the Horde in its entirety and corrupted it.

So, in short, Baine represents the heart and soul of the Horde. And the people who accuse him of treason on this very forum, are accusing the very beating heart of the Horde.

Because the Horde is not the Sith Empire and the Horde is not the armies of Chaos Gods. The Horde is honorable. The Horde is good. The Horde is noble. What Garrosh and Sylvanas did is not behaviour worthy of the Horde, which is why they were kicked out.

These guys who are disappointed by the Horde thought they were playing the Sith Empire lmfao, they didn't understand what the Warcraft Horde is at all. The Horde is a family, Garrosh and Sylvanas actively disrespected that family (relegating non-orcs in ghettos for Garrosh, literally attacking Thunder Bluff for Sylvanas).

It is ironic that the Horde always needs a Human help to sort out their own mess though.

No. That is not true. The majority time of their existence people like Thrall and Baine were the minority. This is what Saurfang himself refers to when he speaks about "Blackhand's bloody legacy" from the true Horde to the Iron Horde and the Fel Horde. War and conquest made them strong. Blackhand, Doomhammer, Ner'zhul, Garrosh, Sylvanas, Kargath. They hade the same goal. Take over the world and eredicate the alliance. Blizzard has earned their criticism because they weren't able to communicate property what they want the factions to be. And that is why the majority on this forum cling to the past. The "honorable" Horde is an idea with no ground. Because that is what we remember the most. Because the Devs themselves pushed it for a very long time. If they don't want us to support the warmongers they should stop digging them up every 4 years.

[Varodoc]

No. That is not true. The majority time of their existence people like Thrall and Baine were the minority..

This is objectively proven wrong by the fact that the only Horde forces who supported Garrosh in the end were his own xenophobic Kor'kron and the Blackfuse company, and the only Horde forces who supported Sylvanas in the end were the Forsaken, the Mag'har (refugees from a broken world), and the Bilgewater cartel.

War and conquest made them strong.

Last I checked, didn't all these Hordes you mentioned face pathetic and miserable fates and were pretty much wiped out from the planet?

So much for that "war and conquest made them strong" rhetoric that exists only in your headcanon. I'm sure that "war and conquest" made the orcs strong when they ended up fighting as worthless slaves in the humans' internment camp pits or just straight up slaughtered by the adventurers.

Look everyone, look how strong the orcs became after their wars of conquest:

Blizzard has earned their criticism because they weren't able to communicate property what they want the factions to be. And that is why the majority on this forum cling to the past. The "honorable" Horde is an idea with no ground. Because that is what we remember the most. Because the Devs themselves pushed it for a very long time. If they don't want us to support the warmongers they should stop digging them up every 4 years.

You're playing the sequel of WC3, and in WC3 the Horde turned over a new leaf, this is a fact. You were never supposed to or entitled to play an evil faction.

[Grazrug]

This is objectively proven wrong by the fact that the only Horde forces who supported Garrosh in the end were his own xenophobic Kor'kron and the Blackfuse company, and the only Horde forces who supported Sylvanas in the end were the Forsaken, the Mag'har (refugees from a broken world), and the Bilgewater cartel.



Last I checked, didn't all these Hordes you mentioned face pathetic and miserable fates and were pretty much wiped out from the planet?

So much for that "war and conquest made them strong" rhetoric that exists only in your headcanon. I'm sure that "war and conquest" made the orcs strong when they ended up fighting as worthless slaves in the humans' internment camp pits or just straight up slaughtered by the adventurers.

Look everyone, look how strong the orcs became after their wars of conquest:






You're playing the sequel of WC3, and in WC3 the Horde turned over a new leaf, this is a fact. You were never supposed to or entitled to play an evil faction.

It is up for the Horde community to decide what we want to be and what we are entitled to. "Horde bad" had been used by Blizzard any time they run out of neutral villains to be defeated by both sides. I say it is about time Blizzard drops the act and sticks to their own marketing strategy. The majority of players play Horde because they want to be badass, strong, warring an all such things with darker themes. The average good guys already exist even without us. It is called the Alliance.

And while we are at it. Conquest is a matter of perspective. Did Blizzard frame the humans as being bad just because they took Lordaeron from the Amani and Stormwind from the Gnolls?

And don't get me started on Saurfang's rebellion. He said the majority of the Horde sided with Sylvanas and that he was afraid their forces even with the help of the alliance might not be enough to take Orgrimmar. If Sylvanas hadn't abandoned the Horde after she killed Saurfang then the battle might have turned the odds in her favor.

[Arlette]

The problem with posters like Grazrug is that they constantly scream about how the Horde is never written as anything other than villains to be the doormat of the Alliance (Interestingly ignoring how, yes, the Alliance usually wins by the very end...after all their stuff is destroyed, and only because if the Horde won, it would be the actual destruction of an entire player faction) but whenever anybody tries to point out the multitude of characters and their arcs that directly contradict that claim...

Literally every single one of them are discounted as traitors or not really what the Horde stands for, according to them.

There is no winning with this kind of cognitive dissonance.

Because the actual thing they want is that they want the Horde to continue to be evil and suffer no consequence for it. Just pointless wanton destruction that is both horrendously narratively boring and also would actively turn off half of the playerbase.

When a large percentage of Horde-aligned players are told they're not actually part of the 'Horde community' (I don't know what that even means, please play another game and take a break) and the characters they like are traitors and don't count as Horde characters...

Perhaps you're the problem.

I don't know how many other ways Blizzard can spell it out to you that the spirit of the Horde is not one of violent warmongering monsters that want to destroy everybody. It has not been so since Warcraft 2 and you're either totally ignorant of the lore or completely delusional if you think ALL of the 21 years of stories from Warcraft 3 until now weren't waving gigantic banners saying that the spirit of the Horde are not characters like Garrosh or post-Wrath Sylvanas and are Thrall, Saurfang, Baine, Vol'jin, Lor'themar, ect.

Or hell, even Aethas, since this thread was supposed to be about him and has been constantly driven off topic by the screeching of the faction war, a discussion that never goes anywhere and ruins every conversation.

- - - Updated - - -

Blizzard has earned their criticism because they weren't able to communicate property what they want the factions to be.

Twenty. One. Years. Of. Stories.

"Well then who do the warmongers come up again every few years in the Horde?" I donno, perhaps a commentary on how far the Horde has come and how their origins as mindless bloodthirsty monsters that were a slave race to space demons was bad, actually? You know, actual analysis and self-reflection by characters who have sorted pasts that they've not proud of 100% of? And the chance to be better after growing when the opportunity presents itself?

This isn't LotR or WoT or ASOIAF dude, it's like an 8th grader's fanfiction level of quality. This was literally Saurfang's entire plotline for BfA. How much more clearer can they shout out the idea for you.

[Varodoc]

It is up for the Horde community to decide what we want to be and what we are entitled to.

You are not entitled to anything but access to the game beyond level 20, which is given by your subscription, and access to the latest expansion, which is given by your purchase of the latest expansion. You don't even own your account and Blizzard can shut down the game whenever they want and your entire account gets nuked, just look at what happened in China WoW.

The idea that you are entitled to decide what the Horde, one of the cornerstone of the franchise, is supposed to be is hilarious. The only ones who are entitled to this are Blizzard and Blizzard decided that those like Vol'jin, Baine, and Thrall represent the true heart and soul of th Horde.

The majority of players play Horde because they want to be badass, strong, warring an all such things with darker themes.

The majority of players play Horde because its racials are broken, which led Blizzard to introduce cross-faction instances because the Alliance endgame was pretty much dead.

And while we are at it. Conquest is a matter of perspective. Did Blizzard frame the humans as being bad just because they took Lordaeron from the Amani and Stormwind from the Gnolls?

Irrelevant, those are neutral races, conquering them is not a problem for Blizzard. The orcs were not framed badly for conquering the lands of the quillboar and you will remember that the forsaken and blood elves also took part in the Troll Wars.

He said the majority of the Horde sided with Sylvanas

He never said this.

and that he was afraid their forces even with the help of the alliance might not be enough to take Orgrimmar.

Yeah, because Orgrimmar, as stated by Baine in MoP, is one of the most formidable fortresses on Azeroth (so even a numerically larger army can lose), and the Forsaken excel at defence with their blight nuke tactics. This doesn't mean anything in terms of numbers. Defenders always have a natural advantage over the attackers (for obvious reasons), which is why the attackers usually have larger armies than the defenders to even the odds.

[Grazrug]

The problem with posters like Grazrug is that they constantly scream about how the Horde is never written as anything other than villains to be the doormat of the Alliance (Interestingly ignoring how, yes, the Alliance usually wins by the very end...after all their stuff is destroyed) but whenever anybody tries to point out the multitude of characters and their arcs that directly contradict that claim...

Literally every single one of them are discounted as traitors or not really what the Horde stands for, according to them.

There is no winning with this kind of cognitive dissonance.

Because the actual thing they want is that they want the Horde to continue to be evil and suffer no consequence for it. Just pointless wanton destruction that is both horrendously narratively boring and also would actively turn off half of the playerbase.

I stand by the opinion that losing established lore characters is worse then losing cities. The Horde cast is currently very depleted because of the losses we suffered since wotlk.
Kael'thas(Because technically speaking he was still the blood elf leader before we killed him in the raid).
Dranosh
Cairne
Garrosh
Nazgrim
Zaela
Vol'jin
Sylvanas
Rastakhan
Gallywix
Saurfang

That leaves a huge hole behind that has to be filled with secondary characters like Rokhan and Gazlowe. People who have the barest minimum of lore for them and never appeared in flashy cinematics.

Now look at the alliance. Varian died yes but he went out in the most epic cutscene you can imagine. Not to mention half of Stormwind had to be moved to make room for the memorial and his tomb. Magni? Became the speaker of Azeroth and was our guide in Bfa up until we defeated N'zoth. Malfurion? Is asleep until Ysera did he rjob and will return for sure. Bolvar? Became the frkn lich king and has authority over the knights of the ebon blade. Jaina? Miss perfect who carried the alliance war campaign on her back.

There is a lack of parity here. The Horde lost their ability to feel faction pride minus the times we are forced to aid the alliance at defeating the evil part of ourselves. That is why the Horde players lost all sense of care for the story since it is obvious Blizzard doesn't treat us even half as serious as the blue team. Being the bad guy is only a hindering when you lose.