Seriously, DO SOMETHING, stop punishing players!

[Clozer]

Just don't deplete keys. Why is that even a thing to begin with? Add some random trader in a city that randomly downgrades your key and done. If people wanna start over with the same key until they make it - just let them.

Now someone leaving isn't punishing anymore outside of the usual "well I've spent 10 minutes starting this group/key".

[erifwodahs]

While a lot of this is said with rage, and all the punishments for leaving feel overly-punishing I agree that the key system is poorly implemented.

Personally, I am all for just having the system be like GRs in D3. Have you completed that difficulty? Congrats as long as you have a key for that dungeon you can choose to do any difficulty up to +1 - +3 higher than your currently cleared difficulty of that dungeon based time. You progress each dungeon individually and the key is just a key to the M+ version of that dungeon with no difficulty attached.

Been saying this for years!

[Bunta]

I kind of like the idea of forfeiting the run with no punishment (i.e. your key does not fall a level) but with the restriction that no bosses are down. If you down one boss your key is automatically going to deplete if you disband or complete over time. That way if pugging and people do the usual leave after one failed pull the key holder isn't punished to such a degree as they did put in the effort to get to that level.

[shane brannigan]

Simple solution. Have limited counter of consequence free leaves per week, lets say between three and five hypothetically.
After you've left so many keys that week your weekly chest reward gets halved, And to stop the hostage taking people are so afraid of add a 10 minutes over time starting when the dungeon timer ends after which you can leave without being penalised. Also you know a vote to quit needing 3/5 votes.

They need to do something to punish leavers because like it or not, it is a real problem. I've had friends quit over the last few weeks because of compounding stress from pugging M+ at higher keys, and the truth is if it doesn't hurt they won't learn. right now there's basically nothing anchoring people to groups, and repeat leavers are hurting the community in a real way. Then people get frustrated voice their opinions on a forum and get the business from randos adding to their frustrations and they quit eventually. So If I'm going to be real I want blizzard to get draconian as fuck with punishments for M+ leaving and any abusing the system.

They need to start punishing players to stop punishing players.

[Azharok]

Simple solution. Have limited counter of consequence free leaves per week, lets say between three and five hypothetically.
After you've left so many keys that week your weekly chest reward gets halved, And to stop the hostage taking people are so afraid of add a 10 minutes over time starting when the dungeon timer ends after which you can leave without being penalised. Also you know a vote to quit needing 3/5 votes.

They need to do something to punish leavers because like it or not, it is a real problem. I've had friends quit over the last few weeks because of compounding stress from pugging M+ at higher keys, and the truth is if it doesn't hurt they won't learn. right now there's basically nothing anchoring people to groups, and repeat leavers are hurting the community in a real way. Then people get frustrated voice their opinions on a forum and get the business from randos adding to their frustrations and they quit eventually. So If I'm going to be real I want blizzard to get draconian as fuck with punishments for M+ leaving and any abusing the system.

They need to start punishing players to stop punishing players.

Simpler solution, don't play with randoms.

Why should I have to waste 50 minutes in a HoV that might not even be completed just so that I don't get punished ?

You guys realise that in most scenarios where people drop the group midway through (or sometimes sooner) is because on some level they don't think the group has what it takes to FINISH the dungeons, let alone time it.

The simpler solution would be to actually read through the dungeon journal, and practice lower keys (which has been repeated ad nauseum now), practice rotations, you know "git gud". It's become a snarky commentary, but on some level it's still holds some truth to it.

Had a WW monk do TANK dps in a CoS 17 for crying out loud, still timed it because CoS is easy and the other two DPS were doing more than enough, but if that WW had people of his skill level in that key, doomed key. Good luck timing it. And this stuff happens daily.

Bad player doesn't understand why other players leave over dumb shit he/she did, then comes on MMO-C to rant about how all the meanies keep dropping keys after he just walked in puddles of fire and ate frontals on every other trash pack.

[klaps_05]

It's rather hard to find players who fit the right rio score right now, as the vast majority seem to have very low scores.

So if you take too much time, the players that are already in the group will start leaving, especially the tank and/or healer because they know they can just get an instant invite into another group, as well as the guy with cyrillic letters in his name because he has 0 patience and is the first to leave a group anyway.

So trying to get the best of the best just means cycling people for an hour or so. Who does that?!

No one said to wait and invite the best of the best, but my guess is OP listed a group, invited the first few ppl that signed up and wonders why his runs fail. If people are so impatient and cant wait 5-10 min to set up a group, then they will probably be also the first to bail at the smallest hint of trouble in the dungeon.

[shane brannigan]

see this is exactly the kind belittling statement I'm talking about.

maybe, people want to/ have to play with Randoms for circumstantial reasons.

[Azharok]

see this is exactly the kind belittling statement I'm talking about.

maybe, people want to/ have to play with Randoms for circumstantial reasons.

I pug a fair bit, I don't experience that many leavers, this is purely confirmation bias, people leave his keys, common denominator is him, ergo : he must be doing something wrong.

Be more selective of the groups you join, who you invite to your keys, your success rate should go up.

[MrLachyG]

Stop punishing players for wanting to play your game, Blizzard.
Started AV +18 > tank dies on first boss > we CR him > in same moment DPS leaves = deplated.
Started Temple +16 > healer dies on trash (before first boss) > DPS leaves = deplated.
Started NO +15 > healer gets "dc" (he was back by the time our 2 dpsers left).

STOP PUNISHING PEOPLE FOR PLAYING YOUR GAME!

Either do 1 of these:

1. Give 1/3/5/7... days RESTRICTION from using LFD tool to person who leaves dungeon before timer runs out (or gets voted out).

2. DONT deplate key lvl if someone leaves before timer ends.

Someone invested time into that +15, 17, 20, 22.... key. They shouldn't waste time to get lower RNG key if something goes wrong. People should be able to keep their key level. If they want lower lvl > they talk to NPC in Valdrakken.

3. Make us choose dungeon difficulty on "key console" before we even start the dungeon.

4. Give us option to vote to "forfeit" the key so that group may disband without any consequences/punishes if it's obvious that healer/tank/dpsers can't pull numbers.

Wasted whole weekend evening into Qing into grps just to leave the dun before killing first boss.


edit: swapped word "ban" with "restriction" in using LFD tool. Since it seems many people got triggered by that 1 word without looking at whole concept.
+ added 4th option.

I think your second solution is the best one. as for the first suggestion, it's too easy to abuse it. what if someone has a legitimate reason for leaving? an emergency situation perhaps. what if some asshole group leader decides he wants to replace someone right before the final boss and summons another in? (I don't know if you can do that). What if a healer leaves a key because they're getting flamed by dps who are standing in bad and not interrupting?

there is no easy solution for this problem, although your second idea is a great one. We already have an npc who can drop keys, so why drop keys if you fail.

[Soikona]

I don’t see this as a blizz problem, but a community problem. However, there is room for blizz to improve it. On that, the pressure to do keys to be relevant in a high guild for raiding has made me stop playing. I stopped a few weeks ago at 7/8 mythic and I don’t miss it.

As much as I love raiding, the requirements has just got too high. Ranging from the gold needed for the good consumables, and time investments into keys. I had to start buying more tokens cause I don’t have the time to do both keys and farming. I will be keeping an eye on this though, if the situation improves I will be back in a heart beat.

[shane brannigan]

I pug a fair bit, I don't experience that many leavers, this is purely confirmation bias, people leave his keys, common denominator is him, ergo : he must be doing something wrong.

Be more selective of the groups you join, who you invite to your keys, your success rate should go up.

I'm trying to apply the lenses of a community wide problem here, not a me or you. I see leavers maybe once every 30 or so dungeons normally around the +16 because you have fresh keystone masters mixing with 2500 who don't care enough to compete leaderboards but are also elitist enough to expect +++chests from guys with 1800-2000 on their own keys. but some end up quitting because of players with this me centric outlook, then we take that apply it to the whole wow community and it's like a thousand instances leaving happening a hour. and maybe 5% of players affect will eventually quit.

I don't know maybe I'm just in the wrong for forming legitimate friendships on MMOs based on if someone is cool over if they're pro, and trying to play with them.

But nah I do believe draconian punishments that bar repeat offenders from their golden good boy box at the end of the week, is the way to go about this problem.
Honestly If someone can't not leave 5 times a week, they're probably the problem. someone might DC once a week what that's what ever because 4 more chancer right. maybe you have to leave because they wanted something fast before they have to leave for work, that's understandable. But still on them and they can ask to vote quit. but "we're not going to time, I'm carrying these noobs" is not a legitimate excuse. especially if you're like me and just que up for random 16's because you did your weekly and a just want a easy few focuses/valor. if did that 5 times in one week yes please punish me I did a bad thing. I queued up with a rating that suggested I'm a player of quality, I'm gonna leave the moment anyone fails.

also personally the whole the time wasted argument in defence of leaver is just the weakest thing ever. you wasted 4x the man hours by leaving, arguable more factoring in monetary costs. and their skill doesn't devalue their time. outside that objecting to punishment for causing a collective harm reeks of self interest rather than what's good for the game/ it's community.

Don't forget we're on a 3rd party forum. Anyone that posts here regularly are part of the loud minority, not the silent suffering majority. we aren't every player some of use just show up because we see a topic show up for the 1000th time and would like to voice an outside opinion for once.

I mean fuck, why is my World of Warcraft now a Watered down DnD MMO with little wildstar fox people, and no faction conflict narrative. blizzard already catered to cry babies that couldn't handle pvp servers so now we got war mode. So why shouldn't they do something just as drastic about a actual legitimate problem. Other than this, this expansion has been great, you know toxic side of the community ruining it for people.

[Goat7]

Yeah bruh u gotta make some friends or get into a guild that likes doing keys, esp high lvl keys on the regular. Otherwise you shit out of luck my friend.

[Azharok]

I'm trying to apply the lenses of a community wide problem here, not a me or you. I see leavers maybe once every 30 or so dungeons normally around the +16 because you have fresh keystone masters mixing with 2500 who don't care enough to compete leaderboards but are also elitist enough to expect +++chests from guys with 1800-2000 on their own keys.

This tells me all I need to know.

So if I see one leaver (or leave myself) once every 30 or so dungeons, and you've experienced that 1 time every 30 or so dungeon. That's
96% of dungeons that are completed (didn't say in time, just completed), how is the 4% (rounding) of leavers you and I experience a problem that needs fixing ? It's a fringe event, it does not happen often enough to warrant fixing.

If people are experiencing higher rates of people ditching the key, there must be other things to consider : are they contributing to the key, did they pick the group members carefully. There's a reason M+ is designed to scale.

I don't know maybe I'm just in the wrong for forming legitimate friendships on MMOs based on if someone is cool over if they're pro, and trying to play with them.

There's a difference between carrying your guild-mates or friends who suck at the game and carrying randoms. We probably be on discord to start off, and then I guess it would be a teachable moment, they might learn a trick or two.

also personally the whole the time wasted argument in defence of leaver is just the weakest thing ever. you wasted 4x the man hours by leaving, arguable more factoring in monetary costs. and their skill doesn't devalue their time. outside that objecting to punishment for causing a collective harm reeks of self interest rather than what's good for the game/ it's community.

If I am trapped in a key that won't be timed (meaning : multiple fuck-ups, if no-one dies and it's out of time, then that's just poor play from us) or that won't be completed to +10minutes overtime before i can leave without penalty, I (and others) will just go afk. You're better off keeping it at is, and redo key one level lower, less time wasted for everyone involved. There is no scenario or punishement that blizzard could enforce short of actual bans that would prevent "leavers" to game the system. And if anything it would hurt pugging more, because now you'll HAVE to play with people you know or else fear the ban... Which is convenient since that's the crowd the system was designed to cater too. You can also discuss before inserting the key that you are going for completion rather than "in time", so everyone knows what to expect to some extent.

I've left my own keys for crying out loud, after inviting what I thought were "good enough" players for the job. Fastest brick ever, it's fine, just drop group and queue again.

You're all making it sound like the "leaver" is out there to get you, to hurt you, he's not. Key goes sideways he bails, just wants his loot and his io, doesn't care about you, nor should you. It's a video-game no hard feelings.

[Cynical Asshole]

Yeah bruh u gotta make some friends or get into a guild that likes doing keys, esp high lvl keys on the regular. Otherwise you shit out of luck my friend.

Tried that. Guess what, every guild has its own cliques of people who only group up with eachother, and they're not gonna invite your ass. Like MAYBE if you're a tank or healer you can MAYBE get into a clique, but if you're a dps you may as well fuck off.

I've been in so many damn guilds and the only difference I noticed from being guildless is that sometimes I could see some green text, which is why I'm done with guilds, they're all useless if you're not in the IN group.

[Palapop]

Simpler solution, don't play with randoms.

Why should I have to waste 50 minutes in a HoV that might not even be completed just so that I don't get punished ?

You guys realise that in most scenarios where people drop the group midway through (or sometimes sooner) is because on some level they don't think the group has what it takes to FINISH the dungeons, let alone time it.

Dont play with pugers then?
And let pugers play without beint punished if something goes wrong?

Gotta love your mindset where noone is ever allowed to have ANY mistake.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah bruh u gotta make some friends or get into a guild that likes doing keys, esp high lvl keys on the regular. Otherwise you shit out of luck my friend.

And if were all friends, all good players with high numbers... and then aerver crashes? And were left with deplated key?

[Makabreska]

And if were all friends, all good players with high numbers... and then aerver crashes? And were left with deplated key?

Ye, what then? Why are you bringing up a completely out-of-players-control example? Should Blizz also do something about that Mythic Raszageth 100% kill attempt that was stopped by a server crash?

Dont play with pugers then?
And let pugers play without beint punished if something goes wrong?

Gotta love your mindset where noone is ever allowed to have ANY mistake.

Why do you care if puggers wont get punished, if you wont play with them and they wont affect your runs? Are you throwing these crap ideas here to improve M+, or do you want to have a revenge on peeps who left your key for w/e reason?

[Azharok]

Dont play with pugers then?
And let pugers play without beint punished if something goes wrong?

Gotta love your mindset where noone is ever allowed to have ANY mistake.

That's why you can put your key as "completion" or specify "weekly". If the party leader/ key holder doesn't specify, the assumption is "timed".

People are allowed to make mistakes, that's not the issue. The issue is expecting people to stay in a key 15 and up, when the mistakes made are basic stuff (dying to frontals, standing in shit, ass pulling, not interrupting important spells, not knowing boss mechanics, etc). You can't make any significant progress if those baseline things aren't fixed first. And a 16 isn't the place to learn that.

We all have "days with and days without". If you're not bringing your A game, just play a few key lvls lower and don't punish 4 other people with poor performance ?

[baskev]

Stop punishing players for wanting to play your game, Blizzard.
Started AV +18 > tank dies on first boss > we CR him > in same moment DPS leaves = deplated.
Started Temple +16 > healer dies on trash (before first boss) > DPS leaves = deplated.
Started NO +15 > healer gets "dc" (he was back by the time our 2 dpsers left).

STOP PUNISHING PEOPLE FOR PLAYING YOUR GAME!

Either do 1 of these:

1. Give 1/3/5/7... days RESTRICTION from using LFD tool to person who leaves dungeon before timer runs out (or gets voted out).

2. DONT deplate key lvl if someone leaves before timer ends.

Someone invested time into that +15, 17, 20, 22.... key. They shouldn't waste time to get lower RNG key if something goes wrong. People should be able to keep their key level. If they want lower lvl > they talk to NPC in Valdrakken.

3. Make us choose dungeon difficulty on "key console" before we even start the dungeon.

4. Give us option to vote to "forfeit" the key so that group may disband without any consequences/punishes if it's obvious that healer/tank/dpsers can't pull numbers.

Wasted whole weekend evening into Qing into grps just to leave the dun before killing first boss.


edit: swapped word "ban" with "restriction" in using LFD tool. Since it seems many people got triggered by that 1 word without looking at whole concept.
+ added 4th option.

First off saying the healer as a "dc" between qoutes is silly. If it was him/her leaving than he would have just gone away. Coming back means real dc.....
other then that

1.) yes and no. If you leave because some idiot does not know/follow tactics etc is not the same as just leaving because you are mad/sad. But a system should be in place for serial leavers.

2.)...no opinion about that. sounds decent.

3.) a fair thing to ask.

4. No, because that can be abused...run not going well? just forfeit it. I would only accept this if it only happens once every week or month. So you can do this 1 time a month/week ( or other time limit) and not more.

BUUUUUUTTTT

you chose your group. Do not do it with rando's. Do it with a guild/friends.

[Rageonit]

Just don't deplete keys. Why is that even a thing to begin with? Add some random trader in a city that randomly downgrades your key and done. If people wanna start over with the same key until they make it - just let them.

Now someone leaving isn't punishing anymore outside of the usual "well I've spent 10 minutes starting this group/key".

IMO, the whole key item downgrade/upgrade thing is a dated mechanic. Just give players UI to pick any key level they want (after "unlocking" it by timing a lower level key). I think Blizzard is afraid to do that, because players would obviously prefer some keys more than others (like doing SBG over and over for vault), but surely you can give some incentives for players to run varied keys? Like, dunno, any dungeon can be counted only once for the weeks vault or something.

[Ludek]

BUUUUUUTTTT

you chose your group. Do not do it with rando's. Do it with a guild/friends.

While yes, doing content with a trusted group is the best solution, why is everyone posting it as the one and only true solution - if there is a way to improve the PUG world with Blizz doing some adjustments to the system, why not to do it?