Seriously, DO SOMETHING, stop punishing players!

[Ringthane]

Hello, we are Blizzard, and we will do everything you, and you alone, say to do, OP, because our lives are so empty and routine, we do nothing but hang around on fan forums all day, waiting for someone to show us the error of our ways and give us guidance on how to make our game work. We thank you for shining a light on our deficiencies as developers and hope that in future we come closer to meeting your expectations.

... Said no Blizzard employee ever.

[Relapses]

Stop punishing players by punishing them even more egregiously, eh?

You should run for office, you could get elected to Congress with that level of double talk.

[tomten]

Hello, we are Blizzard, and we will do everything you, and you alone, say to do, OP, because our lives are so empty and routine, we do nothing but hang around on fan forums all day, waiting for someone to show us the error of our ways and give us guidance on how to make our game work. We thank you for shining a light on our deficiencies as developers and hope that in future we come closer to meeting your expectations.

... Said no Blizzard employee ever.

You know mmochamp had actual blue posters before right? With actual official title here and verified GM/CMs?

[Cronovey]

Stop spinning my words.
No one is forced to stay........ PAST original key timer. If you have signed up for something- you have to stay for full duration. Same thing happens in Solo Shuffle.

You're absolutely forcing people to stay at this point. Let's say you put together a group, and about 10 minutes in to a Tyrannical Halls of Valor run (38 minute timer) it becomes apparently that your healer just can't keep up with the damage on the tank. Maybe the tank is a little undergeared, maybe the healer is getting some lag, etc. It's apparent that you're not going to make the timer because it's taken you 10 minutes to get to Hymdall and there's pretty much zero chance that the tank is going to survive Hyrja who is an absolute monster tank killer while you have a weak tank or healer, and you're looking at an hour plus run for what should be done in under 38 minutes.

Your suggestion traps those 3 DPS in the run for another 28 minutes for something they're clearly not going to time for a key that is going to be depleted anyways. Terrible idea. You're now wasting 3 to 4 other players' time because of your refusal to admit to a dead keystone.

[Lucetia]

Stop punishing players for wanting to play your game, Blizzard.
Started AV +18 > tank dies on first boss > we CR him > in same moment DPS leaves = deplated.
Started Temple +16 > healer dies on trash (before first boss) > DPS leaves = deplated.
Started NO +15 > healer gets "dc" (he was back by the time our 2 dpsers left).

STOP PUNISHING PEOPLE FOR PLAYING YOUR GAME!

Your issue has absolutely nothing to do with Blizzard. This is a player base thing. Players find this acceptable so they do it.

There is a solution out there, however seems like you don't want it. It's called stop pugging and run with people you know and trust. When pugging your chances of someone leaving is around 50%. If you wipe / die it's all how you handle it. Majority of the time people who complain about leavers have someone start yelling in chat at the ones who died, etc.

Run with people you know and trust. You mentioned d/c earlier. You can still do the dungeon until they reconnect and it doesn't ruin the key. There's been multiple times I've been in a group where someone d/c'ed and we continued until they got back with zero problems.

[Palapop]

There is no way in hell all of the abusable suggestions you gave should be implemented.

You tell Blizzard to not punish the players by giving the power of punishment to the players themselves? Imagine being banned for days because you got voted out of a group. Do you realize how many grossly toxic people are playing this game with you? They do not deserve power to rob others of what they paid for (access to the game).

Vote would be available only after being offline for X amount of time. Or just sitting AFK...? There are many options that could make it work.

- - - Updated - - -

You're absolutely forcing people to stay at this point. Let's say you put together a group, and about 10 minutes in to a Tyrannical Halls of Valor run (38 minute timer) it becomes apparently that your healer just can't keep up with the damage on the tank. Maybe the tank is a little undergeared, maybe the healer is getting some lag, etc. It's apparent that you're not going to make the timer because it's taken you 10 minutes to get to Hymdall and there's pretty much zero chance that the tank is going to survive Hyrja who is an absolute monster tank killer while you have a weak tank or healer, and you're looking at an hour plus run for what should be done in under 38 minutes.

Your suggestion traps those 3 DPS in the run for another 28 minutes for something they're clearly not going to time for a key that is going to be depleted anyways. Terrible idea. You're now wasting 3 to 4 other players' time because of your refusal to admit to a dead keystone.

Forcing people to stay for the duration of the key time- yes.

People are forced to stay for the full duration of Solo Shuffle match. Which could take up to 40 mins in extreme situations.

If it's absolutely obvious that people don't have enough gear for it- they can also just vote to forfeit the key as someone has suggested already. Which is great suggestion too!

[Richardbro]

I have gotten KSM the last 4 seasons by pugging (only seen around 10-15% of keys being depleted or people leaving) f you pug anything above a +15 there is a higher chance of depleted keys and people leaving. I believe it's perfectly acceptable that higher keys are more suited to guildmates or a group of trusted friends.

[Palapop]

Your issue has absolutely nothing to do with Blizzard. This is a player base thing. Players find this acceptable so they do it.

There is a solution out there, however seems like you don't want it. It's called stop pugging and run with people you know and trust. When pugging your chances of someone leaving is around 50%. If you wipe / die it's all how you handle it. Majority of the time people who complain about leavers have someone start yelling in chat at the ones who died, etc.

Run with people you know and trust. You mentioned d/c earlier. You can still do the dungeon until they reconnect and it doesn't ruin the key. There's been multiple times I've been in a group where someone d/c'ed and we continued until they got back with zero problems.

Read my earlier posts. It has to do with Blizzard because they are the ones who deplate your key after someone leaves your key or even gets DCed.

Heck, even servers can crush and you lose your key. How many THOUSANDS of times that happened to people? When they give "unscheduled" server restart (like when we had this wednesday evening in Europe. They give warning only 15 mins before servers shut down. How many thousands were in mid of their dun at that moment?)


Yep... tonight in my run heal DCed. Came back 5 mins later but it was too late obv...

- - - Updated - - -

I have gotten KSM the last 4 seasons by pugging (only seen around 10-15% of keys being depleted or people leaviing) f you pug anything above a +15 there is a higher chance of depleted keys and people leaving. I am fine with higher keys being more suited to guilds and a group of trusted friends.

Higher keys can be easily pugged. Would you still be fine if keyholder wasn't punished for trusting PUGers?

[Kikazz]

"banning" them from using lfd tool = deserter debuff.

.

im not apposed to leavers getting a deserter debuff that increases in time for the amount of keys they leave, aka if they leave 1 key nothing
leave 2 keys 30 mins, leave 3 its 1 hour, leave 4 in a 24 hour period its 3 hours.

cascading punishment.

but where do you draw the line, after the first boss or if you walk in and someone screws up and wies the group instantly, and then repeats it, and you dont progress.

i honestly do not think people should be punished for the inteptitude of the group.

as for voting people out, that stuff can go die in a fire, it was the worst addition to the game, outside of LFR, in LFD it just gets abused for trolling and being toxic.

- - - Updated - - -

If you purposely leave and/or harm someones free time/play time/experience/rating- you deserve to be punished/restricted.

It's implemented within social aspect of the game (via social contract), but also in PVP solo shuffle where you get negative points AND are restricted from queueing for certain amount of time. And if same/similar behavior is repeated certain amount of time, you might get some other restrictions too.

agreed but if your undergeared or clearly not performing in the content for a group you joined?

are you saying its alright for Blizzard to ban you for wasting peoples time? for inviting them and failing?

[Ryzeth]

Give bans/restrictions to people voted out of the dungeon. Yeah I can't possibly see that being abused in any way.
Don't deplete key if someone leaves before time. Yeah can't possibly see that being abused either.


#3 is about the only worthwhile solution, similar to how Grifts in D3 work.


"Quit punishing players!"
Suggests multiple "solutions" that pretty blatantly punishes players.


The fact you're so outraged at this is silly. If you don't want to be 'punished' for failure, then get better at the game? Vet your groups better? Find actual people to play with instead of pugging everything? This is a multiplayer game, after all.

[Temp name]

If you punish the first to leave, then people will just mislay to make someone else leave. Pull 3 extra packs whenever tank pulls, die to every mechanic, go afk.. There are plenty of ways to fuck the key without leaving, and now you are literally rewarding players for doing it by *not* giving them the punishment.

"oh you can just have a vote kick system"
Like the one in normal/heroics? That is abused CONSTANTLY? great fucking idea, no way that'll get abused.

[Ielenia]

STOP PUNISHING PEOPLE FOR PLAYING YOUR GAME!

People aren't punished for playing the game.

1. Give 1/3/5/7... days RESTRICTION from using LFD tool to person who leaves dungeon before timer runs out (or gets voted out).

So if an emergency happens and forces me away from the computer, I won't be able to use the LFD tool for 1/3/5/7 days?
So if I get DC'ed and the group disbands before I return, I won't be able to use the LFD tool for 1/3/5/7 days?

2. DONT deplate key lvl if someone leaves before timer ends.

You really can't see the abuse this would cause?

Someone invested time into that +15, 17, 20, 22.... key. They shouldn't waste time to get lower RNG key if something goes wrong. People should be able to keep their key level. If they want lower lvl > they talk to NPC in Valdrakken.

No. Just because you "put effort" into something, doesn't mean you should be automatically be handed things. If you fail to accomplish the task. Running M+ is a risk/reward thing, i.e., finish the dungeon in time, you get higher key, fail to finish the dungeon in time, you get a lower key.

Not to mention, from what I read in your post, you didn't "put effort" at all. Just queueing isn't "putting effort". To claim you "put effort" you should've said that you checked the group leader's IO and m+ ratings, as well as those in the group. Did you?

3. Make us choose dungeon difficulty on "key console" before we even start the dungeon.

Your key dictates the difficulty. That's the whole point about the keys.

4. Give us option to vote to "forfeit" the key so that group may disband without any consequences/punishes if it's obvious that healer/tank/dpsers can't pull numbers.

Nope. Again, risk/reward thing. If you forfeit, for whatever reason, then you key level should drop.

Wasted whole weekend evening into Qing into grps just to leave the dun before killing first boss.

Then make your own group. Or participate only in friends/guild groups if you want to minimize those issues.

[Palapop]

im not apposed to leavers getting a deserter debuff that increases in time for the amount of keys they leave, aka if they leave 1 key nothing
leave 2 keys 30 mins, leave 3 its 1 hour, leave 4 in a 24 hour period its 3 hours.

cascading punishment.

but where do you draw the line, after the first boss or if you walk in and someone screws up and wies the group instantly, and then repeats it, and you dont progress.

i honestly do not think people should be punished for the inteptitude of the group.

Non of that has happened tonight. And even after 1 wipe, many keys can be completed even on +2.
And as I have edited my original post already, "ban" is in fact, just a deserter debuff. Which would last for longer period of time. (they are still free to use /2, /4 as means to gather their group)

agreed but if your undergeared or clearly not performing in the content for a group you joined?

are you saying its alright for Blizzard to ban you for wasting peoples time? for inviting them and failing?

Nope. I have never said that.

And again, you (and many others) hang yourself for 1 word (ban) as last resort to bash my opinion.

Everyone who joins group (or invites someone) can always inspect others and check their m+ score.

"Ban" (longer deserter debuff) is for someone who repeated same thing 5, 10, 15... times. I'm 100% sure there are MANY who did exactly in pugs.

And if group doesn't bring the numbers, whole group can vote to forfeit the key, leaving it without any bad consequences.

- - - Updated - - -

Give bans/restrictions to people voted out of the dungeon. Yeah I can't possibly see that being abused in any way.
Don't deplete key if someone leaves before time. Yeah can't possibly see that being abused either.


#3 is about the only worthwhile solution, similar to how Grifts in D3 work.


"Quit punishing players!"
Suggests multiple "solutions" that pretty blatantly punishes players.


The fact you're so outraged at this is silly. If you don't want to be 'punished' for failure, then get better at the game? Vet your groups better? Find actual people to play with instead of pugging everything? This is a multiplayer game, after all.

Read whole lines. Dont stick to ban/vote words without reading whole concept and "conditions".
It makes your "argument" irrelevant.

- - - Updated - - -

If you punish the first to leave, then people will just mislay to make someone else leave. Pull 3 extra packs whenever tank pulls, die to every mechanic, go afk.. There are plenty of ways to fuck the key without leaving, and now you are literally rewarding players for doing it by *not* giving them the punishment.

"oh you can just have a vote kick system"
Like the one in normal/heroics? That is abused CONSTANTLY? great fucking idea, no way that'll get abused.

That might happen, yes. But still the number of "ghosters" would be reduced significantly.

- - - Updated - - -

People aren't punished for playing the game.

They are. By having to repeat same key on lower difficulty if they:
inv someone who randomly leaves.
someone gets random dc
server randomly crashes
dungeon bugs out (happened multiple times that people randomly fall through the texture. an example)
server lags
etc, etc, etc.

most of these scenarios would doom someone to repeat same key on lower difficulty and after that repeat the SAME difficulty they had, but pure rng key.

So if an emergency happens and forces me away from the computer, I won't be able to use the LFD tool for 1/3/5/7 days?
So if I get DC'ed and the group disbands before I return, I won't be able to use the LFD tool for 1/3/5/7 days?

If it happens once = you would get no punishment for it.
If it happens 3 times? Well maybe you do deserve couple hrs "cooldown".
If it happens 15 times? Yeah... LFD is not for you. Stop ruining others peoples' free time and effort.

You really can't see the abuse this would cause?

Abuse? You can literally do the same thing right now- Just snipe X dungeon X key lvl in LFD tool. It just takes a bit longer to get what you wish.

What abuse are you talking about?

No. Just because you "put effort" into something, doesn't mean you should be automatically be handed things. If you fail to accomplish the task. Running M+ is a risk/reward thing, i.e., finish the dungeon in time, you get higher key, fail to finish the dungeon in time, you get a lower key.

Not to mention, from what I read in your post, you didn't "put effort" at all. Just queueing isn't "putting effort". To claim you "put effort" you should've said that you checked the group leader's IO and m+ ratings, as well as those in the group. Did you?

Choosing content (difficulty and dungeon you wish to play) is nothing "automatically handed".
There is a risk of success/failure - yes. It's still present even if youre able to choose what lvl/dungeon you wish to play. But having RNG risk of getting favorite/most hated key is extremely.... not fun.

Gearing my characters, enchanting them, learning rotations, gathering/buying consumables IS putting effort.

Your key dictates the difficulty. That's the whole point about the keys.


Nope. Again, risk/reward thing. If you forfeit, for whatever reason, then you key level should drop.


Then make your own group. Or participate only in friends/guild groups if you want to minimize those issues.

So... your point is? Keys should be rng slot machine? And we shouldn't be able to choose content we play?

If someone gets DC, my key should also drop? If server crashes my key should also drop? If boss glitches (happened MANY times) my key should also drop?

Then make your own group. Or participate only in friends/guild groups if you want to minimize those issues.

Everything I said above can happen in premade group too. And then we're punished for having to do 2 extra keys before we go for higher 1.
Got my point now?

[casecase89]

Stop punishing players for wanting to play your game, Blizzard.
Started AV +18 > tank dies on first boss > we CR him > in same moment DPS leaves = deplated.
Started Temple +16 > healer dies on trash (before first boss) > DPS leaves = deplated.
Started NO +15 > healer gets "dc" (he was back by the time our 2 dpsers left).

STOP PUNISHING PEOPLE FOR PLAYING YOUR GAME!

Either do 1 of these:

1. Give 1/3/5/7... days RESTRICTION from using LFD tool to person who leaves dungeon before timer runs out (or gets voted out).

2. DONT deplate key lvl if someone leaves before timer ends.

Someone invested time into that +15, 17, 20, 22.... key. They shouldn't waste time to get lower RNG key if something goes wrong. People should be able to keep their key level. If they want lower lvl > they talk to NPC in Valdrakken.

3. Make us choose dungeon difficulty on "key console" before we even start the dungeon.

4. Give us option to vote to "forfeit" the key so that group may disband without any consequences/punishes if it's obvious that healer/tank/dpsers can't pull numbers.

Wasted whole weekend evening into Qing into grps just to leave the dun before killing first boss.


edit: swapped word "ban" with "restriction" in using LFD tool. Since it seems many people got triggered by that 1 word without looking at whole concept.
+ added 4th option.

I feel you, but there is no real answer without someone being done wrong. People drop and that is part of it. It does make the game sorta suck. I run as many runs with my guild tank ( he is the requirement for me to even bother ) that I can fit in, and that is it. I don't do M+ for fun, it isn't fun, the system isn't set up to be fun for pug due to the very nature of the content. Pugging is like russian roulette. Get a dumb tank that pulls too much and blows the key right off the rip ( looking at you AV ), or a healer that stands in the bad and causes a wipe, or 2 dps get blown up for some other reason at the start of a boss fight, you more than likely have someone dropping out of the key if its any higher than 13. I do at least 2 16-19s with my guild, if I can get more in and I fill all 3 vault slots, hell yeah, otherwise, I will do 12s and 13s for the rest or all of them and call it a day. I personally cannot stand pugging mid or high keys. Once they go past 15 or 16, the opportunity to have my time wasted increases exponentially over minor group mistakes. Like you, I had 3 runs burned back to back before. It has only happened once, but that was around an hour of me putting groups together to hearth out right after starting. It was highly annoying, but it is sadly part of the game and there isn't any real way for something to be done about it without it being overdone. Even if they were to mark how many groups you drop each week, so people could see before inviting how many runs they dipped out on... how do you tell the leavers from the 4 other people who got screwed? There is no right way. I limit how much I do M+ on my main and run lower keys on alts to fill out the week. I don't understand why i bother on other toons, as I am going to get to the same point within the community and be stuck there in the limbo of shit pug runs.

[Squigglyo]

I join a group for 2 reasons.

To time it.
Or to just finish it.


1st option I WILL leave if its clearly not getting timed.
2nd option I WILL leave if its clearly gunna be a 2 hour slog.

Just because I join a group does not mean I'm obligated to carry them.


You wanna put in punishments to stop people leaving then all your going to do is stop the 'better' players considering the lower players for groups.

[munkeyinorbit]

I wish i had this problem. I can't even get into groups.

What sort of error are you getting when you create your own!? Maybe raise a ticket with blizzard. It's kind of weird that you can't make your own key.

[Palapop]

I feel you, but there is no real answer without someone being done wrong. People drop and that is part of it. It does make the game sorta suck. I run as many runs with my guild tank ( he is the requirement for me to even bother ) that I can fit in, and that is it. I don't do M+ for fun, it isn't fun, the system isn't set up to be fun for pug due to the very nature of the content. Pugging is like russian roulette. Get a dumb tank that pulls too much and blows the key right off the rip ( looking at you AV ), or a healer that stands in the bad and causes a wipe, or 2 dps get blown up for some other reason at the start of a boss fight, you more than likely have someone dropping out of the key if its any higher than 13. I do at least 2 16-19s with my guild, if I can get more in and I fill all 3 vault slots, hell yeah, otherwise, I will do 12s and 13s for the rest or all of them and call it a day. I personally cannot stand pugging mid or high keys. Once they go past 15 or 16, the opportunity to have my time wasted increases exponentially over minor group mistakes. Like you, I had 3 runs burned back to back before. It has only happened once, but that was around an hour of me putting groups together to hearth out right after starting. It was highly annoying, but it is sadly part of the game and there isn't any real way for something to be done about it without it being overdone. Even if they were to mark how many groups you drop each week, so people could see before inviting how many runs they dipped out on... how do you tell the leavers from the 4 other people who got screwed? There is no right way. I limit how much I do M+ on my main and run lower keys on alts to fill out the week. I don't understand why i bother on other toons, as I am going to get to the same point within the community and be stuck there in the limbo of shit pug runs.

I join a group for 2 reasons.

To time it.
Or to just finish it.


1st option I WILL leave if its clearly not getting timed.
2nd option I WILL leave if its clearly gunna be a 2 hour slog.

Just because I join a group does not mean I'm obligated to carry them.


You wanna put in punishments to stop people leaving then all your going to do is stop the 'better' players considering the lower players for groups.

question to both of you: do you think "indestructible" keys would change many things in both scenarios?
keyholder wouldn't feel punished if someone leaves grp who thinks (s)he can do better than that?

[SinR]

Yep... tonight in my run heal DCed. Came back 5 mins later but it was too late obv...

So your solution is to lock the person that went offline from something outside of his control is to ban them from using LFG tool.

- - - Updated - - -

What sort of error are you getting when you create your own!? Maybe raise a ticket with blizzard. It's kind of weird that you can't make your own key.

Sounds like hes playing the dreaded "OFF META"

[Palapop]

So your solution is to lock the person that went offline from something outside of his control is to ban them from using LFG tool.

As I mentioned earlier- vote would be available once someone is offline for 10-15+ mins.

on 1 vote kick there would be no penalties.
3rd? something maybe?
5th? something yes?
10th? guarantee yes?

there would also be option to vote to forfeit the key.


Or, no one would even bat an eye if key wasn't deplated. Do you think that would be ideal solution? Indestructible key + no penalties for leavers?

[Ielenia]

They are. By having to repeat same key on lower difficulty if they:
inv someone who randomly leaves.
someone gets random dc

That is not the game punishing them. That is one player making it harder for the others.

server randomly crashes
dungeon bugs out (happened multiple times that people randomly fall through the texture. an example)
server lags
etc, etc, etc.

That is not the game punishing you. To say it's 'punishing' you, it means you're explicitly saying that those things happen with the intention of screwing you over.

Abuse? You can literally do the same thing right now- Just snipe X dungeon X key lvl in LFD tool. It just takes a bit longer to get what you wish.

What abuse are you talking about?

"We're not going to finish it on time. Let's reset and try again."

Choosing content (difficulty and dungeon you wish to play) is nothing "automatically handed".

Except that is not what I was talking about. I was responded to your "I invested time to get this +20, so I should be able to repeat the same level if something goes wrong". Sorry, but that's not how it works, nor it shouldn't.

So... your point is? Keys should be rng slot machine? And we shouldn't be able to choose content we play?

It's not a slot machine. The affixes are hard-locked each week. There is no "rng slot machine" there. The level of your key depends on your previous week's highest key and if you timed or didn't time it. There is no "rng slot machine" there. The only variation that you cannot control is for which dungeon your key is for. But that is easily remedied by asking your guild if they have a specific key you want. You can also re-roll your key when you finish a m+ dungeon of your key's level or above, provided it wasn't your key used in the run.

If someone gets DC, my key should also drop? If server crashes my key should also drop? If boss glitches (happened MANY times) my key should also drop?

Yes, yes, yes and yes. Shit happens. Not going to comment on the alleged rate of boss glitched aside from saying "I don't believe you".

Everything I said above can happen in premade group too. And then we're punished for having to do 2 extra keys before we go for higher 1.
Got my point now?

If your friends and guild mates are the kind that often quit groups because "the key is busted", then I question your choice in friends and guild. I would have dropped them like flies if they did that to me. In fact, I would've never invited them to my group to begin with.